Ukraine General

[beastcat 14]

http://youtu.be/ExDnfT81eZM

Video of the russian Pansir in Lugansk

The poster in the beginning says "Fashism won't pass" by the way.

[nodunit 397]

You misunderstood me. I ment to say that the US does not really care about the Ukrainians.

Excuse me but why should we when the rest of Europe is happy to sit by and just watch, just because we've had a constant war of political ideology with the Russians in the past doesn't mean that it is our job to jump up with a conflict errupts.

If we get involved exactly how could this be good for us (and even Europe) in any way, our involvement sparks problems with the Russians, we get slandered because we could potentially escalate a conflict, we are seen as policing or instilling further chaos the globe if not and a bunch of other fun foreign slander. For what reason should we do anything outside of political talks when at the worst the Russians gain more territory.

If Putin's actions are so destructive that they require attention then why don't do the European powers step in and do something about it.

Edited February 8, 2015 by NodUnit

[aleksadragutin 9]

Excuse me but why should we when the rest of Europe is happy to sit by and just watch, just because we've had a constant war of political ideology with the Russians in the past doesn't mean that it is our job to jump up with a conflict errupts.

You obviously didn't follow this. I oppose US interventions of any kind. You misunderstood me once again, the US (not the people, the government) would like to jump in, either directly or just arm the Ukrainians, but not because it cares about those Ukrainians, but because it wants to extend its reach (preferably if Ukrainians would do that for them). That's what I meant to say.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Funny to dissert on US when that's Russia which is arming its supporters.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Funny to dissert on US when that's Russia which is arming its supporters.

But for what purpose? If you fight fire with fire, all you get is a bigger fire. And if they are so keen on stopping Russian supply, why don't they take care of Russia directly, instead of fighting them through Ukrainians?

Edited February 8, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[oxmox 73]

German Intel: Up to 50,000 deaths in Ukraine

According to official figures, the war has cost the lives in eastern Ukraine 1200 soldiers and 5400 civilians. German security circles but think: It may be almost ten times as many.

German security circles expect that so far up to 50,000 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians may have been killed in the fighting in the east of the country. That's almost ten times as many as last officially stated. The official figures are clearly too low and not credible sources in the safety circuits. Single-digit number of victims would be reported after heavy fighting often, although there must have been in reality dozens of deaths.

FAZ-report

[ProfTournesol 956]

That figure seems really far-fetched.

[nodunit 397]

But for what purpose? If you fight fire with fire, all you get is a bigger fire. And if they are so keen on stopping Russian supply, why don't they take care of Russia directly, instead of fighting them through Ukrainians?

Judging by the current state of our politicians I'm not sure the mindset is to fight Russia through Ukraine, but just to make another weapon sell.

The idea Mcain had with "if we gave them guns they wouldn't have used bombs" is just a silly idea that they would be safer with less extreme weapons, that if they had something smaller they wouldn't need to use the heavy stuff.

Though I'm not sure what good that would do exactly, what happens if they did that and an incident occured near Crimea or providing these weapons somehow fueled the conflict which would require Russia to come in full force either as peace keepers or to quell unrest, gloves come off as it were.

As for why we play political games and don't fight directly.

[oxmox 73]

That figure seems really far-fetched.

Yeah, the numbers sound a bit high but you can be sure that the official numbers are not correct.

Example:

Ukraine hides devastating losses as Russia-backed fighters surge forward

http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/ukraine-hides-devastating-losses-as-russia-backed-rebels-surge-forwards-378321.html

[beastcat 14]

German Intel: Up to 50,000 deaths in Ukraine

According to official figures, the war has cost the lives in eastern Ukraine 1200 soldiers and 5400 civilians. German security circles but think: It may be almost ten times as many.

German security circles expect that so far up to 50,000 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians may have been killed in the fighting in the east of the country. That's almost ten times as many as last officially stated. The official figures are clearly too low and not credible sources in the safety circuits. Single-digit number of victims would be reported after heavy fighting often, although there must have been in reality dozens of deaths.

FAZ-report

Lets say 1/5 of total deaths are soldiers and that 5.000 of those are from each side. That would mean that 1/5 of the active army had died and with the approximate WIA rate it would mean that about 120% of the active army is disabled. Of course this is veeery approximate, but you get the idea.

[Maio 293]

http://youtu.be/ExDnfT81eZM

Video of the russian Pansir in Lugansk

The poster in the beginning says "Fashism won't pass" by the way.

Oh I'm sure that's from the local Ukr. vehicle dump :rolleyes: It just needed a paint job and a new pair of windshield wipers...

Edited February 8, 2015 by Maio

[oxmox 73]

Crimea Cannot Be Blamed for Choosing to Join Russia - Sarkozy

Former French President Nicolas Sarkozy noted on Saturday that France and Russia are part of a common European civilization, and that Crimea cannot be blamed for choosing to join Russia.

Speaking on Saturday before supporters at the congress of the Union for a Popular Movement Party (UMP), Former French President Nicolas Sarkozy played a conciliatory note toward Russia, noting that Crimea could not be blamed for choosing to leave Ukraine amidst the turmoil of early 2014.

"We are part of a common civilization with Russia," Sarkozy, who serves as the president of the UMP, noted.

"The interests of the Americans with the Russians are not the interests of Europe and Russia," he noted.

The former president added that "we do not want the revival of a Cold War between Europe and Russia."

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150207/1017949471.html

Anyone did read about it in other main sources ?

[beastcat 14]

Crimea Cannot Be Blamed for Choosing to Join Russia - Sarkozy

Former French President Nicolas Sarkozy noted on Saturday that France and Russia are part of a common European civilization, and that Crimea cannot be blamed for choosing to join Russia.

