Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr/%D0%A1%D1%83%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%98_%D0%A1%D1%83-25#mediaviewer/%D0%94%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B0:Sukhoi_Su-25_two-view_silhouette.png

The AA missiles are loaded on the weapon carriers that are furthest from the fuselage, everything else is loaded with ground attack weapons and air-to-surface missiles. So it carries 1 or 2 AA and 8 or 9 AS.

http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr/%D0%A1%D1%83%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%98_%D0%A1%D1%83-25#mediaviewer/%D0%94%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B0:Sukhoi_Su-25_2008_G8.jpg

As you can see there are 2 AA even if it is almost completely armed for ground attack.

[surpher 1]

(Itar-Tass) OSCE observers start working on Russia-Ukraine border

“We have gathered the first group which is ready to start working and a large amount of work is in store for us. Four observers are already working here. I work here as the chief observer and there are three members of administrative personnel. New observers will be included in the group soon,†Picard said.

(The Wall Street Journal) Map of a Tragedy:How MH17 Came Apart Over Ukraine

The Wall Street Journal cataloged and mapped some of the debris of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which fell across three Ukrainian villages after the Boeing 777 was brought down on July 17, allegedly by a surface-to-air missile.

Edited July 30, 2014 by surpher

[beastcat 14]

"July 29, 2014 terrorists from the "DNR" near Torez shot at a column of civilian cars, that were carrying children.

The shooting left 10 children injured and one dead."

[Tonci87 163]

http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr/%D0%A1%D1%83%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%98_%D0%A1%D1%83-25#mediaviewer/%D0%94%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B0:Sukhoi_Su-25_two-view_silhouette.png

The AA missiles are loaded on the weapon carriers that are furthest from the fuselage, everything else is loaded with ground attack weapons and air-to-surface missiles. So it carries 1 or 2 AA and 8 or 9 AS.

http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr/%D0%A1%D1%83%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%98_%D0%A1%D1%83-25#mediaviewer/%D0%94%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B0:Sukhoi_Su-25_2008_G8.jpg

As you can see there are 2 AA even if it is almost completely armed for ground attack.

Yes it can carry 2 AA missiles on tol of a full AG armament, but those Missiles can only be Wympel R3 short range IR missiles. still not enough to kill a high flying plane.

[beastcat 14]

More satellite images, further proving, that Russia is supplying the terrorists with huge amounts of russian btrs and tanks and firing artillery from Russia.

"Ukrainian Positions Are Bombed From Russia"

http://youtu.be/2u6VlkNIaAQ

"What was left by the 'LNR' battalion 'Prizrak'"

They left an incredible amount of medical and food supplies from russia, which will come in handy a lot. Finally the army will be able to eat until they are full.
But what is probably more important: They left a lot of important documents. Edited July 30, 2014 by beastcat

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yes it can carry 2 AA missiles on tol of a full AG armament, but those Missiles can only be Wympel R3 short range IR missiles. still not enough to kill a high flying plane.

What are you talking about? It's the R-60 rocket in the picture(that is the picture of an actual Ukrainian aircraft) , and the Wympel R3 is another designation for the K-13 which, as I already mentioned, has a range of 35000m, and even if it's a lighter version of the K-13/R-13/R-3 it still has a range of 8000-15000km (more than enough to possibly shoot down the plane).

Edited July 30, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[beastcat 14]

What are you talking about? It's the R-60 rocket in the picture(that is the picture of an actual Ukrainian aircraft) , and the Wympel R3 is another designation for the K-13 which, as I already mentioned, has a range of 35000m, and even if it's a lighter version of the K-13/R-13/R-3 it still has a range of 8000-15000km (more than enough to possibly shoot down the plane).

What the hell are you arguing about? We already have proof that it was indeed a Buk in the form of shrapnel, debris, the wreckage and satellite images.

[maturin 12]

What are you talking about? It's the R-60 rocket in the picture(that is the picture of an actual Ukrainian aircraft) , and the Wympel R3 is another designation for the K-13 which, as I already mentioned, has a range of 35000m, and even if it's a lighter version of the K-13/R-13/R-3 it still has a range of 8000-15000km (more than enough to possibly shoot down the plane).

Ukraine does not use the R-13, sorry.

