Ukraine General

[x3kj 1247]

According to you a country can only gain power through wars.

So what has changed until today? The time' date=' technology, politics and the use of "Economic Hitmen" rather than going the dull and expensive way of invasion.[/quote']

I think you should pay more attention to what is written if you quote it.

they want to be able to decide what they do with their country not be Russia's puppet.

Everyone would like to not be a puppet... except EU isnt its own master in every respect. Not for geostrategic decisions and certain inner politics that affect industries/ large corporations/ banks. We'll see what time brings. I doubt that in 10 years Ukraine people will have more freedom/rights/ better living conditions then before. The west doesnt care about the general population. Look at Lybia. Bloody struggle between different factions now that Gadaffi was dethroned.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Fennek

[ProfTournesol 956]

Everyone would like to not be a puppet... except EU isnt its own master in every respect. Not for geostrategic decisions and certain inner politics that affect industries/ large corporations/ banks. We'll see what time brings. I doubt that in 10 years Ukraine people will have more freedom/rights/ better living conditions then before. The west doesnt care about the general population. Look at Lybia. Bloody struggle between different factions now that Gadaffi was dethroned.

Well, it's very caricatural to say that "West" did what happened in Lybia. It was France and UK mainly, under the approval of UN security council. I strongly disapproved what was done there (even if Gadaffi being dead is a good news IMHO), but you can't generalize. Moreover, France did learn the lesson in Mali (which was more or less the consequency of what happened in Lybia), where it tries to maintain a force fighting permanently against Jihadists there, contrary to Lybia, which is now a proxy war between Qatar (sadly very influent in France) and the UAE. The USA are not far from coming back to Astan and Irak too.

Edited December 1, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[mistyronin 1181]

Tournesol but you don't understand, the West is the Evil personified.

Sometimes I think that for some people the West it's just some kind of platonic idea. A simple subject that fits all kind of evil and awful intentions.

There are no shades of grey, it's just a black and white vision. In fact as I commented in another thread "the West" it's even a different concept according to who you ask ( geographical, political, cultural, NATO etc. ).

Funny fact is that mainly that term is used by Russian and pro-Russian propaganda, no where else in the World. Everywhere else you'll read western countries ( meaning a physical/geographical area ) or western culture ( which means practically 1/3 of the World ).

[surpher 1]

(Ukraine@War Blog) Russians firing AGAIN from same residential area Shirokiy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqJdQYGe0sA

[oxmox 73]

So because Finland and Sweden are working out an agreement for mutual defense they are not neutral?

This is the question how someone defines "neutrality".

Yes, the term is vague if such nations are involved into military confederations or political wider institutions.

---> A true neutral state would be Switzerland for example.

About Sweden and neutrality

After the end of the Cold War and the fall of the Soviet Union, Sweden has officially dropped the principle of neutrality, but continues to be non-aligned. However in 1995 Sweden did join the European Union and has since the mid-1990s continued to reduce its armed forces and became involved in more international missions in countries like Bosnia and Afghanistan. The continued reduction of its own national defence and the question of whether the country really could defend itself against an aggressor has led to some criticism.[4][5] As a result of the 2010 U.S. diplomatic cables leak, it was learned that the United States government has described Sweden's "official security policy" as "non-participation in military alliances during peacetime and neutrality during wartime." However, Sweden does contribute to various NATO and EU battlegroups and is involved in international organizations.[6] From March–October 2011, Sweden was a participant in the NATO-led international contingent in the War in Libya.

Funny fact is that mainly that term is used by Russian and pro-Russian propaganda, no where else in the World. Everywhere else you'll read western countries ( meaning a physical/geographical area ) or western culture ( which means practically 1/3 of the World ).

You should use google and try the search term "The West" in combination with global political happenings, you will be probably surprised to find such words quite often in the international press.

Edited December 1, 2014 by oxmox

[surpher 1]

(Map Investigation Blog) Comparing cross-border attack data with official reports

This post presents a review of the cross-border attacks given by the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine and the State Border Guard Service of Ukraine between 8th July and 5th September 2014.

[Tonci87 163]

The new ceasefire already seems to have been broken by the separatists. They tried to attack Donetsk airport again.

