Ukraine General

[negah 26]

while the Ukrainian Gov. is trying to avoid excesses.

So bombing residential areas and killing civilians is avoiding excesses?

Oh I forgot that were of course the separatists thet were constantly shelling their own people while fighting the government forces, all ordered by Kremlin.

That strangled pregnant woman in Odessa was a fine example of a russian terrorist on vacation in Unkraine. Wait she must have strangled her herself.

[mistyronin 1181]

So bombing residential areas and killing civilians is avoiding excesses?

Unfortunately the killing of civilians by accident, and the possibility of artillery shells falling in residential areas is the awful reality of modern war, and it's not considered a war crime but "collateral" damage. It would be a cleaner war if the Pro-Russians didn't hide among the residential areas.

On the other hand, summary executions, torture, etc. are indeed war crimes, specially if ordered by tribunals like the one in the former occupied Slaviansk or the nowadays ones signed by the "DPR".

You can check the news reports and dead accounts of other wars where the civilians were a target ( check Boko Haram or IS ).

That strangled pregnant woman in Odessa was a fine example of a russian terrorist on vacation in Unkraine. Wait she must have strangled her herself.

Read again my last post. No one talked about terrorist, and I already said:

That's true there were intensive violence between both sides that day, and yeah part of the Ukrainian people wanted to lynch the armed Russians that infiltrated in Odessa ( also shown in the streaming ). And thank God the Ukrainian Police prevented most of that.

[beastcat 14]

So bombing residential areas and killing civilians is avoiding excesses?

Oh I forgot that were of course the separatists thet were constantly shelling their own people while fighting the government forces, all ordered by Kremlin.

That strangled pregnant woman in Odessa was a fine example of a russian terrorist on vacation in Unkraine. Wait she must have strangled her herself.

Strangled pregnant woman? Where did you get that? Last time I heard that was on PutinTV. She was not strangled, she died of smoke inhalation and she was not pregnant, she was just old and overweight.

It's of course still horrible, but thats just wrong.

[Tonci87 163]

Crimea has a water shortage

skip to time:

[negah 26]

Strangled pregnant woman? Where did you get that? Last time I heard that was on PutinTV. She was not strangled, she died of smoke inhalation and she was not pregnant, she was just old and overweight.

It's of course still horrible, but thats just wrong.

So I should only believe what the Poroshenko TV or Obama TV say, because thats the absolute truth coming from our democratic free mass media?

Not like the so called "Putin TV" was the only one that reported on that case, everyone else was claiming the demonstrants have put themselves on fire.

And no one on the german media has said anything about thugs who were murdering people who managed to get out of the building.

Most of the google results point out to a "strangled pregnant woman", the only source which states that she is in fact old and overweight is here:

http://observers.france24.com/content/20140513-strangled-woman-odessa-photo-ukraine

I agree her clothes look rather strange for a young woman and would rather belong to an older woman.

Still that same source says that judging by her pose it is very unlikely that she died due to smoke or fire.

“We cannot exclude the possibility of asphyxiation. However, the body’s position does not correspond with what you would expect would happen when someone suddenly loses consciousness. You would expect to find them on the ground. This position, with her bottom on the desk, makes me think that someone placed her there. The absence of any trace of the fire in the room also makes asphyxiation seem unlikely, though of course we cannot completely rule out the emission of toxic gases, since we don’t know when the window was opened.†The doctor added that strangulation, or a strike on the head, are both possibilities that could explain her death.

[beastcat 14]

So I should only believe what the Poroshenko TV or Obama TV say, because thats the absolute truth coming from our democratic free mass media?

Not like the so called "Putin TV" was the only one that reported on that case, everyone else was claiming the demonstrants have put themselves on fire.

And no one on the german media has said anything about thugs who were murdering people who managed to get out of the building.

Most of the google results point out to a "strangled pregnant woman", the only source which states that she is in fact old and overweight is here:

http://observers.france24.com/content/20140513-strangled-woman-odessa-photo-ukraine

I agree her clothes look rather strange for a young woman and would rather belong to an older woman.

Still that same source says that judging by her pose it is very unlikely that she died due to smoke or fire.

I'm not saying that you have to believe only one type of media, but I'm saying that you should not believe empty claims from media which is known to make absolutely empty claims and propaganda all the time.

I'll leave you with an excerpt from wikipedia

Thirty-two people died whilst trapped in the burning Trade Unions House; twenty-three from carbon monoxide poisoning, and eight after leaping from windows to escape the flames.[37] In total, forty-three people died in one day as a result of the clashes.[38] Police said at least three people were shot dead.[39][40][41] Hospital staff reported that 174 were injured, and 25 were in critical condition.[42] 172 people were reported arrested as a result of the conflict, and 38 pro-Russian militants were arrested by police after they had evacuated the burning building.[10][43]

And here are some more articles:

Human Rights in Ukraine - Odessa "Massacre" Propaganda vs. the Facts

Human Rights in Ukraine - Manufacturing international outrage over an Odessa Massacre that never was

One of the victims of the tragic events in Odessa was falsely represented by the Russian media to have been a pregnant woman, strangled with a cord. In reality, the victim, Anna Varenikina, was a 59 year old woman, who died from the combination of thermal damage, smoke inhalation and related poisoning.

