Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Because russia ist the last country on earth that grants something like asylum for political reasons. Why is Edward Snowden there?

Lol. How many Russian citizens have fled Russia for political reason ?

[Beagle 684]

Lol. How many Russian citizens have fled Russia for political reason ?

You need to have the right reasons of course.

[Nicholas 5]

Ukraine has issued a warrant for the arrest of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Lol. How many Russian citizens have fled Russia for political reason ?

Then been kidnapped and taken back by the FSB or mysteriously murdered.

[vilas 477]

and of course CIA and Mosad is saint club of innocent people...

every country (which is not colony) has it's own interests and takes care about it's interests, plus take care about people who serve interest of that country, nothing new

[scrim 1]

Of course they're not, but you'd have to be incredibly narrow minded not to understand that there is a fundamental difference between the actions taken by the secret services' of democracies, and those of totalitarian regimes.

[ProfTournesol 956]

This article is very interesting : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26318058

The new rulers of the country should act very cautiously toward eastern and southern regions of Ukraine. A partition of the country would be a drama for the whole country, could lead to a real civil war this time. "On Sunday, Ukraine's parliament lowered the official status of the Russian language by cancelling a law brought in by Mr Yanukovych.". That's a major mistake, not a good step toward country reconciliation.

[scrim 1]

Why? It's not Russia, it's the Ukraines. Throughout history, no nation had oppressed the Ukrainians more than the Russians, with the possible exception of the Nazis, solely due to their cruelty. It's a nation that is threatened by Russia via immigrants moved there by the Soviets who are now calling for things such as separation, merging with Russia and a Russian invasion. They're threatened by financial punishments for ousting their unconstitutional Russian lackey of a president, and they are still effectively occupied by tens of thousands of Russian soldiers.

Saying that they are making a mistake is like saying that a victim of kidnap is making a mistake by trying to escape because it doesn't bode well to reconciliation with their kidnapper.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Nope, it's a mistake to forget that 1/3 of the population speaks Russian and that another third is half/half. It's a mistake to forget that it cannot survive ATM without Russian support, Russia being their main client and supplier. It's a mistake to risk a civil war.

[scrim 1]

As it is they've already risked all of those things by ousting their president. Why stop now and make all those risks for nothing by allowing things to revert back to their previous state? Now is the best chance they've had for literally hundreds of years to take another large step away from the Russian yoke, towards becoming a sovereign, independent state.

[ProfTournesol 956]

They ousted their president, but not the Russophile part of the country. They have a chance to show that they are able to build a real democracy, by taking care of their main minority. Not to mention that the richest part of the country precisely is the eastern and southern part of it.

[Tonci87 163]

I fear that the russian military will move in to protect russian citizens if the situation escalates any further.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

That is certainly possible. Stalin's ethnic cleansing is still paying off lol. Putin gets to expand the area under his control using 'Hitlers' logic. (See Sudetenland)

[blu3sman 11]

Specialists statement on the role of far right groups www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/to-journalists-commentators-and-analysts-writing-on-the-ukrainian-protest-movement-euromaidan-kyiv-s-euromaidan-is-a-liberationist-and-not-extremist-mass-action-of-civic-disobedience

[Amra 10]

Why? It's not Russia, it's the Ukraines. Throughout history, no nation had oppressed the Ukrainians more than the Russians, with the possible exception of the Nazis, solely due to their cruelty. It's a nation that is threatened by Russia via immigrants moved there by the Soviets who are now calling for things such as separation, merging with Russia and a Russian invasion. They're threatened by financial punishments for ousting their unconstitutional Russian lackey of a president, and they are still effectively occupied by tens of thousands of Russian soldiers.

Saying that they are making a mistake is like saying that a victim of kidnap is making a mistake by trying to escape because it doesn't bode well to reconciliation with their kidnapper.

There is no unoccupied piece of land in the world and there is no nation which wasn't oppressed by other nation. If to deal with things your way, political map of the world will change unrecognizably. I doubt if some countries will exist in that case. The question is, are you going to solve your problems peacefully or you'll raise another hate topic about what happened in the past and will naturally weep blood.

