ProfTournesol 956 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) ;2880696']This is the thread about Ukraine (and the ongoing conflict) - this is why I am asking to learn more about it.The role and involvement of Russia is pretty clear. If you can contribute something in-depth and long term' date=' feel free to share it. But please spare us with this simplistic response and naive world view.[/quote'] I don't see "simplistic response" in this topic. I'm very eager to see some pro Russian views who are not pre digested propaganda coming from Putin's controlled medias, such as "Nazis at the gate". More about the "satellite images" above : (VICE NEWS) US Claims Russian Military Equipment Is Being Used for Attacks in Ukraine Ahead of Ceasefire Edited February 14, 2015 by ProfTournesol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 14, 2015 Separatists have declared that they wont honour the ceasefire (should be in effect in 3 hours) in the area of Debaltseve. They intend to keep attacking the town. Poroshenko has announced that he will proclaim nationwide martial law if the ceasefire is not honoured. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 14, 2015 ;2880696']If you can contribute something in-depth or long term background' date=' feel free to share it.But please spare us with this simplistic response and naive world view.[/quote'] I don't really understand your point. You came here just to say that your opinion and sources are better than anyone else? That you have the real truth and everyone else is simple and naive? Should we all bow and say "Yes bwana"? If you have what you think are interesting videos and news reports, you are very welcome to share them. But please respect other people's point of view, specially if are people who have been commenting in this thread for months and you just arrived. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) ;2880688']What annoys me following this thread is the shallowness and naivety on display here.Where are all the military experts from this community? Or is everyone too scared to post in public due to the total surveillance we live in nowadays? Like equipement unique to Russia beign used there? There's plenty. Interesting fact. About 1 year ago wikipedia listed Russia and Kyrgyzstan as sole users of VSS rifle. After photos of separatists with these rifles were released, suddenly there's 5 new users, obviously none having a linked source When soldiers with new uniforms and AK-74Ms, complete with grenade launchers, took controll over Crimea, Russia claimed they are local boys armed in milsurp shop. When photos showed AA systems entering Ukraine, Russia claimed they are just security for convoy. When "separatists" posed to photos with VSS and KSVK rifles, Russia claimed they could get then anywhere, despite arms not beign sold or used outside Russia. When proof were shown that Russian soldiers fight in Ukraine, Russia claimed they're on vacations When satelite photos shower MLRS shelling Ukraine from Russia, Russia claimed it's rebels who crossed borders. When Russian soldiers were captured in Ukraine, Russia claimed they "just got lost" If Russia gets caught red-handed, will claim it's not hers Edited February 14, 2015 by boota Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) ;2880688']Where can you see anything there?If you want to actually see Russian artillery' date=' just go to liveleak or some decent YT channel, or follow some good twitter accounts .. The sad part is that the US would easily have the technical means to prove the Russian involvement on the various levels (military equipment, vehicles, reconnaissance, surveillance, communication, experts and special forces, training, planning, etc). The question you should ask yourself is why the US gov/military does not do that. --- What annoys me following this thread is the shallowness and naivety on display here. Where are all the military experts from this community? Or is everyone too scared to post in public due to the total surveillance we live in nowadays? It would be great to learn more about topics like CiA involvement, relation to China's interests (ie Crimea), military industry and science in SE part of Ukraine, origins of the shooters during Euromaidan, history and current strength and role of the various far right groups in Ukraine, information unveiled by wikileaks or other investigative journalists, role of formed battalions in military, combat operations and various security positions in government, background, connections and roles of P. Poroshenko/A. Yatsenyuk/Y. Tymoshenko, as well as other oligarchs. And what do the average people in the various areas of Ukraine think these days and how does it change over time? --- Ross Kemp visits Ukraine to investigate the rise of the Nazi Far Right in the country's civil war with rebels of Donbass http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=98d_1423931054 The Right Sector of Euromaidan [eng subs] Part 1: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c02_1423550310 Part 2: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8e7_1423564893 Snipers at Maidan - the untold Ukraine story - Newsnight http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=17e_1423862472 