Ukraine General

[blu3sman 11]

Are you definitely sure it was the same Rada that was elected in 2012?

Do you have some other information?:confused:

[mistyronin 1181]

Are you definitely sure it was the same Rada that was elected in 2012?

As far as I know yeah. As Blu3sman said if you have any new info. would be nice to know.

National guard left Mariupol. Note cannons turned backwards, seems they fear of something that may hit them. Good riddance.

Good video as always. I'm still clueless about what strategy does the Ukrainian army follow, if any.

Having in mind the actual circumstances, the Martial Law would be IMO the way to go. Curt-few and anyone in the streets arrested until all the violent groups are detained or neutralized.

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

It seems that the ones that did not respected the "holiday" were the pro-Russians that tried to assault a Police HQ.

( BBC ) 'Provocative' Putin visit denounced

The US and EU have condemned President Vladimir Putin's first visit to Crimea since Russia annexed the peninsula from Ukraine in March.

The US state department said the trip was "provocative and unnecessary". The Kiev government called it a "gross violation of Ukraine's sovereignty".

[...]

As he visited, there were deadly new clashes in south-eastern Ukraine.

Ukraine's interior minister said at least 20 pro-Russian activists and a Ukrainian security officer died in the clashes in the port of Mariupol.

The government said there was a gun battle when pro-Russian activists tried to storm a police HQ.

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

Having in mind the actual circumstances, the Martial Law would be IMO the way to go. Curt-few and anyone in the streets arrested until all the violent groups are detained or neutralized.

Really? yeah you can see lots off dangerous civilians in that footage, not one single one is armed and they are criminals and terrorists because they dont want the "according to you democratic goverment in kiev" regime to come in on a holiday start killing civilians and even a ukrainian police officer and then get the hell out there like the devil himself is after them. btw see the brass fly off the first bmp,he been bussy!

they only got in to terrorise the civilians and then got the hell out off there, and every where in the western media ,oh they killed terrorist in this action but pictures tell a Thousand words, and I havend seen one picture off pro-russian fighters engaging these troops,only ukrainian forces attacking civilians.

Here come the men in black again, I think its the attack on the police headquarters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IueRRP3HyfY

[Tonci87 163]

So to summarize this.

Pro Russian Separatists choose this day to attack a police station. Some policemen were killed. The Ukrainian Army intervened and got engaged in firefights with separatists.

Separatists were using RPGs against BMPs, disabling at least one of them.

The Video rain posted is completely debunked because of this picture

https://scontent-b-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/1982131_629428173806140_7262637108845046186_n.jpg

But this of course isn´t shown on RT, right?

So in that video the Ukrainian soldiers wounded one guy but saved his life with that. And acted in pure self defence when they shot the other guy.

The Video with the BMPs might look drastic but keep in mind that the BMPs have been under RPG fire and the very last thing they want is to become easy targets just because they were stoped by a drunken Mob. The first BMP has it´s cannon pointed forwards, and the last one backwards, standard convoy procedure. I´m not sure what spooky is implying here.

And why are so many peope drunk? In both videos you can see that a good percentage of the people is visibly drunk, and many others have bottles in their hands.

[spooky lynx 73]

Do you have some other information?:confused:

Look at some pages back and you'll see a single man holding a pile of different deputy IDs during voting. Sure you may say they are just too lazy to stay at main hall and vote by themselves but from what I've seen it's not so easy to vote freely when there is a bunch of radicals outside and inside Rada building.

Good video as always. I'm still clueless about what strategy does the Ukrainian army follow, if any.

You should separate army and NG/RS/different kind of MVD and SBU troops. First one does not have any strategy because it's too weak. NG/RS has mainly one goal: opress and eliminate every kind of opposition and support any decision of junta.

It seems that the ones that did not respected the "holiday" were the pro-Russians that tried to assault a Police HQ.

Why should they assault police HQ if much of police servicemen declared that they won't obey Kiev and join the pro-fed protesters? The only one who tried to force policemen to obey was the head of Mariupol militia who shoot one serviceman and wounded him. Later NG troops assaulted HQ and destroyed it, some militia servicemen died (there's a photo of one dead - covered with Mariupol flag, I doubt pro-Russian activists would cover his body with flag if they really assaulted police station).

