Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

do you expect RS to not react ? it is normal , like in Crimea there were those bikers from this "wolf-something" group kidnapping people if you remember (those guys who drive chopers with Putin),

always, in every such situation nationalists are on first line, it is natural, normal, not surprising,

if separatists will use artillery unit, they will make Ukrainian army also to use artillery shells, than many people will suffer, cause taking Grad launcher is not good, artillery unit is not rifle, when one side will use artillery , second side can use bombs, and than not 8 but 180 people will die, now people lost some windows, than people will loose whole houses

RS shoots to those policemen who refused to disperse local Victory day meeting. Is this right?

Oh and artillery was already used by army about two days ago in Slaviansk: they fired mortar shells at roadblocks and town suburbs. So Grad in the hands of self-defence is way to prevent nazis from another attempt to kill more locals.

[Rain^^ 10]

Chechenya

In Chechnya were radicals, Islamists and other bastards who crossed over to their side. But if you like the Islamists is your right. Your right to maintain Doku Umarov, Maskhadov and other freaks.

partisans who fought with Hitler

For example UPA? I know in Poland like UPA

Yes Stalin bastard same as Roosevelt. Need to study this question. Make inquiries. Search for facts.

But his role in the defeat of the Nazis should not be underestimated.

and Ukraine to 50s

yet where documents confirming all of these crimes?

nvasion of Czech in 1968

And this is the biggest mistake of the Soviet leadership

Where it was possible to agree they used tanks

according to our journalists

:D

Edited May 9, 2014 by Rain^^

[mistyronin 1181]

Rain check my last post.

Self-defence seize two Grad launchers, that had been moving to Markovka, Lugansk region. Mayor (at this video) explains he was given brief order and does not know what to do with that Grads at the Markovka.

Live feed (in Russian) from Mariupol.

Good link. Thank you,

[Tonci87 163]

So Grad in the hands of self-defence is way to prevent nazis from another attempt to kill more locals.

I feel sorry for you if you really believe this.

DO you have any idea of the destructive power of a Grad launcher? What if tomorrow the separatists decide to use it against a populated area because the Government forces are advancing through it?

[spooky lynx 73]

I feel sorry for you if you really believe this.

DO you have any idea of the destructive power of a Grad launcher? What if tomorrow the separatists decide to use it against a populated area because the Government forces are advancing through it?

I do, because I've seen by myself the results of its work. But self-defence guys know its abilities and flaws too. So firing at populated area where junta troops advance is not smart idea, and they know it.

BTW one BMP is seized in Mariupol by locals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdJ0l33jC6c

[Rain^^ 10]

So you deny that there were penal battalions that were used as cannonfoder?

No, I do not deny it. But they were not so much as it is about this write stupid journalists and historians who have never been in the USSR.

And these battalions were not only in the USSR but also in other armies of the world

Soviet Army had special battalions who made sure that noone retreated by shooting everyone that did so?

I advise you less play games and watch movies about Stalingrad

[Tonci87 163]

I do, because I've seen by myself the results of its work. But self-defence guys know its abilities and flaws too. So firing at populated area where junta troops advance is not smart idea, and they know it.

BTW one BMP is seized in Mariupol by locals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdJ0l33jC6c

You are displaying a stupid attitude. Grad Launchers in the hands of deperate men who are with their backs to the wall aren´t a good thing. Never.

That BMP wasn´t just "seized" and it is not going anywhere. It is shot up by RPGs and then abandoned by the soldiers. Seems as if the Ukrainian troops aren´t the only ones to shot today.

No, I do not deny it. But they were not so much as it is about this write stupid journalists and historians who have never been in the USSR.

And these battalions were not only in the USSR but also in other armies of the world

I advise you less play games and watch movies about Stalingrad

I don´t have to make up this stuff, it is well documented what the red army did during the second world war, how high their casualties were and that a significant number of those casualties was because of "friendly fire", inadequate gear and tactics where massive losses were accepted as neccessary.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Tonci87

[mistyronin 1181]

No, I do not deny it. But they were not so much as it is about this write stupid journalists and historians who have never been in the USSR.

