kireta21 13 Posted February 13, 2015 If only that, point 4 is actually very one-sided. "No foreign militians" means Ukraine is not allowed house foreign bases, troopers, or accept foreign aid in training, while Russia beign "officially not involved" doesn't really have to follow it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maio 293 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) TBH, I do not believe that the above will be respected. Decentralization for rebel regions by the end of 2015 This won't go well with the volunteer battalions&CO. Ukrainian control of the border with Russia by the end of 2015 Good one. Will the border guards be drafted from Donbass and Luhansk citizens :rolleyes: boota If only that, point 4 is actually very one-sided. "No foreign militians" means Ukraine is not allowed house foreign bases, troopers, or accept foreign aid in training, while Russia beign "officially not involved" doesn't really have to follow it. Nope. That point is referring to the separatists. Edited February 13, 2015 by Maio Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Armed forces of Ukraine near Debalzewo. The leading tank on the image shows a german transfer number plate. Some german news did call up to send them your idea of the story how the transfer number plate did get on this tank. Probably someone is a fan of this german town, one reader did suggest the photographer was too lazy to travel to the Ukraine and they did setup the scene in Germany, others talk about a loan from a sister town. Besides these satirical ideas, its a nice image from the current conflict around Debalzevo. What is your suggestion ? Edited February 13, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 13, 2015 Maybe a Ukrainian from Germany took his number plate with him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted February 13, 2015 There are so many tourists in Ukraine :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) More ideas from the comments: * the tank commander name is BORis * BOR means Batallion of Russia, Putin works for the CIA and sends arms to Ukraine * the tank is on holidays * Putin did photoshop the image * Old NVA (former army of the GDR) stocks on their last way The Borken Newspaper reports the following: Ukrainians advance with BOR-licence plate "The photo 'soldiers of the Ukrainian army near Debaltsewe' refers to a German temporary plate of the district of Borken mounted on a tank. That irritates me already. Can anyone tell me? "User "wauzbert " asked on TIME online, where the photo was published first. We can. At least partly. According to Karl Heinz Gördes, spokesman for the district of Borken, the licence plate was issued on September 9, 2011 - and indeed to an Ukrainian who claimed to use this number plate to transfer a truck to his home country. It is unclear who did mount it to an armored vehicle, apparently a soviet production. ---> :eek: "From an official point of view, the sign is now completely useless," says Gördes. Borkener Zeitung - google transl. Edited February 13, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted February 13, 2015 http://youtu.be/9_Ai50uStvY Cluster peace being used on Artemivsk for maximum peace coverage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 13, 2015 TBH, I do not believe that the above will be respected. 100% agree. IMHO this agreement is condemned to fail. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Besides these satirical ideas, its a nice image from the current conflict around Debalzevo.What is your suggestion ? I's say little creativity to keep morale up, like this plate [edit] translating from Cyrillic: PTN PNH - PuTiN Poshel Na Huy - Putin GTFO Edited February 13, 2015 by boota Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 13, 2015 I's say little creativity to keep morale up, like this platehttp://i58.tinypic.com/2gslnao.jpg What is written there? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 13, 2015 What is written there? ...the translation gives me this: PTN PNX Another google search says that PTN PNX means : Go Fuck Yourself Putin "Mad Max" would fit for this type of car. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted February 13, 2015 ...the translation gives me this: PTN PNXAnother google search says that PTN PNX means : Go Fuck Yourself Putin "Mad Max" would fit for this type of car. War makes people creative. You should check out some croatian self made APCs from the early stage of the Balkan wars :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Ukrainian parliament members providing misleading images to the US WASHINGTON — A delegation consisting of Ukrainian members of parliament, a paramilitary leader, and one Georgetown professor gave a senator’s office photos purportedly of the Russian military invading Ukraine that were later debunked. Several images of the Russian convoys appear to have been taken in 2008, during Russia’s conflict with Georgia. Given the similarities between the earlier images and those provided by the senator’s office. “These were presented to the Armed Services Committee from a delegation from Ukraine in December,†Harder said. “In December, we talked to them about publishing the photos and giving them the credit, and they were fine with that. We thoroughly checked our sources again prior to releasing the photos, and felt confident proceeding because the photos also match reporting. We are currently making calls to our sources.