---------- Post added at 00:37 ---------- Previous post was at 00:33 ----------

So to summarize this.

Pro Russian Separatists choose this day to attack a police station. Some policemen were killed. The Ukrainian Army intervened and got engaged in firefights with separatists.

Separatists were using RPGs against BMPs, disabling at least one of them.

Pro-Russian separatists hadn't attacked police station. NG troops did it because policemen refused to disperse locals gathered to commemorate Victory day.

BMP was disabled because of technical problems - no signs of RPG hit on it, there's a video showing another BMP stuck at the street and towed by second one. Some servicemen think it's enough to put a flag on the vehicle and it becomes fully operational. Look at BMDs that were captured in Slaviansk - ribbon bandages on their wheels are almost destroyed.

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IueRRP3HyfY

Think this is that same streetcrossing,not sure,but look at 4.22 what happens, you see that same crossing in my other post,with one dead on the ground infront off that bar and one wounded next to it.

There is more footage like it on youtube,posted by regular ppl not press and not RT, western media is even worser,wont show anything only pulling the kiev line!

And why are so many peope drunk? In both videos you can see that a good percentage of the people is visibly drunk, and many others have bottles in their hands.

uhm,mayby because its a holiday? want to see you at oktoberfest,wont be pretty 2 i guess;)

[mistyronin 1181]

Really? yeah you can see lots off dangerous civilians in that footage, not one single one is armed and they are criminals and terrorists because they dont want the "according to you democratic goverment in kiev" regime to come in on a holiday start killing civilians and even a ukrainian police officer and then get the hell out there like the devil himself is after them

First the ones that started the "party" were the pro-Russians that have attacked a Police HQ, that's why the Ukrainian Army has joined the party later with the BMPs.

Said that. The Martial Law would be the best option because it remove the civilians from the streets, so reducing hugely the possibility of dead or injured civilians. The army could do their job in peace that is to clear the buildings that have been occupied by armed criminals.

Once the order is restored, the civilians would express their points of view, conduct demonstrations, etc. in peace as in any other democratic country to fight for their rights.

Here come the men in black again, I think its the attack on the police headquarters.

Yeah, we have been keeping track of them in this thread. It's still a mystery who the hell they are. But I'm sure that with the Martial Law and the army being able to do their job, the men in black would have no reason to exist, and if they keep, the Ukrainian Gov. should act against them.

Look at some pages back and you'll see a single man holding a pile of different deputy IDs during voting. Sure you may say they are just too lazy to stay at main hall and vote by themselves but from what I've seen it's not so easy to vote freely when there is a bunch of radicals outside and inside Rada building.

Could happen that one deputy couldn't reach the vote position ( I've seen that in other countries ). But in any case none of them has issued a complain; and they got time enough to go to another country even and issue it ( as Yanukovich did ).

Edited May 9, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

First the ones that started the "party" were the pro-Russians that have attacked a Police HQ, that's why the Ukrainian Army has joined the party later with the BMPs.

Again please explain me, why pro-Russian activists would attack police HQ if police declared that it won't execute the order to disperse locals for sake of preventing commemoration of Victory day and join those pro-Russian activists? Are they so dumb that they assault policemen who sided with them?

[mistyronin 1181]

Again please explain me, why pro-Russian activists would attack police HQ if police declared that it won't execute the order to disperse locals for sake of preventing commemoration of Victory day and join those pro-Russian activists?

Seems that in the RT article we may find the reason:

Many people came to mark Victory Day, but as the reports of shooting started coming in, they moved on to show support for a few dozen policemen who had barricaded inside the building, refusing to take orders from Kiev.

Refuse to take orders of your superiors in a group it's called Mutiny, and is a serious crime. You may recognized that crime for the Potemkin story not that far away from Mariupol.

Mutiny is a criminal conspiracy among a group of individuals (typically members of the military; or the crew of any ship, even if they are civilians) to openly oppose, change or overthrow a lawful authority to which they are subject. The term is commonly used for a rebellion among members of the military against their superior officer(s), but can also occasionally refer to any type of rebellion against an authority figure.