Now, what speaks for the russian theory?

- Empty claims by russian media

- Self proclaimed "experts" who say that she was strangled because her position looks slightly weird

What speaks against it?

- Facts

[Dwarden 1125]

propaganda aside, if the loss of the main building and tower etc. is confirmed alongside skilled / veteran troops then it's indeed bad news for defenders of Ukraine

lovers of the Russian or West camp needs to realize that lot of soldiers who lost theirs lives in the conflict are just doing theirs job

aka defending Ukraine as theirs homeland and trying keep it's border integrity intact

if Russia sets new precedent (well not exactly new, right Georgia ?) that you can wage war, w/o declaring war and w/o 'being involved' while being involved

then everyone needs realize that next time it could be target anyone even the one who atm. seems to be winning

[negah 26]

Really linking to facts posted on a ukrainian based website (even called Human Rights one) doesnt prove anything as Ukraine is as biased in this case as Russia.

And please dont come with free press in Ukraine, I still remember videos of ukrainian new truth minister beating and forcing the chief of a television channel to resign because he dared to broadcast non government approved program.

But anyway its pointless to argue, since everyone will keep to his opinion.

[spooky lynx 73]

I have yet to see any Ukrainian soldiers abusing any POWs. The separatists on the other hand are not even shy of abusing journalists they don´t like. As Misty already told you, the thing in Odessa was live streamed, the pro Russians themselves were responsible for the fire.

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdRNoCmIE-M

[Tonci87 163]

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdRNoCmIE-M

First Video, I don´t see any abuse there, putting them on the ground while arresting them is perfectly normal.

Second video, again no abuse, just people who in front of a Russian camera claim that they have been abused.

Third Video, that guy is a dick. I think stripping the guy of his clothes classifies as psychological abuse and humiliation.

So you can present, one case, maybe two at best. On the other hand every DPR video with POWs in it has some serious abuse going on. Beatings, threats, parading them around, shooting just past the POWs head etc.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Tonci87

[spooky lynx 73]

First Video, I don´t see any abuse there, putting them on the ground while arresting them is perfectly normal.

Second video, again no abuse, just people who in front of a Russian camera claim that they have been abused.

Third Video, that guy is a dick. I think stripping the guy of his clothes classifies as psychological abuse and humiliation.

So you can present, one case, maybe two at best. On the other hand every DPR video with POWs in it has some serious abuse going on. Beatings, threats, parading them around, shooting just past the POWs head etc.

Okay. At first videos there are constant threats to shoot POWs in nearest pit and shots near them (they are heard perfectly).

Second video - first guy shows burned word "Separ" (shortened from "separatist" - often used by pro-UA folks) on his chest.

Isn't it not enough for you? Or maybe you suppose burning some words on the chest is okay? Or maybe you feel okay with abusing teenager by the mob (second video, from 5:00) of mature males for his anti-maidan posts in social networks and forcing him to regret?

Oh and I hadn't brought other videos showing interviews with separatists released from UA prisons and their stories - you'll definitely not believe it.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Spooky Lynx

[Tonci87 163]

Okay. At first videos there are constant threats to shoot POWs in nearest pit and shots near them (they are heard perfectly).

Second video - first guy shows burned word "Separ" (shortened from "separatist" - often used by pro-UA folks) on his chest.

Isn't it not enough for you? Or maybe you suppose burning some words on the chest is okay?

Oh and I hadn't brought other videos showing interviews with separatists released from UA prisons and their stories - you'll definitely not believe it.

Yeah of course I weon´t believe it because there mostly is no actual evidence.

No burning words on chest is not OK, but then those things he has don´t look like burn marks (maybe it is the camera). I know what those look like. I worked long enough in a restaurant kitchen to exactly know what burn marks from hot iron look like. And I know a girl who had her arm burned by flames so I know what those burn marks look like too.

[beastcat 14]

Really linking to facts posted on a ukrainian based website (even called Human Rights one) doesnt prove anything as Ukraine is as biased in this case as Russia.

And please dont come with free press in Ukraine, I still remember videos of ukrainian new truth minister beating and forcing the chief of a television channel to resign because he dared to broadcast non government approved program.

But anyway its pointless to argue, since everyone will keep to his opinion.

Wikipedia is a Ukrainian based website?

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------

Here you go:

U@W - Evidence of POW torture and trying to blame Ukraine for it.

The Rossiya 1 video isn't really evidence for anything at all, because they are known for faking pretty much everything they show. For all we know the people might be lying the whole way down and seing its Rossiya 1 its very likely. Oh and it does indeed look more like someone just punched him with it rather than burn marks.