†Sen. Inhofe said in a statement: “The Ukrainian parliament members who gave us these photos in print form as if it came directly from a camera really did themselves a disservice. We felt confident to release these photos because the images match the reporting of what is going on in the region. I was furious to learn one of the photos provided now appears to be falsified from an AP photo taken in 2008. “The Ukrainian parliament members who gave us these photos in print form as if it came directly from a camera really did themselves a disservice,†Inhofe said in a statement. “We felt confident to release these photos because the images match the reporting of what is going on in the region. I was furious to learn one of the photos provided now appears to be falsified from an AP photo taken in 2008. This doesn’t change the fact that there is plenty of evidence Russia has made advances into the country with T-72 tanks and that pro-Russian separatists have been killing Ukrainians in cold blood.†Proof of Russia’s deep involvement in the conflict could spur members of Congress to back Inhofe’s bill to provide the Ukrainians with lethal aid. Press Release of the Embassy of Ukraine regarding regular shelling Ukrainian territory by the Russian forces (on August 1, 2014) (misleading images showed) http://mfa.gov.ua/en/news-feeds/foreign-offices-news/26360-pres-reliz-pu-v-tr-shhodo-chergovogo-obstrilu-rosijsykimi-vijsykovimi-ukrajinsykoji-teritoriji-na-skhodi-derzhavi-1-serpnya-2014-r-anglijsykoju-movoju http://freebeacon.com/national-security/exclusive-photos-show-russian-military-in-ukraine-arming-separatists/ http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/heres-the-ukrainian-delegation-that-gave-misleading-photos-t#.krR5BDyGP http://rt.com/news/232067-fake-photos-russian-army/ I wonder how this can happen, allegedly so many other images are around...... Edited February 13, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted February 13, 2015 Because there are always jurnalists who don't care about honesty as much as about getting views/beign paid. "Terrifying images from Donbas". Except actually from Chechenya, but who's gonna notice? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
St. Jimmy 272 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) This is my opinion about the war in Ukraine why it's still going on. I can make a pretty good example from my home country to explain things bit better but the explain isn't from history but I think this situation describes pretty well what's going on. So we have Ukraine, Crimea, East Ukraine and Russia and then we have rough split of people Ukrains and Russians. Let's pretend that Ukraine is Finland, Crimea is Ã…land (autonomous region in Finland that main language is Swedish just like Crimea was), East Ukraine is South West Coast of Finland and Russia is Sweden and then we have rough split of people Finnish and Swedish. Those who don't know much about Finland and Sweden, there's Swedish speaking minority in Finland that lives mostly on the coast of Finland and in Ã…land and we are neighbour brother countries so this should be a very good example. There just isn't anything so extreme nationalist movement going on in Finland that this would be very realistic situation. A prolonged crisis in "Finland" began on 21 November 2013, when then president "Kalle Gustaffson" suspended preparations for the implementation of an association agreement with "NATO". This decision resulted in mass protests by its opponents, known as "NATO friendlies". After months of such protests, "Gustaffson" was ousted by the protesters on 22 February 2014, when he fled the "Finland's" capital city of "Helsinki". Following his ousting, unrest enveloped the largely "Swedophone" "West and South West Coast of Finland", from where he had drawn most of his support. An ensuing political crisis in "Finnish" autonomous region of "Ã…land" resulted in the annexation of "Ã…land" by "Sweden" on 18 March. Subsequently, unrest in "Uusimaa" and "Pohjanmaan rannikko" oblasts of "Finland" evolved into a war between the post-revolutionary "Finnish" government and "pro-Swedish" insurgents. (I just took this from Wikipedia and replaced the quotes) Now you likely understand more and we can start to think is it right what "Sweden" and "Finnish-Swedish" that are called as 'separists' and 'terrorists' by the newly elected "Finnish" goverment and "Finnish" media. Well "Ã…land" is an autonomous region where majority are "Swedish" and their security was maybe bit threatened so it was maybe a very good thing that "Sweden" annexed "Ã…land". Who knows maybe there would be still a war between them and the goverment forces if that hadn't happened. Then the "W and SW Coast". Those "Finnish-Swedish" people have lived "W and SW Coast of Finland" for many generations. They were rebellious against the "NATO-friendlies" and the new goverment. "Finland" starts to say "Sweden" has cross the border and "FDF" moves to 'secure' the area. People didn't like the "FDF" in their area and they don't see any "Sweden army" attacking or invading them. Rebels and people made them leave maybe backed by "Sweden" but "Coasts" also have much military equipment to arm people. Bombing and fighting starts and "Finnish" media is saying that the 'separists' and "Sweden" are bombing, 'terrorising' and destroying cities and towns but the locals only see that the goverment forces "FDF" is bombing terrorising and attacking them. Then 'separists' are advancing growing and even "Finnish" people living under the bombings are getting angry about the goverment forces and are rebelling. Rebels are highly motivated to defend their own land and "Finnish" conscripts aren't very well motivated to fight and likely many of them are even forced