Ukraine General

[Maio 293]

Even if both sides and their backers reach an agreement and respect it... the amount of weapons and bad blood in the region will keep things interesting.

[clifdenhill 1]

but they are not realizing they're being manipulated on both ends.

I also think powerful governments like to manipulate the smaller ones don't know the interests but they don't do it for no reason :confused:

[ProfTournesol 956]

There's a difference between manipulating and invading or annexing.

[clifdenhill 1]

There's a difference between manipulating and invading or annexing.

that is true stopped thinking about Crimea for a second.

I was about to say but the west (US) didn't do invade or annex so what about them but they have their own way of doing it don't they. lol

[ProfTournesol 956]

that is true stopped thinking about Crimea for a second.

I was about to say but the west (US) didn't do invade or annex so what about them but they have their own way of doing it don't they. lol

Well yes, Western countries made a lot of major and tragical mistakes too (US in Irak or France in Libya). But in Europe, Russia is playing with fire.

[mistyronin 1181]

Well yes, Western countries made a lot of major and tragical mistakes too (US in Irak or France in Libya). But in Europe, Russia is playing with fire.

Tho the Coalition ( which also comprised a lot of Mid-East countries ) didn't annex anyone.

Edited January 26, 2015 by MistyRonin

[aleksadragutin 9]

There's a difference between manipulating and invading or annexing.

Actually, not much difference between annexing. People get ruined in both situations. Jobs destroyed, shopping power lost, so not much difference.

---------- Post added at 22:49 ---------- Previous post was at 22:48 ----------

that is true stopped thinking about Crimea for a second.

I was about to say but the west (US) didn't do invade or annex so what about them but they have their own way of doing it don't they. lol

And yes, US likes puppet governments to do the work for them. But US invaded more countries than I can count. Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Libiya, plus supporting couple rebellions.

Edited January 26, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[clifdenhill 1]

And yes, US likes puppet governments to do the work for them. But US invaded more countries than I can count. Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Libiya, plus supporting couple rebellions.

yeah this what I was hinting or implying they like to be puppet master. smh

and soon Ukraine when they send soldiers in to "train" the Ukraine.

[Tonci87 163]

I believe you, but here's the brake down of the events following the pro western revolution in Serbia. 1st all military secrets lost, programs canceled, 2nd appointing executives in state firms on political party bases (democratic party off course), that used their positions for personal and party gain, 3rd selling ruined firms to foreign investors at ridiculously low prices, 4th paying the investors our selves, 5th taking back the firms along with investors depts, 6th taking so much bank credit to fix the situation (off course in foreign banks), 7th falling into dept slavery, 8th ending up with the shitty situation we have today. Not to mention that all of this is accompanied by a type of EU inquisition(which one of our satirical shows well portrayed), forcing Serbia to humilify itself. That's what I think is going to happen in Ukraine. They can't trust Russia, but it's stupid to think that they can trust US and EU.

Do you, by any chance have a link to this satirical show? :)

[oxmox 73]

There's a difference between manipulating and invading or annexing.

Offtopic, but an example with a different methode, take for example the Island "Diego Garcia" (largest Island of the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT); altoghether 7 atolls) which was always an important strategically location for world powers, especially for the military.

Since the end of 18th century the Island was settled by europeans and slaves. The population did grow up to ~2000 people in the end of the 1960s. The sovereignty of the Chagos Archipelago, including Diego Garcia, is being disputed between the United Kingdom and Mauritius. In 1965, the United Kingdom split the Chagos Archipelago from Mauritius and the islands of Aldabra, Farquhar and Desroches (Des Roches) from the Seychelles to form the British Indian Ocean Territory.

The United Kingdom excised the archipelago (they bought the Island and it was a condition for negotiations for independance btw) from Mauritian territory prior to Mauritius' independence in 1968. . The deal was important to the UK government, as the United States granted it a substantial discount on the purchase of Polaris nuclear missiles in return for the use of the islands as a base.

After that Great Britain did lease the Island to the United States for 50 years, with the option for renewal.

Between 1968 and 1973, the Chagossians (inhabitants), then numbering about 2,000 people, were resettled (forced resettlement) by the British government to Mauritius and Seychelles to allow the United States to establish a military base on the island.

Today, the exiled Chagossians are still trying to return, claiming that the forced expulsion from Diego Garcia was illegal.This claim and their right to return home was upheld by the British high court but has continued to be blocked by the British government.

(source: wikipedia)

Bikini Island is maybe a similar case.