[Heeeere's johnny! 51]

According to you a country can only gain power through wars.

I wrote about "a peacful way". We may have a different opinion on what "peaceful ways" are, but I consider annexation or intentionally putting countries into dept not as "peaceful" in the meaning of making contracts at eye level, even though such ways of gaining power are not war.

You also said that today Germany is the most powerfull country in Europe.

Well they were pretty powerless after the second world war and they didn´t invade any neighbouring country since then.

How come they are so powerfull?

Did somebody loose power for them to take over?

Indeed, after WWII, Germany's neighbours and the US did not want Germany to be a threat ever again. That's why today, Germany's way of policy is so inflexible and clustered and thereby barely achieve any big progress.

But you must not forget that Germany was divided from 1949 to 1990 and the propaganda required that both parts of Germany are sort of a shop window for the other side. That's why e.g. the Marshallplan on the west side of Europe and that's why Germany grew so quickly and today is one of the economically most powerful countries in the world. (different topic though)

There are also other means of projecting power than through wars and diplomacy. Take the US as an example. They didn´t invade the whole world but amercian culture is very popular in most countries of the world.

The US are another story. You should keep in mind that they control the World Bank, the United Nations and all rating agencies except for one.

The "American way of Life" is a result of massive marketing campaigns mixed with luck and a bit more stuff. There is a very good documentary, unfortunately only in German, which shows that the US could not get the Germans to like the "social market economy" despite all the propaganda movies they've shown during the years after the war. But after the Berlin Airlift, they were seen as "The Liberators" and that philopsophy is still spread very widely throughout Germany and Europe.

If you are as lucky as I am, ask your Ukrainian mates / friends.

As I've got a guy in my circle of friends, who has friends and family in Russia, I can only say what he tells me, so please forgive me that I do not have a view of how Ukrainians think AND please don't judge me if you don't like what I'm writing, because the following statement is not my opinion:

[bEGIN-OF-NOT-MY-OPINION]

As for the Russians, my russian friend tells me that ever since this whole conflict evolved, the more Russia did to defy the western (NATO and EU) and ukrainian (government) actions, the more Putin was critisized for that policy and the more the people of Russia liked him, because he shows strength.

Some problems with that are that many Ukrainians (mostly in the east, obviously) hope for russian protection (I hope you understand that as this otherwise might require a discussion about the history of ethnic groups in Ukraine) as they feel threatened by the Kiev policy and the many Ukrainian fascists which the western media barely tells anything about. But Putin knows that he cannot simply invade eastern Ukraine, because he'd be "the ultimate bad guy" then as which many people already see him, anyways.

So the Russians want him to defy the west (NATO and EU), the East-Ukrainians want him to protect them from discrimination and "domestic enemies" (can't find a better word right away) and the west wants him to back off.

[END-OF-NOT-MY-OPINION]

In my opinion, nobody can honestly believe that the west would back off themselves, so why should Russia?

[Tonci87 163]

Because they started this whole fuckup in the first place?

[Heeeere's johnny! 51]

The US started the wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. None of these countries were either a threat or did ever attack the US. Did anyone ever expect them to stop? Just after years of shit going sideways and the growth of a big anti-war public.

And don't fool yourself. When war has begun, it doesn't matter anymore who started it. What then matters is who's better in selling it to the world. You shouldn't underestimate the power of propaganda, just like many people underestimate the power of advertisement.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Heeeere's Johnny!

[Tonci87 163]

And again the "They did it too!" excuse....

Always the same.

[Heeeere's johnny! 51]

I'm not excusing anything. I'm saying that who started the war is irrelevant and wanted to underline that statement with the fact that Russia behaves in no way different than the US or other countries did and still do.

[oxmox 73]

Poroshenko proposes changes to law to allow foreigners to hold senior positions in Ukraine (2014;November 27th)

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has called for the introduction of amendments to Ukrainian legislation to allow foreigners to hold senior positions in Ukraine.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poroshenko-proposes-changes-to-law-to-allow-foreigners-to-hold-senior-positions-in-ukraine-373329.html

The law changes did make the following possible in short time, with the aim to counter corruption and Oligarchs/cliques...