Rain the historians that I told have been in Russia, and as I told you they quote Soviet sources of Russian high commanding officers and so on.

Grad Launchers in the hands of deperate men who are with their backs to the wall aren´t a good thing. Never.

That BMP wasn´t just "seized" and it is not going anywhere. It is shot up by RPGs and then abandoned by the soldiers. Seems as if the Ukrainian troops aren´t the only ones to shot today.

Don't go personal, please.

BTW IMO the actions today take the situation more and more close to a situation of Civil War.

Edited May 9, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Rain^^ 10]

Nazi-onal guard and army troops shoot at Mariupol citizens.

VIDEO REMOVED. Don't post videos that show excessive amounts of blood, gore, etc.

Nazi-onal guard BMP destroyed the banner with congratulations to WW2 veterans on it.

Great video. It clearly shows the essence Kiev bastards which support the U.S. and some EU leaders

[mistyronin 1181]

( The Guardian ) Ukraine: siege mentality pushes south-eastern region to precipice of civil war

After a week in which dozens of people died in clashes between the separatists and the Ukrainian army, the region is standing at the precipice of full-blown civil war. On Thursday the separatists insisted they would go ahead with a referendum on independence planned for Sunday, despite Russian president Vladimir Putin's surprise call to postpone it.

Konstantinovka, a town of about 75,000 people 40 miles away from the regional centre of Donetsk, has, like most towns in the area, been engulfed by the uprising that swept the region following the February revolution in Kiev, which led to President Viktor Yanukovych fleeing Ukraine and the formation of an interim government that Moscow has labelled as "neo-fascist".

All the media that is not under Kremlin's control or Chinese Authorities is "fascist"... interesting.

"You are a lying fascist supporter," one of the men tells a reporter, delivering a recurrent message in an unusually polite way. "We only give information to Russia Today and perhaps the Chinese. We know who you are and who you work for."

Some people seem to be willing to kill themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhfPkHvFBvE

Fighting scenes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5MrAZqW2H8

Edited May 9, 2014 by MistyRonin

[betta21 10]

After in European news everything is so simple (west good, East evil, Blogger good, Interwebbs color revolution good) - but in fact things are complex - I'm out. I have no idea whos right or wrong. Especially when its hot, media oversimplify.

______________

daily deals, online shopping sites, hot deals, best deals

Edited May 13, 2014 by betta21

[mistyronin 1181]

After in European news everything is so simple (west good, East evil, Blogger good, Interwebbs color revolution good) - but in fact things are complex - I'm out. I have no idea whos right or wrong. Especially when its hot, media oversimplify.

What European news have you been reading? Precisely in the main newspapers like Le Monde, Guardian, BBC, and so on they don't blame any side ( I'm not talking about the US media ).

About the oversimplification, it happens and is a fault of the new technologies. Today people want the news as they happen, without giving time to the journalists to contrast properly the information.

While in other media like RT take part, and manipulate as much as they can. Funny that being a media payed by the Kremlin ( officially it's part of RIA Novosti, which is owned by the Kremlin ) , is later being awarded by Putin himself as an "objective media" in the Crimean case.

It's like if in WW2 Hitler awarded Goebbles for objectivity in his reports...

[Rain^^ 10]

The Guardian

Why they don't write that National Guard is in most of bastards from Right Sector?

Why are these bastard in Kiev The Guardian called peaceful demonstrators?

In GB it's normal? When the bastard on car kills police?

[mistyronin 1181]

Why they don't write that National Guard is in most of bastards from Right Sector?

I remember that when the Ukrainian National Guard was formed, that the Guardian informed about members of Right Sector joining it.

And Maidan protesters were mainly peaceful, obviously that changed when Yanukovich issued orders to crush them with war weapons. But that has already been talked.

I think that by specially violent in UK they mean something like the Troubles.

BTW I don't have any empathy for the Right Sector guys, and we all know their nature, but it's a bit annoying to read the word bastard every line, would you mind tone your words down a bit.