The untold story of the Maidan massacre http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31359021 --- Or if you want to follow more the Ukraine agenda: http://liveuamap.com/ I almost call it already the "PINOCCHIO Conflict" due to misleading informations, half informations, propaganda or whatever from all sides. Yes, the question is why officials do not show a lot of hard evidence. Everyone knows, that Russia plays a role in this conflict but it seems there is a huge jungle and what seems obvious are at the end unsufficiant official informations. The new satellite image is another example, you see actually nothing when it comes to specific informations. But the image is released with a claim, yeah maybe the gear used on this image even its hard to see is from Russia. But it doesnt show that these are russian troops, there is almost no hard evidence officially and this is actually disturbing when you compare it with the flood of news reports about it mostly copied from the same press agencies. There are plenty images around the web about russian equipment, but its just the equipment and doesnt show hard evidence of an invasion or about thousands of russian troops. It is interesting that journalists in the Ukraine on site are often describe the situation with a different view, especially when it comes to informations about the seperatists fighting on the frontlines. And if only assumptions pop up i.e. "the russians troops are maybe hiding" as an example from a french Journalist working for "Le Monde" just some days ago but this Journalist isnt the only one who did report about the situation in a similar way. Annoying is aswell that you suddenly read that officials from the Ukraine did deliver images to the US used to confirm the claims about a russian invasion and which are important for a decision to arm the Ukraine with lethal weapons. The misleading images got debunked and have nothing in common with the conflict in the Ukraine. The Washington Post was the only major western newspaper I could find yesterday which did release a very tiny, rather hidden hint to this incident but included in an article not related to the conflict in the Ukraine. Someone has to ask if this was really just a mistake at the highest level of politics, this prompts questions. We had incidents in other conflicts over the years with misleading informations and lies, people are in the meanwhile more critical. Edited February 14, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
St. Jimmy 272 Posted February 14, 2015 DPR press about the agreement: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 14, 2015 DPR press about the agreement: So basically they contradict all what was agreed in Minsk? :rolleyes: As if I had predict that a few days ago... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 14, 2015 So basically they contradict all what was agreed in Minsk? :rolleyes:As if I had predict that a few days ago... Didnt see the video yet, but let me guess.... It is about autonomy of the donbas and the situation at the cauldron ? Will later watch it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 14, 2015 Didnt see the video yet, but let me guess....It is about autonomy of the donbas and the situation at the cauldron ? Will later watch it. Basically he says that they interpret the Minsk agreement as: - The whole Donetsk Oblast is part of the DPR and the Ukrainian army is occupying half of it. - That the Minsk Agreement gives the independence "de facto" of the DPR - They will keep their army and borders. - And the Ukrainian Gov. has to pay them all the expenses of the last year. All that because they conquered those rights with their arms. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) Basically he says that they interpret the Minsk agreement as: - The whole Donetsk Oblast is part of the DPR and the Ukrainian army is occupying half of it. - That the Minsk Agreement gives the independence "de facto" of the DPR - They will keep their army and borders. - And the Ukrainian Gov. has to pay them all the expenses of the last year. All that because they conquered those rights with their arms. Did watch it and some of the points which he did mentioned are reasonable but also raising questions: - vague formulations of the Minsk agreements; one of my previous post was the question what means "special status" (they want to be independant) - the cauldron: thats for sure a difficult situation; and not mentioned in the minsk agreement - actaully an important point/around 5000 ukrainian soldiers. + cease fire on the frontlines but what to do with the trapped soldiers if they do not give up fighting; cauldron changes into an internal operation of the DPR zone + cease fire will brake when ukrainian military is trying to interfere - they want a cease fire except the "internal situation with the cauldron"; does a completely cauldron really exist and new demarcation lines include the cauldron into the DPR zone ? What a shrewd affair..... I dont see everything he mentioned is in contradict to the Minsk agreement, but there is definately conflict potential due to vague formulations and insist on certain aims. Autonomy and federalization was rejected by Poroshenko. Seems like the seperatist leader did not have direct talks with the leadership of the Ukraine i.e. Poroshenko. Edited February 14, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted February 14, 2015 cease fire on the frontlines but what to do with the trapped soldiers if they do not give up fighting Actually Putin outright said these soldiers are supposed to surrender. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 14, 2015 The rebel leader basically said that they will continue attacking Debaltsevo as they don´t consider it to be part of the Minsk agreement. Then he sais that every attempt by the Ukrainian forces to break out, or to break through will be regarded as a violation of the ceasefire and that after that the rebels won´t be obliged to follow it anymore. That guy... FPDR He is basically saying that if those few thousand Ukrainians don´t surrender themselves and their weapons to the DPR, there is no ceasefire. He also does a 180° on all other terms of the Minsk agreement. Minsk has already failed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) The rebel leader basically said that they will continue attacking Debaltsevo as they don´t consider it to be part of the Minsk agreement. Then he sais that every attempt by the Ukrainian forces to break out, or to break through will be regarded as a violation of the ceasefire and that after that the rebels won´t be obliged to follow it anymore. That guy... FPDR He is basically saying that if those few thousand Ukrainians don´t surrender themselves and their weapons to the DPR, there is no ceasefire. He also does a 180° on all other terms of the Minsk agreement. Minsk has already failed. Copy of the translation in text form about Debaltsevo cauldron: I can state the following: we are going to cease fire along the entire territory of the DPR except the internal regions. Internal regions are around Debaltsevo. Any attempt of the UK Forces to brake out from this cauldron or to deblockade it, will be considered by us as a violation of the Minsk agreements. And naturally these attempts are going to be suppressed, the enemy is going to be neutralized. I have sent this order to the armed forces, so... everyone is ready, everyone is waiting for what whill happen next. And it is going to happen anyway, due to the simple reason: they are running out of food, they are running out of ammo and they need to rotate the personnel somehow, there are lots of injured there, believe me....thats why. The enemy will attempt to do it. Thats why the first point of the Minsk agreement is already violated by this.... @Tonic The ukrainian soldiers who are trapped need to surrender, thats it. Of course there is no cease fire if they dont do and use their arms. Provided the whole cauldron is really surrounded by DPR forces and behind the demarcation line. Edited February 14, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 14, 2015 Copy of the translation in text form about Debaltsevo cauldron:I can state the following: we are going to cease fire along the entire territory of the DPR except the internal regions. Internal regions are around Debaltsevo. Any attempt of the UK Forces to brake out from this cauldron or to deblockade it, will be considered by us as a violation of the Minsk agreements. And naturally these attempts are going to be suppressed, the enemy is going to be neutralized. I have sent this order to the armed forces, so... everyone is ready, everyone is waiting for what whill happen next. And it is going to happen anyway, due to the simple reason: they are running out of food, they are running out of ammo and they need to rotate the personnel somehow, there are lots of injured there, believe me....thats why. The enemy will attempt to do it. Thats why the first point of the Minsk agreement is already violated by this.... @Tonic The ukrainian soldiers who are trapped need to surrender, thats it. Of course there is no cease fire if they dont do and use their arms. Provided the whole cauldron is really surrounded by DPR forces and behind the demarcation line. No they do not need to surrender. The Minsk agreement is very clear: Immediate ceasefire across the whole front. If there is a pocket of Ukrainian soldiers fighting, then this is a front and the Separatists are not allowed to attack them any longer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 14, 2015 No they do not need to surrender. The Minsk agreement is very clear: Immediate ceasefire across the whole front. If there is a pocket of Ukrainian soldiers fighting, then this is a front and the Separatists are not allowed to attack them any longer. What do you think they will do if not surrender in a Cauldron inside enemy territory ? Whats your idea ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 14, 2015 What do you think they will do if not surrender in a Cauldron inside enemy territory ? Whats your idea ? A.: Negotiate a honourable retreat. B.: Supply drops by air. C.: The separatists follow the agreement and pull back from the positions they conquered during the last weeks. Restoration of Minsk 1. Surrendering themselves and all their gear to the separatists is not an option for the Ukrainians. After all those separatists might suddenly "have a different interpretation" of the agreement that all captives are to be released. And then Ukraine suddenly has a few thousand experienced soldiers less to defend their territory when the separatist "have a different interpretation" of where their borders are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) First time I hear of ceasefire that requires capitulation. Must be a Russian thing. Edited February 14, 2015 by boota Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 14, 2015 First time I hear of ceasefire that requires capitulation. Must be a Russian thing. Peace through power? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) A.: Negotiate a honourable retreat.B.: Supply drops by air. C.: The separatists follow the agreement and pull back from the positions they conquered during the last weeks. Restoration of Minsk 1. Surrendering themselves and all their gear to the separatists is not an option for the Ukrainians. After all those separatists might suddenly "have a different interpretation" of the agreement that all captives are to be released. And then Ukraine suddenly has a few thousand experienced soldiers less to defend their territory when the separatist "have a different interpretation" of where their borders are. Thats true, it would be quiete a defeat for the Government with the loss of military gear and soldiers. Well C seems rather satirical, they wont retreat within their own zone. Maybe A. with the monitoring of the OSCE. It is really a very fragile situation to brake the cease fire by both sides, its allegedly inside the DPR zone. Edited February 15, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) oxmox, do you actually understand what "ceasefire" means? It means sides refrain from shooting each other or preparing to do so, nothing more. It does not mean one side surrendering or abondoning their positions. If Ukraine decides to keep their units in Debaltsevo they can, as long as they will not attack Separatists positions. If they decide to abondon it, the only thing involving Seps is conditions at which Ukrainian soldiers pass through Sep controlled areas. And even that assuming Separatists actually surrounded it, since maps show they do not control mainroad and it vicinity. Edited February 15, 2015 by boota Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) oxmox, do you actually understand what "ceasefire" means? It means sides refrain from shooting each other or preparing to do so, nothing more. It does not mean one side surrendering or abondoning their positions. If Ukraine decides to keep their units in Debaltsevo they can, as long as they will not attack Separatists positions. If they decide to abondon it, the only thing involving Seps is conditions at which Ukrainian soldiers pass through Sep controlled areas. And even that assuming Separatists actually surrounded it, since maps show they do not control mainroad and it vicinity. I know what means ceasefire. But be honest, do you really think the seperatists will let those 5000 soldier with all the military gear just walk away. Pretty sure rather not. The mentioned surrender by me was just the idea to get out of the cauldron quickly with their dwindle of supply and to survive, this was probably a too human thought and not in the eyes of the military. It wasnt mean as a requirement for ceasefire. Anyway, here is the official ceasefire statement by the DPR : And this did happen just one hour after the ceasefire what many feared already. A ceasefire isnt probably always manageable within a short time but hopefully it will hold in the next hours and days. ( of course we all cant verify or know if the claims are correct). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGlzomxxNro Edited February 15, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Basically it was all a masquerade and the Pro-Russian leadership in agreement with Moscow will interpret the terms of the agreement as they please. No surprises here. Edited February 15, 2015 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ArmAMake 10 Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Some high-resolution maps. Information is actual to the current days. 1).http://voicesevas.cdnvideo.ru/img/825c264dc7155d83d14239754f2f56cc.jpg 2).http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/kot_ivanov/71733898/41200/41200_original.jpg 3).http://voicesevas.cdnvideo.ru/img/25f10bfc2dcbd1ab2a6f751de81de1e1.png Edited February 15, 2015 by ArmAMake Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 15, 2015 OK, how much can we trust russian maps? I bet Ukrainian maps show a completely different picture. How much can we trust those? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted February 15, 2015 OK, how much can we trust russian maps? I bet Ukrainian maps show a completely different picture. How much can we trust those? The second russian map is the most accurate I think. According to Ukraine they control some road, but the main road is too dangerous to use. Here's the NSDC map. The attacks are current, but the front is lagging behind. (Click for high resolution) As you can see the ceasefire is working out great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