to fight. This is how I've analyzed the situation roughly by myself and I don''t judge Russia too badly because what Ukraine is doing to their citizens is freaking horrible. It's like a Holocaust against East Ukraine except Ukraine is doing that with army and bombs. It's easy to blame Russia when it's so big country but when you think that in a 45 million people's country there are 7 million ethnic Russians (this is just a rough numerical thing and naturally doesn't mirror the exact real situation) then I can really see that Russia have some rights to defend the ethnic group there against the 'witch hunting'. Though naturally the defending/attacking also have political sides. It's again the nationalist extremes that started this war. Edited February 14, 2015 by St. Jimmy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) St. Jimmy allow me to use your premise Finland-Sweden conflict to try to explain what happened in Ukraine: It's more like if the Finnish President Gustaffson ( who is a well-known puppet of the Swedish Government, who funded his election ) is ousted by a vote in the Finnish Parliament after he ordered lethal methods to crash strong pro-NATO demonstrators occupying Helsinki's Senate Square. The new Finland's provisional government would remove Swedish as an official language in Finland, so no need for more compulsory education in "the other language" ( thing that most of Finnish Teenagers would welcome ). Then Sweden sends covertly small special operation teams to take the main villages in the Finnish Lapland. And later annexing it to Sweden. All that against the will of the Sami natives ( Tatars in Crimea ). After that the Swedish public media would throw all kinds of propaganda claiming that Swedish-Speaking minorities are persecuted in Finland, that the True Finns party is controlling all the Finnish Gov. actions and that they are awful racist that want to kill all the Swedish speaking population. Then later some teams of the Säpo ( Swedish equivalent of the FSB ) commanded by Sven Skytten, start guerrilla actions and occupied militarily different town halls in Åland and Finland Proper. All that even if the Swedish People's Party says that they are not feeling threatened at all and asking their Swedish-Speaking members to join the new Östersjön battalion ( Azov Battalion ) of the Finland's National Guard to fight against the Pro-Sweden. Also thousands of combatants from Sweden and Sweden friendly countries would come to Åland and Finland Proper to establish a puppet Pro-Swedish country. Not only that but the government of this fake new government is formed by different Swedish officials from the Stockholm area. As the Finnish Army can form a solid line and start advancing against the Pro-Sweden, the Swedish Gov. provides all kinds of means to the Pro-Sweden side and blaming the Finnish Gov of the worst atrocities ever. - - - Have you seen what would the Swedish "intelligent" Prime Minister achieve playing with the Finnish well known hate against the Finnish-Swedish and Sweden in order to punish Finland for wanting to take their own decisions and be closer to NATO. Anti-Swedish hate that's BTW quite important in real life in Finland ( I witnessed it a lot of times ). BTW the hypothetical desire of the populist True Finns party to want to remove Swedish as an official language and persecute all the Swedish speaking population. Is not excessively far fetched either... ( Yle ) Anonymous threats target Swedish-speaking public figures Yle reports that several Swedish-speaking or bilingual public figures have received hate mail or death threats over the past few days. ( Der Spiegel )Finland's Language War: Nationalists Seek End to Mandatory Swedish Lessons Members of the True Finns party and of Finland's ruling conservatives want to abolish compulsory Swedish tuition in schools. It is part of a growing right-wing campaign to assert a Finnish national identity at the expense of the Swedish minority. ( Language on the move ) Are Finns saying no to Swedish? Edited February 14, 2015 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted February 14, 2015 Another video of the cluster shells, with the impacts visible Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 14, 2015 ( Al Jazeera ) Ukraine fighting continues as ceasefire looms Saturday's fighting in eastern Ukraine cast doubts on the ceasefire and came as the United States accused Russia of deploying heavy arms to eastern Ukraine.Pro-Russia separatists tried to move into on the outskirts of Debaltseve, a strategic town connecting the cities of Luhansk and Donetsk. Ukraine crisis: Fighting rages as ceasefire nears A police chief said the strategic town of Debaltseve was suffering a ferocious bombardment by pro-Russian rebels.Renewed fighting is also reported near the southern port city of Mariupol. Meanwhile, the US ambassador to Ukraine tweeted recent satellite images that he said showed Russian artillery near Debaltseve. Geoffrey Pyatt also said on Twitter that Russian units along the border were preparing a large shipment of supplies to separatist fighters. He said that the rebels were now better armed than some Nato countries. Ukraine and the West accuse Russia of sending troops and weapons to help the separatists in Ukraine's eastern Donetsk and Luhansk regions - a claim the Kremlin vehemently denies. ( The Guardian ) Eastern Ukraine ceasefire in doubt as pro-Kiev forces report 120 attacks Ukraine’s military said on Saturday that pro-Russian forces had tried overnight to storm government positions on the edge of the strategic battleground town of Debaltseve, where Kiev denies rebels have trapped thousands of its troops.