[Rain^^ 10]

Guardian, BBC

Do you really believe everything that is written there?

[mistyronin 1181]

Do you really believe everything that is written there?

Of course not. Even the best journalists in the world can make mistakes and be partial some times, or trust bad sources.

That's why nowadays we have thousands of medias all over the world, besides common people social media; to check the information.

I have worked as a photojournalist, and even being in the same spot, witnessing the same events first hand; some of my colleagues perspective was different from mine.

[Rain^^ 10]

would you mind tone your words down a bit.

Ok, sorry.

when Yanukovich issued orders to crush them with war weapons.

I can look at least a copy of these orders? Please show these documents.

---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------

Of course not. Even the best journalists in the world can make mistakes and be partial some times, or trust bad sources.

I just remember how the Guardian and BBC wrote about how Russian troops invaded Georgia and fired BM-21 Grad on civilians.

[mistyronin 1181]

I can look at least a copy of these orders? Please show these documents.

Unfortunately not for now. Although there are enough evidence and witness that make me think that there is more than reasonable information pointing in that direction.

But there are still ongoing investigations which I hope will clarify it 100% soon.

---------- Post added at 17:12 ---------- Previous post was at 16:44 ----------

BTW some interesting videos in the link Spooky Lynx has posted before ( I'm not gonna link the videos here due to their sensible content is against forum rules ).

---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 17:12 ----------

( The Guardian ) 21 people reported killed in fighting at Mariupol police station

Twenty-one people have died after Ukrainian government forces attacked the police headquarters in the south-eastern port city of Mariupol in an attempt to drive out pro-Russia militants who had seized the building, the interior minister has said.

Arsen Avakov said 20 "terrorists" had been killed and four captured in fighting around the building, which caught fire during the clashes. One policeman was killed and five wounded, he said in a Facebook post.

But medical authorities in Donetsk said three had been killed, and 25 wounded.

---------- Post added at 17:28 ---------- Previous post was at 17:15 ----------

Interesting to see the flags of this convoy of the pro-Russian militia:

It stills amaze me how many Communist flags are still flown, even in today's Moscow parade there were a lot of communist signs and flags in the Russian Army units. It would be like if the German Army still used Third Reich flags.

[vilas 477]

For example UPA? I know in Poland like UPA

yet where documents confirming all of these crimes?

i see you are very lacking history lessons if you only think that Stalin is defender of anyone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armia_Krajowa

those brave heroes fought against Hitler and when there was Uprising in 1944 in my city, German forces (mostly SS) along with Ukrainian SS were killing my city,

than after 1945 Stalin administration was killing Poles till 1956 when our Stalin pupet, Boleslaw Bierut died,

after war many people were tortured, their property was stolen, cause communists couldn't for example accept private property, Catholic Church , people who wanted free market etc. also people were killed and tortured cause they simply were not loving Stalin (cause Stalin was treated like God , like Hitler from 1933-1945) and you dare to say it not happened and there is no proofs , those people from AK were killed cause they wanted capitalistic Poland after WW2, not communistic , they wanted economy like before 1939 with a private industry and private farms (land for farmers not for "kolhoz") but they were killed mostly cause they wanted democracy and many parties , while Stalin administration wanted only ONE party - communist party and NO elections , in Poland we had long democratic tradition cause we even voted for Kings in XVIII century, in other countries monarchy was inherited, in our country nobles voted for King in parliament and we were parliament monarchy in XVIII c

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Public_Security_(Poland)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybirak

http://www.derekcrowe.com/post.aspx?id=31

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

denying holocaust is crime in many countries, shame that denying NKVD crimes are yet not crime cause i would sue you for saying that there is no proofs of Stalin crimes on my nation

USSR and Russia (Tsar) killed more people than Hitler , from mid XIX century sending people to Siberia , mostly in Stalin era, when milions of people died, before WW2, after WW2 till 1956 when Hrushchev ended Stalin politics of crimes

Edited May 9, 2014 by vilas

[Rain^^ 10]

Although there are enough evidence and witness that make me think that

Please show these evidence.