[vilas 477]

Why? It's not Russia, it's the Ukraines. Throughout history, no nation had oppressed the Ukrainians more than the Russians, with the possible exception of the Nazis, solely due to their cruelty. It's a nation that is threatened by Russia via immigrants moved there by the Soviets

once again you are showing your lack of knowledge and play expert, if you are UK teenager why the hell you play expert on East Europe life ?

there was no suffering from Nazis like other Russians or Poles in this region during WW2, there was Ukrainian SS, they suffered a loooooot in 30s from NKVD which was established from non-Russian nationality officers as historical resources show , as you didn't even wanted to check historical sources about national issues of NKVD (which caused Ukrainian nazism dozen years latter, other issue was it intentional by Stalin or was it not intentional but local Jews wanted to serve in NKVD, precedessor of KGB but much more bloody precedessor , if not this NKVD maybe Ukrainians would not support Nazism, even in Israel they know it and criticize it cause i seen Israeli website where they wrote about it), part of Ukraine was cooperating with Germany during WW2 and even had their own SS troops which for example were making crimes during killing Warsaw Uprisin 1944 (Ukrainians were sent to kill Poles in 1944 during uprising in my city) , Germans were not even half as cruel as Ukrainians , Ukrainians can be compared during WW2 only to Japanese, German Nazis shot people dead from rifle, Ukrainian Nazis were sawning people with saw, hearning about Ukraine that suffers from Nazis i do not know to laugh or to cry at your lack of knowledge, read some things about Warsaw Uprising in 1944, where England not helped, where Stalin forbid Alllies pland to take refuel on Soviet territory and read about Ukrainian role in killing Warsaw Uprising in 1944

there was no moving Russians by Soviet Union, Soviet Union (Hruschov) moved Russian borders and made Ukraine bigger, so it was not pushing Russians on territory of Ukraine, but Soviet Union gave some Russian republic territory to Ukraine, those lands which Hruschov gave Ukraine were historically and ethnically Russian, again your lack of knowledge, Crimean area was given to Ukraine in 1954 as repay of USSR to Ukrainian nation for "great starvation" in 30s, before 1954 it was Russian land and there is no situation of "Russians pushing people to occupy Ukraine", simply there is "border moved without looking at nationality of people who live there" in past (all post-WW2 border movements in Europe had the same problem, that Stalin, Churchil and Roosvelt took a pen and draw some lines on map,

if you have lacks of basic knowledge in history you should not play historicians here calling other names on and on, learn more and read more sources before typing things which are not only inaccurate but false,

i do no play expert in history of England, France, Spain cause i do not know it, but you do not know basic things about live in Cold War East but you constantly play expert of it

There is no unoccupied piece of land in the world and there is no nation which wasn't oppressed by other nation. I

exactly,

we occupied Russia, Russia ocupied us, everyone occupied everyone in history ( probably England , Sweden, Swiss, - they were never occupied by anyone)

Edited February 25, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

England was occupied by the Romans, then there were several germanic invasions (Angles, Saxons etc...), then the Normans... Well i suppose every single country in this world was at least invaded once.

[vilas 477]

if we would count native Americans, Aborigins, than indeed , there is no land that was never occupied,

but if we not look that deep as before-middleages, than Australia, Iceland? New Zealand? Sweden, Switzerland ? England (if not count Roman era) :D

what about Mongolia? :D maybe we can found 5 countries or 6 countries among 200 in ther world thate were not occupied in last milenium (not counting Native tribes in America)

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

once again you are showing your lack of knowledge and play expert, if you are UK teenager why the hell you play expert on East Europe life ?

there was no suffering from Nazis like other Russians or Poles in this region during WW2, there was Ukrainian SS, they suffered a loooooot in 30s from NKVD which was established from non-Russian nationality officers as historical resources show , as you didn't even wanted to check historical sources about national issues of NKVD (which caused Ukrainian nazism dozen years latter, other issue was it intentional by Stalin or was it not intentional but local Jews wanted to serve in NKVD, precedessor of KGB but much more bloody precedessor , if not this NKVD maybe Ukrainians would not support Nazism, even in Israel they know it and criticize it cause i seen Israeli website where they wrote about it), part of Ukraine was cooperating with Germany during WW2 and even had their own SS troops which for example were making crimes during killing Warsaw Uprisin 1944 (Ukrainians were sent to kill Poles in 1944 during uprising in my city) , Germans were not even half as cruel as Ukrainians , Ukrainians can be compared during WW2 only to Japanese, German Nazis shot people dead from rifle, Ukrainian Nazis were sawning people with saw, hearning about Ukraine that suffers from Nazis i do not know to laugh or to cry at your lack of knowledge, read some things about Warsaw Uprising in 1944, where England not helped, where Stalin forbid Alllies pland to take refuel on Soviet territory and read about Ukrainian role in killing Warsaw Uprising in 1944