Oh and Lyashko is indeed an asshole, so I guess we agree on that one.

Edited January 22, 2015 by beastcat

[oxmox 73]

Guys, several times human rights organisations did report that there were questionable actions from both sides. Better look more on the political part of the conflict instead trying to find puzzles from incidents at the frontlines.

I wonder nobody did post about the new agreements in the last hours....

[mistyronin 1181]

I wonder nobody did post about the new agreements in the last hours....

Because all the agreements signed meant nothing to the pro-Russian side, which ignored them from the beginning.

[oxmox 73]

Because all the agreements signed meant nothing to the pro-Russian side, which ignored them from the beginning.

From where do you have the information that only one side did ingore and brake the agreements.

[beastcat 14]

From where do you have the information that only one side did ingore and brake the agreements.

Because only the separatists took over the airport during a cease-fire. The only ones who were advancing and taking over territory were the separatists, who even themselves said multiple times that they don't give a shit about any agreements.

[oxmox 73]

Because only the separatists took over the airport during a cease-fire. The only ones who were advancing and taking over territory were the separatists, who even themselves said multiple times that they don't give a shit about any agreements.

But the cease fire was broken only by one side ?

[beastcat 14]

But the cease fire was broken only by one side ?

Shouldn't the OSCE check that? They are very unrealiable and look the other way a lot, but I'm not sure what else there is. Sadly I'm too lazy to look myself, but maybe someone who is ready to read a lot of nothing might check their reports.

Apropos OSCE reports, heres an exerp of one of the new ones:

But the cease fire is now pretty much over anyway.

[negah 26]

That very same report states following:

In the 24 hours preceding 08.00hrs, 20 January, they said there had been 140 ceasefire violations in the JCCC’s area of responsibility, 77 committed by the Ukrainian Armed Forces, and 63 by armed groups affiliated to the “DPR†or the “Lugansk People’s Republic†(“LPRâ€). Fifty of the violations were recorded, they said, at or in the environs of the Donetsk airport.

Regarding ukrainian based websites: I was refering (I did say it too) to the Human Rights sources you cited.

[Tonci87 163]

Because only the separatists took over the airport during a cease-fire. The only ones who were advancing and taking over territory were the separatists, who even themselves said multiple times that they don't give a shit about any agreements.

Exactly, from the getgo the separatists declared that the ceasefire means nothing to them.

It seems as if the Airport is still contested. The separatists managed to capture the terminal but the Ukrainians are still holding on to a few other facilities. Although it is highly unlikely that they will be able to do it for very long, now that the separatists control the strategically most important parts.

[beastcat 14]

That very same report states following:

Regarding ukrainian based websites: I was refering (I did say it too) to the Human Rights sources you cited.

Yes, as I said, the cease-fire is non existent now and around the airport it never was.

Oh and ignore the websites you don't like then. Wikipedia has a lot of non Ukrainian based sources. But even if Wikipedia was a SBU project, there is absolutely nothing of substance that the russian claims are based on. The best you get is "It looks slightly different from what a layman may expect it would look like" or "If reality would be like our propaganda narrative, than that would be the thing Ukrainians would likely do, because you know, they are heartless evil fashist nazi jews from america".

Edited January 22, 2015 by beastcat

[oxmox 73]

Shouldn't the OSCE check that? They are very unrealiable and look the other way a lot, but I'm not sure what else there is. Sadly I'm too lazy to look myself, but maybe someone who is ready to read a lot of nothing might check their reports.

Apropos OSCE reports, heres an exerp of one of the new ones:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B79oCuTCMAEsjuD.jpg

But the cease fire is now pretty much over anyway.

Because it is almost impossible to check who did brake cease-fire with all that many incidents each day after the agreement last year. Both sides did blame each other.

2 days after the agreement:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/ukraine-rebels-ceasefire-broken-shelling

almost 2 weeks after it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11102111/Ukraine-rebels-say-ceasefire-has-broken-down.html

edit:

Russia highly likely does not have 100% control of the actions from the seperatists. And the strategical aim of the militia in the east Ukraine, independantly from agreements and if such dont succeed, will be probably to push further that artillery and grad cant reach the towns and their posteriar military positions.

Edited January 22, 2015 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

Because it is almost impossible to check who did brake cease-fire with all that many incidents each day after the agreement last year. Both sides did blame each other.

Another issue is that both sides claim to return fire only, so gained territory is pretty much the only thing we can go on. Because someone who just returns fire doesn't advance into enemy territory.

[oxmox 73]

Another issue is that both sides claim to return fire only, so gained territory is pretty much the only thing we can go on. Because someone who just returns fire doesn't advance into enemy territory.

Advancing into enemy territory did happen after the cease fire was meaningless anyway, isnt it. And the strategically point I was talking about plays maybe a role in certain areas. But I dont have the overview where did the advance happening on the whole frontline.