Speaking on Saturday before supporters at the congress of the Union for a Popular Movement Party (UMP), Former French President Nicolas Sarkozy played a conciliatory note toward Russia, noting that Crimea could not be blamed for choosing to leave Ukraine amidst the turmoil of early 2014.

"We are part of a common civilization with Russia," Sarkozy, who serves as the president of the UMP, noted.

"The interests of the Americans with the Russians are not the interests of Europe and Russia," he noted.

The former president added that "we do not want the revival of a Cold War between Europe and Russia."

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150207/1017949471.html

Anyone did read about it in other main sources ?

Nope, I've only seen it on Sputnik so far, not even RT.

http://youtu.be/4yCkatPYWxQ

"Donetsk. Exploding humanitarian aid 08.02.2015 22:46"

[nodunit 397]

It's on RT

http://rt.com/news/230283-sarkozy-crimea-russia-blamed/

[beastcat 14]

It's on RT

http://rt.com/news/230283-sarkozy-crimea-russia-blamed/

Well it's only 10 minutes old, so I can't be blamed. :D

Business Insider - Russia is reportedly getting military bases in an EU state

Cyprus has offered Russia to have air and navy bases on its territory.

Cypriot president Nicos Anastasiades announced that the country is ready to host Russian aviation and naval bases. The official agreement on military cooperation between the two nations is expected be signed on February 25, 2015, according to Lenta.ru.

"There is an old [defense] agreement, which should be renewed as is. At the same time, some additional services will be provided in the same way as we do with other countries, such as, for example, with France and Germany," Nicos Anastasiades said. "Cyprus and Russia have traditionally had good relations, and this is not subject to change."

Also I'm having a deja-vu for some reason.

Edited February 8, 2015 by beastcat

[oxmox 73]

Nope, I've only seen it on Sputnik so far, not even RT.

I can help you ;), was lucky after more googling and found even the speech from our Libya friend Sarkozy....

Business Insider - Russia is reportedly getting military bases in an EU state

Interesting article, never heard before about it...

Edited February 8, 2015 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

I can help you ;), was lucky after more googling and found even the speech from our Libya friend Sarkozy....

Business Insider - Russia is reportedly getting military bases in an EU state

Interesting article, never heard before about it...

Yeah, check my last post, I'm talking about both those things. :D

Anyway, russian convoy nr.13 has entered Ukraine today and the fighting has already intensified.

And that despite the fact that Zakharchenkos 100.000 men mobilisation is only beginning tomorrow.

Edited February 8, 2015 by beastcat

[oxmox 73]

Yeah, check my last post, I'm talking about both those things. :D

Anyway, russian convoy nr.13 has entered Ukraine today and the fighting has already intensified.

And that despite the fact that Zakharchenkos 100.000 men mobilisation is only beginning tomorrow.

Which countries did send aid convoys to the east ....I just wonder why there was no more international help for the civilians.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I can help you ;), was lucky after more googling and found even the speech from our Libya friend Sarkozy....

The least i can say is that Sarkozy isn't always wise nor visionary, outside of the economics area. Hollande isn't at all my cup of tea, but on that matter, he's clearly better.

[mistyronin 1181]

Which countries did send aid convoys to the east ....I just wonder why there was no more international help for the civilians.

A few dozen pages back I linked the diff countries and "Western" NGOs that did send aid to the east. By aid I mean food and medicine.

Tho it's a problematic situation as Russian soldiers control most of access to the Eastern parts.

[beastcat 14]

Which countries did send aid convoys to the east ....I just wonder why there was no more international help for the civilians.

Pfft, from the top of my head I can say Poland, Canada, Germany, Latvia. There are probably more. But the difference is that they have sent actual humanitarian aid in contrast to the magic russian humanitarian aid who noone is allowed to check, noone knows what they carry or where they are going and that russian media claims are able to carry as much as freight ships at times and that are pretty much empty at others.

New Vice News video:

[oxmox 73]

Did they send help to the civilians living in the areas controlled by spereatists or to the eastern areas but outside of the rebel controlled territories. I did read about the food blockade which did happen for a while by the volunteer bataillons, about bigger convoys from Russia but didnt follow the situation about humanitarian aid since december.

[beastcat 14]

Did they send help to the civilians living in the areas controlled by spereatists or to the eastern areas but outside of the rebel controlled territories. I did read about the food blockade which did happen for a while by the volunteer bataillons, about bigger convoys from Russia but didnt follow the situation about humanitarian aid since december.

As I said, that was only from the top of my head. If you want to know all of the details you may consider google searching each convoy.

Looks like the aid convoy contained too many beans.

Edited February 8, 2015 by beastcat

[jakerod 254]

But for what purpose? If you fight fire with fire, all you get is a bigger fire.

So they should just let the fire keep going until it consumes the whole country?

And if they are so keen on stopping Russian supply, why don't they take care of Russia directly, instead of fighting them through Ukrainians?

Because no one considers lighting the atmosphere on fire with nukes to be "putting out the fire".

As much as I hate to admit there are realistically two ways out of this:

1.) Cease-fire - Both sides stop where they are and they do some kind of split either at a national level or an administrative one. This leaves the separatists in a position where they can keep attacking and also encourages others to fight.

2.) Defeat - One side has to be defeated. I would prefer it be the separatists since as far as I can tell, they started the war instead of trying to gain independence politically.

[Tonci87 163]

But for what purpose? If you fight fire with fire, all you get is a bigger fire. And if they are so keen on stopping Russian supply, why don't they take care of Russia directly, instead of fighting them through Ukrainians?

You don´t know that forest fires are often fought with another fire? You start a smaller controlled fire in the path of the big fire to consume all the fuel the big fire could use.

@Beastcat, what is that thing about the exploding convoy?