And no Su-25 ever has or ever will attain a lock with an R-60 from 8000m. The maximum range figures or IR air-to-air missiles are fantasies, much like the nigh-impossible Su-25 story (which the Russian military somehow transmogrified into a helicopter and hovered over the crash site). This portly little ground attack jet would have been operating at the very top of its service ceiling, with its nose near-vertical, straining to get on target in the middle of a stall. Imagine what would have been required to climb up that high, with performance rapidly dropping, in order to attain a perfect interception of a jet flying two miles above you, with your combined closing speed easily supersonic.

If a Ukrainian Su-25 shot down MH17, its pilot is goddamn Han Solo. If a Ukrainian Buk shot down MH17, its crew are the stupidest people on the planet. If a rebel Buk is the culprit, then its competent crew made a perfectly logical mistake. And that's what makes it an open-and-shut case.

[lesscubes 1]

R-60 rocket has an operational range of 8000m and flight altitude of 20000m, and is also fitted on a Su-25. The K-13 has a range of 35000m, also fitted on Su-25. Completely possible to down a much higher flying aircraft.

What are the characteristics of the sensor package for missile guidance? To the best of my knowledge it isn't normal to engage a target with such a large height advantage. Also, consider that the cruise speed of a 777 is 560 mph AT altitude, the TOP speed of a Frogfoot is like 600 at sea level, in a clean configuration. The engagement window would be extremely narrow.

A SU-25 didn't engage that aircraft unless it was at the bleeding edge of its capabilities and would've been lucky to succeed.

Let alone the thought that a fighter pilot, who of all people would be used to civilian flight profiles could mistake a airliner for something else.

Saying that a fighter committed the shoot down is basically saying you think this was a false flag attack and not an accident.

Now, a SA-11 operated by a nervous, poorly trained crew looking for a nice fat transport to kill could make that mistake.

[aleksadragutin 9]

I'm not saying that su-25 did down the mh17, just saying that it could have. As for the satellite images, that is also arguable and controversial. Why did they wait so long to publish those photos? And what possible reason could the Russians have for dawning the plane (beside being "evil" and so on)?

[beastcat 14]

Why did they wait so long to publish those photos?

If you mean satellite photos, they need time to be sorted out, examined and so on. The dude from this blog got everything really quickly. If you mean photos of the Buk, they have been around even before the plane was shot down. If you mean photos of the launch, not everyone uploads a photo immidietly. Besides, not everybody has 24/7 internet access.

And what possible reason could the Russians have for dawning the plane (beside being "evil" and so on)?

Is it really so hard to understand that not every action has some mastermind behind it? The sun doesnt go down because the illuminati don't want you to see them dancing around at night. Gravity is not because the space jews don't want you to discover their secret base in the sky and are therefore trying to keep you on the ground.

It was an accident. They did not intend to shoot down the plane. Russia has no reason for shooting down the plane, because it simply fucked up.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Sorry but it is kind of hard to believe that someone can just "fuck up" with the buk missile. People are too quick with pointing fingers, the fact is that because of the fog of war we simply don't know anything for certain.

Regarding the weapon supply, why is everyone turning the blind eye to one side. No one said anything when the US supplied the Ukrainian army with armor vests or the rebels in Libya for that mater. Apparently that is legal now.

[beastcat 14]

Sorry but it is kind of hard to believe that someone can just "fuck up" with the buk missile. People are too quick with pointing fingers, the fact is that because of the fog of war we simply don't know anything for certain.

Regarding the weapon supply, why is everyone turning the blind eye to one side. No one said anything when the US supplied the Ukrainian army with armor vests or the rebels in Libya for that mater. Apparently that is legal now.

Oh boy, here we go again. Why do people always have to bring up the US? It has nothing to do with this and to be honest, im tired of talking about the US, maybe someone else will answer for you.

About how to fuck up with a Buk: That has been discussed to death in this forum already. Yes, you can fuck up. But it is only possible for the separatists to fuck up, because they only have the radar that is built into the Buk, they don't have the data needed to identify modern civilian airplanes. The signature they get on their radar is the same as with an A-26, basically just "big plane". They thought that they shot down an AN-26 at first, as is evidenced by numerous social media posts, tapped phone calls, contradictionary conspiracy theories and stories by the separatists, interviews and so on. On their end it looked like an AN-26, which they had shot down before already.

Why is this so hard to understand?

[aleksadragutin 9]

It has everything to do with US, and my point is that you don't know all that, and you are taking other peoples word for it. That's what happens when you only hear one news source and not the other, to try and find the golden middle. Why is no one being critical of what they hear.