Rare documentary about - Diego Garcia:

"Stealing A Nation"

Especially part II, starts at 18:20min, shows how they did create a fake colony (BIOT), starting to claim lies about the natives and treat the inhabitants as not belonging to it in any sense. A strategy to expel the people living there. Officially, always kept in silence and secrecy since it was a violence of the UN Charter and human rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEhVNzHI4rQ

Edited January 27, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

oxmox are you really trying to compare the case of an almost deserted island inhabited by colonial powers 200 years ago to the 21st century Russian military invasion of highly populated ( millions of inhabitants ) areas from a sovereign country like Ukraine? I mean seriously? :j:

In any case why are you even comparing UK with Russia? We are talking about Russian deeds in Ukraine, whatever the UK had made dozens of years ago is not precisely relevant ( specially if the scale of the comparison is absurd ).

And tho I do agree that the UK colonialist policies in the XVIII and XIX centuries were awful and despicable; compare them to Putin's Russia is just a joke.

- - -

Video from the Donbass battalion setting a checkpoint:

Edited January 27, 2015 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

oxmox are you really trying to compare the case of an almost deserted island inhabited by colonial powers 200 years ago to the 21st century Russian military invasion of highly populated ( millions of inhabitants ) areas from a sovereign country like Ukraine? I mean seriously? :j:

In any case why are you even comparing UK with Russia? We are talking about Russian deeds in Ukraine, whatever the UK had made dozens of years ago is not precisely relevant ( specially if the scale of the comparison is absurd ).

This was not a comparison, it was about to show another methode than those which were mentioned in the quote. It is offtopic and has nothing to do with the conflict in the Ukraine.

And tho I do agree that the UK colonialist policies in the XVIII and XIX centuries were awful and despicable; compare them to Putin's Russia is just a joke

The book "The Blood never dried: People's History of the British Empire" is a recommanded read, a read rather about parts/certain cases of the colonial crimes of the British Empire.

Honestly it is quiete adventurous and nuts to call the timeframe of 200 years of imperial power a joke, comparing it with the very short existing "Putins Russia".

Lets end the myths of Britain's imperial past ........

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/oct/19/end-myths-britains-imperial-past

Britain destroyed records of colonial crimes

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes

Edited January 27, 2015 by oxmox

[Rydygier 1317]

Ukrainian Parliament considered Russia as an aggressor and separatists as terrorists

"Ukraine remains the target of the military aggression of the Russian Federation. Only in the last two weeks as a result of the attacks separatists in Wołnowasze, Donetsk and Mariupol killed approx. 50 civilian citizens of Ukraine "- said presenting the draft resolution deputy party Hanna Hopko Self. (PAP)

[beastcat 14]

We haven't seen these for quite a while

[aleksadragutin 9]

Do you, by any chance have a link to this satirical show? :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i9VaaCmXEs

Edited January 27, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[mistyronin 1181]

Honestly it is quiete adventurous and nuts to call the timeframe of 200 years of imperial power a joke, comparing it with the very short existing "Putins Russia".

First, I haven't said that the "the timeframe of 200 years of imperial power" were a joke, read again. I said your comparison was a joke.

compare them to Putin's Russia is just a joke.

It's like compare the modern US with the Greek state-cities at the times of Alexander the Great, it's just don't make any sense.

I know that's hard to miss, but we are not longer in colonial times. Nowadays slavery is not longer legal, nor the idea of annexing countries militarily. So compare what was common in colonialist times to try to justify nowadays events is really nuts and from the historical point of view none sense. So yeah, that comparison you made was obviously a joke.

Unless you mean that Russia and Putin are living in a parallel World were colonialism is still the trend.

Edited January 27, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

[mistyronin 1181]

Putin one of the worst authoritarian figures in the planet, known for rewriting history and creating a cult to his personality now says that "Attempts to Rewrite History Are Driven by Desire to Hide Shame".

And the first thing he does after that is to order his special forces to storm Crimean TVs to remove all the videos from the anti-Russian invasion demonstrations, so no one can see them. I guess he is really ashamed!

(Sputnik News ) Putin Says Attempts to Rewrite History Are Driven by Desire to Hide Shame

( NY Times ) Russian Security Forces Raid Independent Crimean TV Station

Russian security forces raided independent Crimean television station ATR on Monday, seizing equipment and telling employees they were looking for archival footage of an anti-Russia protest last year, station officials said.

( The Moscow Times ) Russian Police Raids Tatar TV Station in Crimea

- - -

And if we look into the Archives:

( Bloomberg, 2007 ) Stalin Back in Vogue as Putin Endorses History-Book Nostalgia

( Chicago Tribune, 2008 ) Russia rewriting Josef Stalin's legacy

( The Times, 2013 ) Putin rewrites history for new school textbook

( The Star, 2014 ) Putin’s grotesque rewriting of history

( Time, 2014 ) Russians Rewrite History to Slur Ukraine Over War

Edited January 27, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

OK, that guy is mental, no other excuse possible....