“There has been no lull. Moreover, rebels continue attacks on Debaltseve,†military spokesman Anatoly Stelmakh said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/13/ukraine-service-personnel-killed-minsk-ceasefire Putin was said to have made it clear that Debaltseve had to fall. In public remarks following the deal, Putin also said the separatists had the Ukrainian forces encircled and that “of course, they expect [the Ukrainians] to lay down their arms and cease resistanceâ€. Separatists just rush all they have to cut-off and destroy Ukrainian forces holding Debaltseve, because Minsk talks ended much faster than expected. They were promised a week more to do so. Edited February 14, 2015 by boota Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) Minsk Agreement - what means "special status" In the Minsk I but also in the Minsk II agreement it is written about a "special status" for the East Ukraine. Poroshenko itself announced two days ago there would be no autonomy for the donbas region, there were also no agreements about it in Minsk II. Actually arent the local Ukrainians in the east fighting for autonomy......... What does it means a "special status" if it is not autonomy ? Brit troop carriers sent to Ukraine Ukraine has taken delivery of former British military armoured vehicles in a commercial arms deal, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has confirmed.Reports in the conflict-hit country said 20 Saxon armoured personnel carriers had been delivered and a further 55 were to follow, but the MoD did not confirm the figures. https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brit-troop-carriers-sent-ukraine-011516169.html#Z7HIS8B Edited February 14, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted February 14, 2015 The tweeted satellite image from the US ambassador to Ukraine, showing self propelled Russian artillery around Debaltseve : Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.kju 3245 Posted February 14, 2015 Where can you see anything there? If you want to actually see Russian artillery, just go to liveleak or some decent YT channel, or follow some good twitter accounts .. The sad part is that the US would easily have the technical means to prove the Russian involvement on the various levels (military equipment, vehicles, reconnaissance, surveillance, communication, experts and special forces, training, planning, etc). The question you should ask yourself is why the US gov/military does not do that. --- What annoys me following this thread is the shallowness and naivety on display here. Where are all the military experts from this community? Or is everyone too scared to post in public due to the total surveillance we live in nowadays? It would be great to learn more about topics like CiA involvement, relation to China's interests (ie Crimea), military industry and science in SE part of Ukraine, origins of the shooters during Euromaidan, history and current strength and role of the various far right groups in Ukraine, information unveiled by wikileaks or other investigative journalists, role of formed battalions in military, combat operations and various security positions in government, background, connections and roles of P. Poroshenko/A. Yatsenyuk/Y. Tymoshenko, as well as other oligarchs. And what do the average people in the various areas of Ukraine think these days and how does it change over time? --- Ross Kemp visits Ukraine to investigate the rise of the Nazi Far Right in the country's civil war with rebels of Donbass http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=98d_1423931054 The Right Sector of Euromaidan [eng subs] Part 1: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c02_1423550310 Part 2: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8e7_1423564893 Snipers at Maidan - the untold Ukraine story - Newsnight http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=17e_1423862472 The untold story of the Maidan massacre http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31359021 --- Or if you want to follow more the Ukraine agenda: http://liveuamap.com/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted February 14, 2015 Yeah, if Russian propaganda is what you're looking for, it has been debated here very often. About the satellite image posted above, i can't see anything, that's true. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.kju 3245 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) This is the thread about Ukraine (and the ongoing conflict) - this is why I am asking to learn more about it from people that actually know. The mainstream media drivel nor is much of the actual propaganda from all involved sides worth looking into. The role and involvement of Russia is pretty clear. If you can contribute something in-depth or long term background, feel free to share it. But please spare us with this simplistic response and naive world view. Edited February 14, 2015 by .kju [PvPscene] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted February 14, 2015 ;2880688']What annoys me following this thread is the shallowness and naivety on display here. Where are all the military experts from this community? Or is everyone too scared to post in public due to the total surveillance we live in nowadays? That just proves that you have not followed this thread at all. All the subjects you commented have been discussed here. And yeah, we also commented all kinds of conspiracy theories and Russian propaganda, as ProfTournesol said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