[beastcat 14]

It has everything to do with US, and my point is that you don't know all that, and you are taking other peoples word for it. That's what happens when you only hear one news source and not the other, to try and find the golden middle. Why is no one being critical of what they hear.

Russia Today is not a serious news source, no matter how hard they try to convince people this is all some kind of evil conspiracy by the US. I know Russian, Ukrainian, English, German and a bit of French if I try hard enough. I have seen all kinds of media and what I have discovered, is that it takes a really special kind of person to believe the crap russian propaganda produces. You always say that noone is critical, but if you take a look at this thread, you will discovered that people have come here with all kinds of russian media and russian conspiracy crap and it has always been debunked. You can't just take "the golden middle", when one side is constantly spewing out bullshit conspiracy theories that can be debunked by an eight year old, who knows how to look up things on wikipedia.

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

but you and your links and post are so true right?! keep believing your own goverments conspiracy's m8!

[aleksadragutin 9]

Funny thing, people here also say that about the western media. Probably because we have been burned so many times.

[beastcat 14]

but you and your links and post are so true right?! keep believing your own goverments conspiracy's m8!

I still can't loose the impression that you are a troll...

http://youtu.be/X5vr1M2gAzY

They need to fill these with lava and lava resistant alligators with mines on their heads...

Edited July 30, 2014 by beastcat

[maturin 12]

Sorry but it is kind of hard to believe that someone can just "fuck up" with the buk missile. People are too quick with pointing fingers, the fact is that because of the fog of war we simply don't know anything for certain.

Regarding the weapon supply, why is everyone turning the blind eye to one side. No one said anything when the US supplied the Ukrainian army with armor vests or the rebels in Libya for that mater. Apparently that is legal now.

Do you know anything about Buk missiles? No? Then be quiet about the subject, because what you find difficult to believe isn't relevant.

http://suomensotilas.fi/en/responsibility-and-irresponsibility

The author of that article (who is from the military of a neutral country that deploys the Buk and writes independent analysis that sometimes contradicts U.S. State Department claims) says that the rebels' error was very easy to make, given the circumstances. Specifically, that the TELAR unit has a limited search capability, and that once the rebels discovered a radar contact, they would have been very pressed for time and would have been unaware of the target's size, altitude and speed unless they specifically decided to investigate those parameters.

And since the rebels wrongly assumed that their airspace was closed to passenger traffic, they had no reason to identify targets.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Rebels sure, but the US report states that a missile flew in from Russia.

[beastcat 14]

Rebels sure, but the US report states that a missile flew in from Russia.

You appear to have got something wrong. Grad rockets and artillery are being shot from russia, not Buk missiles. The Buk was fired from Torez/Snizhne.

[mistyronin 1181]

You appear to have got something wrong. Grad rockets and artillery are being shot from russia, not Buk missiles. The Buk was fired from Torez/Snizhne.

Yup.

The official US posture is that Russia is providing all kind of heavy weaponry to the pro-Russian ( including Grad, Buk, etc. ).

On the other hand, the US says that they have material proof that the pro-Russians shot down the plane.

And last but not least, that Russian Federation troops have shot artillery across the border aiming at Ukrainian targets.

[beastcat 14]

Yup.

The official US posture is that Russia is providing all kind of heavy weaponry to the pro-Russian ( including Grad, Buk, etc. ).

On the other hand, the US says that they have material proof that the pro-Russians shot down the plane.

And last but not least, that Russian Federation troops have shot artillery across the border aiming at Ukrainian targets.

Well, thats not just the US posture, we have enough evidence that suggest that all of that is indeed true to call it facts. The only country that doesn't acknowledge it is Russia, which is not really suprising.

[nikiforos 450]

USA and the west impose sanctions against Russia and in the mean time Israel is bombing the crap out of civilians and UN safe zones and nobody reacts. WTF this world is f@cked!!!

[lesscubes 1]

USA and the west impose sanctions against Russia and in the mean time Israel is bombing the crap out of civilians and UN safe zones and nobody reacts. WTF this world is f@cked!!!

Wrong thread. The US is pushing for a cease fire. Neither Hamas or Israel is going to play that game. To say the Israeli's have been heavy handed would be putting it mildly.

The situation isn't an exact analogue either, but you know that.