[Rain^^ 10]

Now please link me to the Ukrainian shop where I can buy military grade weapons and vehicles. If you can´t do that then please STFU.

http://rst.ua/oldcars/specialtech/btr/

And now you need relax. I see that you know nothing about Ukraine and Russia. All that you can read this rubbish from Spiegel, Guardian, BBC and other "objective" media. Before talking here about Ukrainians come to the South-East of Ukraine.

You can also buy American field ration, Ukrainians are now actively selling them on the Internet :D

Ukraine has long been sold out his army.

https://scontent-b-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/...45046186_n.jpg

But this of course isn´t shown on RT, right?

I advise you to watch the entire video and not spread here pictures of it.

The man in hands PM-T. I hope you know what this?

And about the Russian troops who invaded Crimea. When they invaded there? They were there on a permanent basis and people of the Crimea were glad of this. Especially now after the events in Odessa. I just advise you to come to the Crimea and not spray saliva here. Nerve cells do not restores.

I liked satelite imagery that Americans showed and said! It was Russian troops in the Crimea and on borders. But as it turned out these pictures were taken in 2013 in the Rostov region.:D

Edited May 9, 2014 by Rain^^

[mistyronin 1181]

http://rst.ua/oldcars/specialtech/btr/

We all know that link, has been in this thread before, and they only sell unarmed vehicles, with all the systems scrapped.

So again, where do they buy that weapons? The Grad, the AA, the AT, the BMD cannon...

But don't worry, that you don't have to answer, because we all know that all of that weapons have been captured from the Ukrainian army, the rebels itself said it ( and the Ukrainian army acknowledge it ).

And all this subject, is because you compare the maidan demonstrators that carried sticks, stones, cocktails molotov and pellet guns with the pro-Russian militia heavily armed with war weapons.

[blu3sman 11]

Look at some pages back and you'll see a single man holding a pile of different deputy IDs during voting. Sure you may say they are just too lazy to stay at main hall and vote by themselves but from what I've seen it's not so easy to vote freely when there is a bunch of radicals outside and inside Rada building.

1 The parliament is the same 2012 legit parliament

2 The man with a bunch of cards is commie

3 It is unknown when this photo was taken. You linked to a compilation of non-personal votings. Maybe it covers last 10 years.

---------- Post added at 00:45 ---------- Previous post was at 00:27 ----------

Before talking here about Ukrainians come to the South-East of Ukraine.

Oh the "South-East".. What are those magic lands and people of "South-East"? All you hear from Kremlin, Kremlin-TV and Kremlin-terrorists is a "South-East" rhetorics. This term is pushed everywhere, like theres some wonderful "Nation of South-East". What specifically does it mean?

Is this the promised Novorossia, opressed russian-speaking people who dream to be invaded and become a corridor of drug- and weapon-traffic to Transnistria?

More peacefull citizens celebrating a holiday:

Edited May 9, 2014 by Blu3sman

[Tonci87 163]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IueRRP3HyfY

Think this is that same streetcrossing,not sure,but look at 4.22 what happens, you see that same crossing in my other post,with one dead on the ground infront off that bar and one wounded next to it.

There is more footage like it on youtube,posted by regular ppl not press and not RT, western media is even worser,wont show anything only pulling the kiev line!

uhm,mayby because its a holiday? want to see you at oktoberfest,wont be pretty 2 i guess;)

Check this picture, it is from the same scene. The soldiers were shooting in self defence.

https://scontent-b-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/1982131_629428173806140_7262637108845046186_n.jpg

Also listen to the video! At 0:03 you can hear two pistol shots answered by the Ukrainian rifles. Pure self defence.

Yeah but that isn´t exactly Oktoberfest there.

You know we have national holidays in Germany too, and I also know them from Croatia. Usually you won´t find that many drunk people on the open street in broad daylight (exceptions are the karneval on the rhine and of course the Oktoberfest (wich takes place in a dedicated area). Both Events are terribly overrun by tourists and usually they are the most drunk.)

http://rst.ua/oldcars/specialtech/btr/

And now you need relax. I see that you know nothing about Ukraine and Russia. All that you can read this rubbish from Spiegel, Guardian, BBC and other "objective" media. Before talking here about Ukrainians come to the South-East of Ukraine.