there was no moving Russians by Soviet Union, Soviet Union (Hruschov) moved Russian borders and made Ukraine bigger, so it was not pushing Russians on territory of Ukraine, but Soviet Union gave some Russian republic territory to Ukraine, those lands which Hruschov gave Ukraine were historically and ethnically Russian, again your lack of knowledge, Crimean area was given to Ukraine in 1954 as repay of USSR to Ukrainian nation for "great starvation" in 30s, before 1954 it was Russian land and there is no situation of "Russians pushing people to occupy Ukraine", simply there is "border moved without looking at nationality of people who live there" in past (all post-WW2 border movements in Europe had the same problem, that Stalin, Churchil and Roosvelt took a pen and draw some lines on map,

Oops - multiple holocaust denier detected! Another classic from Vilas - overlooks 4.2million ish deaths.

The Holocaust in Ukraine

Between 1941 and 1945, approximately 3,000,000 Ukrainian and other non-Jewish victims were killed as part of Nazi extermination policies, along with between 850,000 - 900,000 Jews who lived in the territory of modern Ukraine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Ukraine

Deportation of the Crimean Tatars

In 1944 under the false pretext [2] of alleged mass collaboration of the Crimean Tatars with the Nazis during the Nazi occupation of the Crimea in 1941-1944. As a consequence, the Soviet government decided the total eviction of the Crimean Tatar people from the Crimea on orders of Joseph Stalin and Lavrentiy Beria. From May to November 10,105 Crimean Tatars died of starvation in Uzbekistan (7% of deported to Uzbek SSR) . Nearly 30,000 (20%) died in exile during the year and a half by the NKVD data.[citation needed] Due to hunger, thirst and disease, around 45% of the total population died in the process of deportation.[7] According to Soviet dissident information, many Crimean Tatars were made to work in the large-scale projects conducted by the Soviet GULAG system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars

So you're telling us the Russian speaking population of present day Crimea sprouted naturally out of the ground when the Tartars were moved out?

if you have lacks of basic knowledge in history you should not play historicians here calling other names on and on, learn more and read more sources before typing things which are not only inaccurate but false,

i do no play expert in history of England, France, Spain cause i do not know it, but you do not know basic things about live in Cold War East but you constantly play expert of it

I suggest you take your own advice and perhaps do 5 mins of research (preferably not on Russia Today, those cuties with dodgy English are used to ensnare vulnerable men lol)

Edited February 25, 2014 by Mattar_Tharkari

[vilas 477]

sorry, i didn't seen those resources in past so i was wrong in that part, but it doesn't change fact that indeed part of Ukrainians were colaborating with Hitler,

Ukraine was divided inside nation as now they are, maybe half of Ukraine was suffering a lot (especially Ukrainian Jews) and another part was cooperating with Hitler regime (and slaughtered Poles, Russians, Jews on this land, of course Hitler was murdering Jews, nothing new, everyone in the world knows it, in past Jews were big minority there, maybe 8-10% or even more in some regions, so there lived milions of Jews in Eastern Europe, also remember that one third of territory of current Ukraine WAS Polish territory till 1939 and when they say about murdering people there, serious percent of them might had Polish citizenship and we knew about them as Polish citizens murdered by Hitler) ,

saying about holocaust on Ukraine you must be aware that in 1939 border line was totally different, so people living in Lvov city which in 1940 were considered as USSR citizens, in 1939 were Polish citizens ,

http://kresy24.pl/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/mapa_Polski_1939_1945_historia.jpg

grey colour area is now Belarus, Lithuania, Ukraine , red colour was Germany pre WW2, borders changed so people living in grey area of map , which met holocaust might have been considered as vicims of holocoust by different stats (one stat might consider them Poles cause they were born on Polish territory in early 1920s, other stats might consider them Ukrainians cause they died in 1941, 42, 43 on post W2 Soviet territory),