3 Foreigners co-govern in Kiev now

One American, one Lithuanian and one Georgian are taking over important positions in the new cabinet in Kiev. Controversial is the new Ministry of Information, which should counter Moscow´s propaganda.

Finance Minister:

Natalie Jaresko - born in Chicago/USA; former emplyed in the US-Foreign Ministry and recently working as an US Investment Banker

With the United States facing accusations of political meddling in Ukraine, Jaresko's new role has raised eyebrows.

Economy Minister:

Aivaras Abromavicious - born in Vilnius/Luthiania; Investment Banker

He is a partner and fund manager at the East Capital asset management group. The group is a major player in Ukraine, where it invested almost $100 million in 2012.

Health Minister

Aleksandr Kvitashvili - born in Georgia; Health Minister in Georgia from 2008-2010.

After graduating in 1993, he did a brief stint working in the United States at the Atlanta Medical Center as an administrative and finance officer. He returned to Georgia the same year to work for the United Nations Development Program.

'No Big Brother!' Ukrainian Journalists Oppose Kyiv's New Ministry Of Information

"It is not a good start for a new elected senat to initiate some kind of Propaganda Ministery" - reporters without boarders

The whole positive on these new faces faded, due to the fact of a new established Ministry of Information.

"Ministry of Truth" is it called in the meanwhile refering to the George Orwell roman 1984, says Sergej Leschtschenko which is as of shortly a famous investigative Journalist in the Ukraine and changed to politics after the Maidan events.

The Ministry of Information is initiated to counter Russian propaganda, which did play a big role during the conflict in the Ukraine.

But many ukrainian Journalists have not the opinion to fight propaganda with counter-propaganda. They fear the government could restrict the press freedom.

It is only known that the new Ministry of Information will be led by one of the close ally of the President.

Interior Ministry adviser Anton Herashchenko said on November 30 that the main task of the new ministry would be "protection of Ukraine's information space from Russian propaganda and counterpropaganda in Russia [and] in the temporarily occupied territories" of Crimea and the Donbas region.

However, the move to create the ministry also closely follows the publication of reports by several Ukrainian journalists and human rights groups regarding possible war crimes committed in eastern Ukraine by right-wing nationalist militias as well as Russian-backed separatist forces.

The Ukrainian military this week sent contradictory signals over whether it would seek to control Ukrainian journalists' access to eastern Ukraine by insisting that reporters henceforth only travel to front-line areas in special groups escorted by soldiers.

Media-rights groups both in Ukraine and abroad widely condemned the regulation when it was announced, calling it an illegal attempt to silence journalists. The criticisms were widely shared on social media.

The international media rights group Reporters Without Borders has also criticized Kyiv's decision to establish the Information Ministry.

"It is not the task of the governance to control Informations", says chief executive from reporter without boarders - Christian Miehr and he mentioned,

"It is not a good start for a new elected senat to initiate some kind of Propaganda Ministery"

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article134991182/Drei-Auslaender-regieren-jetzt-in-Kiew-mit.html

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-new-ministers-foreign-born-jaresko-abromavicius-kvitashvili/26723564.html

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-ministry-information-journalists-protest/26723352.html

---------- Post added at 02:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 AM ----------

But you must not forget that Germany was divided from 1949 to 1990 and the propaganda required that both parts of Germany are sort of a shop window for the other side. That's why e.g. the Marshallplan on the west side of Europe and that's why Germany grew so quickly and today is one of the economically most powerful countries in the world. (different topic though)

Thats only half the truth' date=' the main reason why Germany did grew so quickly after the war were other reasons:

*War industry exports due to the Korean War 1950-53

*germans very cheap labour costs (think of China) but very high technological standards/education, germany was leader in many technologies.

* mostly civilian destroyed infrastructure but not industrial "ground zero"

* one of the first countries with US style automated mass production

* Plans and support to change germany into a consumer society based on the US model, which was also an important political decision not only profit based. Which wasnt that easy because of the long traditional social politics and achievements in Germany, rather an anti-capitalistic society. For the US even social democracy was socialism. At the end the country changed successfully into a social market economy.

The Marshallplan did not play such a big role like some think, other countries in Europe got way higher Marshall Plan funds than germany.