You can also buy American field ration, Ukrainians are now actively selling them on the Internet :D

Ukraine has long been sold out his army.

I advise you to watch the entire video and not spread here pictures of it.

The man in hands PM-T. I hope you know what this?

And about the Russian troops who invaded Crimea. When they invaded there? They were there on a permanent basis and people of the Crimea were glad of this. Especially now after the events in Odessa. I just advise you to come to the Crimea and not spray saliva here. Nerve cells do not restores.

I liked satelite imagery that Americans showed and said! It was Russian troops in the Crimea and on borders. But as it turned out these pictures were taken in 2013 in the Rostov region.:D

Dude unless you can link me to a Ukrainian shop where I can buy RPGs and military grade vehicels, I would ask you kindly to stop spreading nonsense propaganda.

Also I really don´t care if that is a PM-T or not and neither did the soldiers. He was holding something in both hands and pointing it at them. So either it is a pistol or he was really stupid. I assume it was the first one and you can hear it shooting in the video.

Don´t believe the propaganda that tries to tell you that all pro Ukrainians are fashists who walk around killing Russians for fun.

@Spooky There was a video in this thread with a BMP2. It had a nice hole in the side and oil leaking from underneath it, that didn´t just break down. That was hit by an RPG. We know that the Separatists have access to those.

[negah 26]

http://rt.com/news/158032-kherson-governor-hitler-liberator/

Yeah Hitler indeed wanted to liberate the territories east of Germany from slavs, 65% Ukrainians should be exterminated.

And now our own chancellor has sided with those people. I wonder if that video will ever be shown in our news.

Oh wait, let me guess, that governor must be Putins agent and provocator too.

Edited May 10, 2014 by negah

[mistyronin 1181]

Yeah Hitler indeed wanted to liberate the territories east of Germany from slavs, 65% Ukrainians should be exterminated.

And now our own chancellor has sided with those people. I wonder if that video will ever be shown in our news.

Yeah, my friend keep trusting 100% the main source of Kremlin's "objectivity awarded" propaganda.

( News.ru ) Kherson governor booed Communists for ambiguous statements about Hitler

Today, celebrating Victory Day, we remember the turbulent events that occurred during the Great Patriotic War. We remember that people fought against aggressors who tried to take our land.

Those aggressors [soviet troops] were motivated not just by the desire to take our land and enslave our people, but they also propagated slogans about the supposed liberation of nations of people who were living on the lands that Hitler was trying to seize. If you study history, we see that it was [Hitler] who was the first to propagate the slogans “liberating people from the Communist yoke†and “liberating people from the tyrant Stalin.â€

This was Hitler’s first motivation, when he tried to take territory. But our people came together in our willingness to defend our native Ukraine, and presented a united front, showing [Hitler] that people can and will win back their territory. Today, the same thing is happening on Ukraine’s borders.

[blu3sman 11]

On the video governor actually tells this:

"Agressors, who tried to capture lands, motivated this not by enslaving people but by slogans of "liberating nations" that live on territories that Hitler wanted to seize. If you read history, you will see that he used slogans of "freeing people from communist slavery, freeing people from tyrant Stalin"

At this moment crowd totally losts the point and begins to shout "shame, shame". That what happens when you dont pay attention.:)

But I have to admit, his speech was a bit entangled.

EDIT: ninja'd by Misty

[mistyronin 1181]

EDIT: ninja'd by Misty

My apologies :cool:

[negah 26]

If you study history, we see that it was [Hitler] who was the first to propagate the slogans “liberating people from the Communist yoke†and “liberating people from the tyrant Stalin.

If you study history, we see that it was [Hitler] wo was the first to prpagate the slogans "liberating people from Communist yoke BY KILLING MOST OF THE SLAVS".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

I understand you guys from Finland must feel sympathetic to Hitler, you were his allies after all until the earth started to burn under your *** and you betrayed your former ally and turned on Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_armistice

But still believing that Hitler was something like a new messiah who wanted to save the world from Big Evil Russian Communists is kind of absurd.