[oxmox 73]

First, I haven't said that the "the timeframe of 200 years of imperial power" were a joke, read again. I said your comparison was a joke.

So compare what was common in colonialist times to try to justify nowadays events is really nuts and from the historical point of view none sense.

So yeah, that comparison you made was obviously a joke.

At first we should say we both did misunderstand each other.

The example was not about common practice in colonial times, it is about the 60s and 70s, some decades ago.

Since you are repeating that I did do a comparison I wonder why my previous response wasnt enough, because I mentioned that it was not a comparison to the events what this thread is about. Nobody was justifiying anything.

Please, dont mix things up here which do not even exist and lets get back to objective discussions. Thx.

Edited January 28, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The example was not about common practice in colonial times, it is about the 60s and 70s, some decades ago.

Is the 18th century the 60s or the 70s? Because you quoted it yourself as the beginning of the trouble.

Since the end of 18th century the Island was settled by europeans and slaves.

We'll all agree that all your example was due to the actions in that century... Without colonization, no issue at all.

And again your example compared to the situation in Ukraine is like comparing a Ferrari with a music note. I'll never understand that mania of "ohhh what Putin is doing nowadays it's OK, because two centuries ago the Europeans were really bad and invaded a lot of territories".

No, what Putin is doing is plain wrong, in all senses, in the same way that what the Europeans did in colonial times. Any try to excuse his heinous crimes with past history events is IMO a joke of really bad taste.

Please, dont mix things up here which do not even exist and lets get back to objective discussions. Thx.

That seems a good suggestion for you. Do not put in my mouth, words that I haven't said. And read before write.

[surpher 1]

(Bellingcat) Is this the Launch Site of the Missile that Shot Down Flight MH17? A Look at the Claims and Evidence

The location of the Buk between its last sighting in Snizhne and its appearance in Luhansk the following morning is a vital question that will shed light on the culprits and circumstances of the MH17 tragedy. This report will consider four vital clues that allow us to estimate the launch location for the missile that downed MH17: 1) photographs of a white smoke trail taken a few moments after the crash of flight MH17, 2) visible burn damage to a wheat field that appeared between 16 and 20 July 2014, 3) audio recordings reportedly from 17 July 2014, and 4) a US intelligence satellite image from 22 July 2014.

(InformNapalm) Lugansk, the company "Transpele." Identified base of Russian military equipment

During OSINT-page exploration of the Russian military and mercenaries in social networks were able to identify the location of the base of modern Russian military equipment, located on the territory of "Transpele" in the city of Lugansk .

[oxmox 73]

Is the 18th century the 60s or the 70s? Because you quoted it yourself as the beginning of the trouble. We'll all agree that all your example was due to the actions in that century... Without colonization, no issue at all.

Parts of the quotes from wikipedia belong to the overall history of the Island, but the detailed case what it is all about is explained in this documentary which did happen in the 60s and 70s in the last 20th century with all our principles in rights and laws. Your explanation "without colonization, no issue at all" is too simple.

And again your example compared to the situation in Ukraine is like comparing a Ferrari with a music note. I'll never understand that mania of "ohhh what Putin is doing nowadays it's OK, because two centuries ago the Europeans were really bad and invaded a lot of territories".

No, what Putin is doing is plain wrong, in all senses, in the same way that what the Europeans did in colonial times. Any try to excuse his heinous crimes with past history events is IMO a joke of really bad taste.

You are trying to impute me with your repeatings.

There is no thought of comparison from me with the Ukraine conflict, ok ?

Nothing was written from me in the text which hints to a comparison with Putin or anything, ok ?

The posted case of Diego Garcia was offtopic like I wrote.

That seems a good suggestion for you. Do not put in my mouth, words that I haven't said. And read before write.

Honestly, after the need of writing the 3rd time that I did not compare my posting with the Ukraine Conflict and you are repeating it several times I did wonder already. Alright, hopefully the missunderstanding is solved now.

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

So do we still get a Nuland cookie for blaming Russia, just checking ;)

[mistyronin 1181]

Honestly, after the need of writing the 3rd time that I did not compare my posting with the Ukraine Conflict and you are repeating it several times I did wonder already. Alright, hopefully the missunderstanding is solved now.

You wrote your post as an answer to ProfTournesol who was commenting about the situation in Ukraine comparing to others ( invasion vs annexation ). You even said that was an example for him of that case. :j:

Now you claim that it was completely out of the blue... I know that you can do better than that!

- - -

( BBC ) Ukraine conflict: US warns of more sanctions on Russia

US Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew has said sanctions against Russia could be extended because of the escalation of violence in east Ukraine.