The Marshall Plan as the main reason for the quick grow in Germany is a myth and was not that important for the german economic miracle.

This is a very interesting and eye opening documentary, which was aired on the national channel one.

It is a "must watch", lots of University Profs are getting interviewed who research about it.

Das Märchen vom Wirtschaftswunder (german lang.)

Edited December 5, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

I'm not excusing anything. I'm saying that who started the war is irrelevant and wanted to underline that statement with the fact that Russia behaves in no way different than the US or other countries did and still do.

How many countries / territories did the US annexed during the last 50 years? How many Russia/USSR?

How many wars / conflicts has the US participated unilaterally, alone and without UN approval?

So no. It's not the same situation. Which doesn't mean I agree with the US foreign policies, I do not. For example I was against the war in Iraq since day one and condemn the coalition for the useless intervention. But you can't seriously compare.

I also have Russian friends and work mates, some of them also share the opinion you wrote above, IMO heavly influenced / manipulated by the Kremlin funded Russian media.

Funny fact is that the conflict in Eastern Ukraine started "technically" because the Ukrainian Gov. revoked the law that made the Russian Language coofficial national wide. Does that mean that is forbidden? No, absolutely not. Does it mean that the Russian speaking Ukrainians would have any issue, nope. In fact even nowadays a most of the Russian speaking regions of Ukraine support and voted for the actual Gov. Even some battalions of the new National Guard are composed by Russian speaking Ukrainians.

Then why the Russian media accused the Ukrainian Gov. of being nazis, of prosecuting the ethnic Russians, and forbidding them to use their language? To have someone to blame for the poor performance of Russia, and to hide Putin's authoritarian actions. That's why also Putin blames the Western governments, in fact it's nothing new. Hitler himself did it, and many other authoritarian figures.

Best of all, the Kremlin funded media and Putin himself said that the "separatist" movement in Donbass was perfectly logical, legal and had all their support. While in Russia Putin promoted this last summer laws that forbbid any kind of public display of support for pro-separatist movements inside Russia.

Edited December 5, 2014 by MistyRonin

[beastcat 14]

"Rambo" from the "DPR" claims he has killed 5475 ("15x the amount of days in a year") US and polish snipers in the Donetsk Airport.

[mistyronin 1181]

Best soldier ever, he killed himself more people than the total of casualties of the war in the Donbass, which is about 4500 right now.

Maybe he also shot down the Malaysia Airlines' plane.

[oxmox 73]

21st Century Cold War Has Began; US House Of Reps Passes Resolution 758

Thursday, its House of Representatives passed Resolution 758, a decree telling the U.S., Europe and its' allies to "aggressively keep the pressure" on Russia and its President Vladimir Putin until such measures "change his behaviour."

As U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry urged Russia not to isolate itself during a meeting of the 57 members of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in the northern Swiss city of Basel, Resolution 758 had called for the reinforcement of NATO and the sale of U.S. natural gas to Europe, alluding away from Russian energy exports.

The resolution has likewise effectively given the government of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko the go signal to launch military actions against the "separatists" in Eastern Ukraine.

"It is not only a declaration of a U.S. Cold War against Russia but it is a declaration of war for Kiev against Donetsk and Lugansk," Daniel McAdams, executive director at the Ron Paul Institute, told RT News. Resolution 758, described as a decree that strongly condemns Moscow's aggressive actions against its neighbours, was a document that had opened Pandora's box of global military conflicts.

McAdams said he finds the resolution comical in the sense that as it accused Russia of holding fraudulent elections in Ukraine, it greenlighted an all-out war urging the U.S. and NATO forces when, it fact, Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/574969/20141205/cold-war-house-resolution-758-russia-isolation.htm

Ukraine's forgotten security guarantee: The Budapest Memorandum

Twenty years ago, Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees from Russia and the West. Today Kyiv feels betrayed - and not merely by Moscow.

The document was signed on 5 December, 1994 at the summit of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). In it, Ukraine, a nuclear power at that time, voluntarily gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees.

But Leonid Kravchuk, then the president of Ukraine, told DW that was only formally the case. De facto, Kyiv was powerless.

"All the control systems were in Russia. The so-called black suitcase with the start button, that was with Russian president Boris Yeltsin."