Edited May 10, 2014 by negah

[ProfTournesol 956]

I understand you guys from Finland must feel sympathetic to Hitler, you were his allies after all until the earth started to burn under your *** and you betrayed your former ally and turned on Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_armistice

But still believing that Hitler was something like a new messiah who wanted to save the world from Big Evil Russian Communists is kind of absurd.

I'm speechless. Not only that's extremely offensive toward Finns, but nobody here ever said that, you should stop watching RT.

[blu3sman 11]

^^ El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

[mistyronin 1181]

If you study history, we see that it was [Hitler] wo was the first to prpagate the slogans "liberating people from Communist yoke BY KILLING MOST OF THE SLAVS".

It's cool because I have been studying story for more than 25 years :cool:

And you are wrong, when Hitler was signing agreements with THE USSR. USSR invaded without any reason: Finland, the Baltics and Poland. All that more than a year before the war USSR-Third Reich ( and Allies )

In the specific case of Finland, USSR said that it was to liberate its people from its gov.

How do you explain that? Why did Stalin invade so many countries if there were no nazis there? And way before the start of the war with the Third Reich?

Note: BTW if you read this thread, you will know by now that I'm not Finnish.

^^ El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

True indeed, besides it's an outstanding painting.

[negah 26]

I'm speechless. Not only that's extremely offensive toward Finns, but nobody here ever said that, you should stop watching RT.

As was I when I saw that speech. Just as all those people were when they heard it.

As it seems you can only offend Russians today and even blame them for starting WW2, something like "Hitler wanted to cleanse the world from Communism --> Russians are the reason why WW2 started and 60 millions people died"

EDIT: Im sorry that I offenden people but seeing how people speak good of what Hitler did makes my stomach turn.

And I dont try to justify what Stalin did, he was as bloodthirsty and power hungry as Hitler and I never said the opposite.

Edited May 10, 2014 by negah

[spooky lynx 73]

Congratulations with Victory day from Osetian volunteers in Donetsk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39vKSrwqFJg

[mistyronin 1181]

EDIT: Im sorry that I offenden people but seeing how people speak good of what Hitler did makes my stomach turn.

And I dont try to justify what Stalin did, he was as bloodthirsty and power hungry as Hitler and I never said the opposite.

But what the hell are you talking? Who spoke "good" of Hitler in this thread? :confused:

I think RT messed your mind. Not even the Governor of Kherson said good things of Hitler. He only comparedHitler slogans with the USSRs ones, to say that they were similar, which is quite true.

---------- Post added at 13:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 ----------

( RT ) Shooting resumes in Ukraine's Mariupol, APC on fire - witnesses

RT should hire a militar advisor, if it's true that is a BMD on fire would be an IFV not an APC.

BTW, I would bet that it's the BMP that was abandoned yesterday by the Ukrainian Army ( look at the shape from the video )

Edited May 10, 2014 by MistyRonin
Corrected

[negah 26]

But what the hell are you talking? Who spoke "good" of Hitler in this thread? :confused:

Was pointing at that governor. See below.

BTW you attribute me in your last post a phrase from the speech of the Governor of Kherson. Correct it.

Corrected.

I think RT messed your mind. Not even the Governor of Kherson said good things of Hitler. He only comparedHitler slogans with the USSRs ones, to say that they were similar, which is quite true.

“Liberating people from the Communist yoke†and “liberating people from the tyrant Stalin" sounds like a good motivation to start a war doesnt it, its what the governor said according to News.ru

Sounds just as good as "Hey lets kill half a million Iraqis and bomb their country into stone age to spread democracy"

As for RT messing my mind. I can say the same about CNN and other mainstram meida brainwashing people here. Why is that every journalist is bound to lose his job if he tells something that does not go with the official version?

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/10/21/mainstream-journalists-expose-911-hoax/

Why is every blogger who is expressing his own opinion about some political events is branded as conspiracy theorist or worse sooner or later.

EDIT:

In Germany there is a new swear word "Putinversteher", e.g. someone who understands Putin.

Ususally people a called it if they have a positive or NEUTRAL view of what Russia is doint atm. That people are also told to GTFO to Russia if they like Putin so much.

That actually means you have to swear about Russians all the time and god forsake youll even try to understand why are they doing what they are doing. Only then are you a good guy and not a Putinversteher.

Edited May 10, 2014 by negah