21 people reported killed in fighting at Mariupol police station

Just look it(with 4:15) Do you like it?

Today Mariupol. 18+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Td6cdhhK8

Interesting to see the flags of this convoy of the pro-Russian militia:

And what? Russian and Belarus flags. I saw EU and US flags on maidan where captured buildings and burned and killed police. Or it's ok? This is Democracy! Yes?

It stills amaze me how many Communist flags are still flown, even in today's Moscow parade there were a lot of communist signs and flags in the Russian Army units. It would be like if the German Army still used Third Reich flags.

I understand you were not in Russia, Belarus, Ukrain. You do not even know what these flags mean to the huge amount of people there. What do you do know about these countries and the people who live there? Although if all your knowledge is based on articles in the Guardian. I can tell. You dont know nothing about these people.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Rain^^

[ProfTournesol 956]

I understand you were not in Russia, Belarus, Ukrain. You do not even know what these flags mean to the huge amount of people there. What do you do know about these countries and the people who live there? Although if all your knowledge is based on articles in the Guardian. I can tell. You dont know nothing about these people.

So, what do those red flags mean, according to you ?

[vilas 477]

So, what do those red flags mean, according to you ?

means Katyn, means Syberia, means slavery, means terror, means Kolhoz and taking away land from farmers, means shooting in back of head those who for example want free elections, means torturring those who want believe in God, means secret police who type everyone and look if he support only one party or not suuport party, means fight with non-communist resistance after WW2, means no private industry, means execution for being from noble family or being from very educated family (professor, army officer) etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

Hitler = Stalin, SS+Gestapo = NKVD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD and they should be not "heroes" but finish their life in prisons after 1991 and USSR fall

Edited May 9, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Please show these evidence.

Google: "Yanukovich issued order" and you will find most of the evidences.

Just look it(with 4:15) Do you like it?

What should I like or dislike in that video? :rolleyes:

And what? Russian and Belarus flags. I saw EU and US flags on maidan where captured buildings and burned and killed police. Or it's ok? This is Democracy! Yes?

EU is an association of countries. Besides Maidan was a huge protests like you could see in other countries inside the EU, were in the worst moments you could find stones, sticks and molotov cocktails and a few pellet guns ( like in other violent demonstrations in EU ).

And we are seeing war weapons armed militians that some of them come from other countries to fight in Ukraine ( which tag them as illegal combatants according to Geneve Convention ).

If you compare violent demonstrators with militias armed with war weapons ( now BMDs, Grad, AA weapons, AT... ) ... :rolleyes:

I understand you were not in Russia, Belarus, Ukrain. You do not even know what these flags mean to the huge amount of people there. What do you do know about these countries and the people who live there? Although if all your knowledge is based on articles in the Guardian. I can tell. You dont know nothing about these people.

I have visited Russia a lot of times, my wife used to lived there. And I have among my friends people from Russia, Belarus and Ukraine; I saw most of them few hours ago ( you can check that I said it before in this same thread ).

And yeah, the communist flag means the same as the Third Reich ones: dictatorship, military invasions, concentration camps ( Gulag? Road of Bones, etc. ?), millions of dead due to oppression; so what? :rolleyes:

Edited May 9, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

in Third Reich you could have private property, in Stalinism many people lost all their property and after fall of USSR it was "privatised" to mafia (now called Olygarchy), so first they robbed people who had for example land, buildings, than this land, buildings, industry was "sold" to mafia (and intel officers, sons of intel officers) for pennys, and now those mafiozis call themselves "businesmen" and can be found in Wikipedia under term "Olygarchy"

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

Since when are unarmed civilian ppl in mariupol "terrorists"and what crime did they commit when they got shot and killed by Ukraine army? celebrathing V-day mayby?

ofcourse I know Stalin killed more ppl than Hitler and he got a pad on the back for it by the west,polish ppl,jews,and other minorities suffered tremendous under his rule,

and communisme didn die off,it only got pushed in the back and older ppl still want those days back, any young ppl that want that back should get some education to open their eyes.