It would have been too expensive for Ukraine to manufacture and maintain them on its own.

"It would have cost us $65 billion (53 billion euros), and the state coffers were empty," Kravchuk said.

Additionally, the West threatened Ukraine with isolation since the missiles were supposedly aimed at the United States. Therefore, "the only possible decision" was to give up the weapons, according to Kravchuk.

"Nowhere does it say that if a country violates this memorandum, that the others will attack militarily," said Gerhard Simon, Eastern Europe expert at the University of Cologne.

German journalist and Ukraine expert Winfried Schneider-Deters agrees, telling DW, "The agreement is not worth the paper on which it was written."

http://www.dw.de/ukraines-forgotten-security-guarantee-the-budapest-memorandum/a-18111097?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf

Edited December 5, 2014 by oxmox

[SpookyGunship 10]

"Rambo" from the "DPR" claims he has killed 5475 ("15x the amount of days in a year") US and polish snipers in the Donetsk Airport.

You know what i find most amuseing about the DNR Rebells? How stupid their whole act is. I mean i get it at some point that the communist system dumbed down the population and killed everyone with an IQ over 80 points, but come on. I mean seriously, come on.

[aleksadragutin 9]

You know what i find most amuseing about the DNR Rebells? How stupid their whole act is. I mean i get it at some point that the communist system dumbed down the population and killed everyone with an IQ over 80 points, but come on. I mean seriously, come on.

If they all are realy that stupid, then how come Ukraine is having so much problems with them?

[mistyronin 1181]

If they all are realy that stupid, then how come Ukraine is having so much problems with them?

The easy answer would be "Because Russia is behind them. And Russia has way more resources than Ukraine could dream."

But I don't really think the pro-Russian rebels are dumb. First because the whole conflict was created from Moscow, after all most of the pro-Russian leaders where from that city.

And those Russian leaders managed to manipulate enough part of the Donbass inhabitants, which is a success in itself, even if it was done with all the Kremlin funded propaganda behind.

[beastcat 14]

Radio Liberty - Tell Putin You're Sorry!

Are you a citizen of a Western country who is sick and tired of your government's warmongering in Ukraine? Are you fed up with Western media's constant lying about Russia? Don't you just wish you could apologize to Russian President Vladimir Putin?

Well, relax. Now you can.

An online petition called "Dear Putin" allows anybody in the world with an e-mail address to sign an open online letter of apology to the Kremlin leader.

[SpookyGunship 10]

If they all are realy that stupid, then how come Ukraine is having so much problems with them?

Easy answer would be ofcourse because Russia is behind them and the heavy lifting Work gets done by highly trained russian Special Forces.

But the Ukraine itself doesn't realy wanna win this war. At the beginning they just let the Russians and the Insurgents do what they want for month and now they are in this stalemate with a bunch of Rebels. Personaly i think this whole conflict is staged and organized by the old Establishment on both sides.

[beastcat 14]

Ukraine wants to send some reinforcements and is thinking about another mobilisation wave.

---------- Post added at 14:21 ---------- Previous post was at 13:00 ----------

What a professional journalist this Graham Phillips is...

Edited December 6, 2014 by beastcat

[mistyronin 1181]

What a professional journalist this Graham Phillips is...

Just to give a bit of background info about the subject, he works for RT and it's known in the social networks to be clearly biased towards Russia ( I guess most people could have guessed that from the point he works at RT ).

It's worth reading his twitter.

According to him all those journalist that have never shoot a gun are not real war reporters. In fact most of war reporters never do, and most even refuse to do so. I've a few friends who are war reporters ( mainly photographers ) and none of them ever did.

BTW in his same tweet some veteran war journalist also say that never shot a gun.

Every real war reporter wears combats and shoots a gun (in target practice) at some point. Just some just don't photograph or film it.

Edited December 6, 2014 by MistyRonin

[surpher 1]

(FT) Ukraine’s rebel republics

For all Russia’s influence in eastern Ukraine, a motley group of local leaders — from ex-businessmen to academics and pro-Russia activists — has sprung up and seized control. Courtney Weaver meets the self-declared rulers of Donetsk and Lugansk

I guess Graham is working for LieNews now.