Stalin made a lot of mess by moving people to other lands - it was first multiculti ever

2 issue - are Tatars - Ukrainians, cause when you say about Tatars in topic about Ukraine than there is misunderstanding - Tatars are Muslim, Ukrainians are Orthodox, when you say about removing Tatars than do not say about Ukrainians , those are 2 different cultures, indeed Tatars lived there since ages and they were deported - it is true, however you confuse them with Ukrainians,

when you say that i am mistaken saying about non-moving Russians to that region, you giving example of Tatars (Muslims)

Tatars were Polish alliant since ages , since Polish Kings were rulling that region, Tatars were supporting Poles (sounds strange but our 2 nations cooperated in past, after fights some ages ago, so first were were enemies, than we became friends with Tatars), if Ukrainans like Tatars of not , i do not know, for sure one are Orthodox, another one are Muslims and i would not say about "moving Tatars" in case of "moving Ukrainians",

so yes, Stalin moved Tatars - it is true, but can it be given as example of Ukrainians ?

Edited February 25, 2014 by vilas

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

The whole issue is Stalinist ethnic cleansing within the territory of Ukraine. Previous posts of yours have contained blatant anti semitism, then you deny 3 separate holocausts, now we arrive at 'Tartars don't matter because they are muslim'.

As you are an addon maker and member of the slavic union mafia on these forums I won't waste my time on a complaint as it's widely known you can do and say what you like here with full BIS support.

I would just like to make it openly known that I find you your extremist, muddle headed nonsense disgusting.

[Tonci87 163]

The whole issue is Stalinist ethnic cleansing within the territory of Ukraine. Previous posts of yours have contained blatant anti semitism, then you deny 3 separate holocausts, now we arrive at 'Tartars don't matter because they are muslim'.

As you are an addon maker and member of the slavic union mafia on these forums I won't waste my time on a complaint as it's widely known you can do and say what you like here with full BIS support.

I would just like to make it openly known that I find you your extremist, muddle headed nonsense disgusting.

Slavic Union mafia? Wow, just wow....

[vilas 477]

The whole issue is Stalinist ethnic cleansing within the territory of Ukraine. Previous posts of yours have contained blatant anti semitism, then you deny 3 separate holocausts, now we arrive at 'Tartars don't matter because they are muslim'.

As you are an addon maker and member of the slavic union mafia on these forums I won't waste my time on a complaint as it's widely known you can do and say what you like here with full BIS support.

I would just like to make it openly known that I find you your extremist, muddle headed nonsense disgusting.

you do not like to read historical resources too;

so let me assume;

- you say about Ukrainians moven by Stalin and as exmple you give numbers which are connected with Tatars, of course when you say about Ukrainians moved by Russians their number doesn't go to such statics because you say about Ukrainians, not Tatars , you do not see difference between Tatars and Ukrainians ? than if you not see difference , than why you say about difference between Russians or Ukrainians if both are Orthodox Slavic at all?

it is like saying "American troops move to India in 1900" , while there were British troops cause both speak the same language ,

- you say about antisemitism, why don't you like to read if NKVD officers were Russians or not ? or maye you think USSR=Russia, Stalin =Russian, NKVD=Russians and Polish Secret Police in 1945-1956 Poles ? if Soviets put officers from USSR to wear Polish uniforms in 50s i should call them Poles ? a lot of officers (high ranked) in Polish army after WW2 even not knew Polish language, cause they were Soviet officers but who worn Polish uniform ? so saying about this is anti-ism? if Stalin sent there officers from his army which were killing my countrymen i should say they were us, cause they get our uniforms ?

if you are seeing everyone as Russian, than you must read more about who was Stalin, whom he was using, whom he was destroying,

- you also deny role of Ukrainians in WW2 ? read more about SS , which nations were in SS apart from Germans

- saying that Jews were in NKVD officers is antisemitism ? if i will say that Brits were officers in Indian Army in 1940s makes me anti-British ? saying that White were officers in US Army in WW2 makes me being anti-white ?

no those are historical facts that you deny, like Brits were officers in army of India (which was dependent from army of Britain) the same with Stalin era secret police,

Stalin was not Russian, he hated Russians, Poles and he was chosing a lot of his coopeators not from those 2 nations, officers were also the most educated people in area, because noone who cannot read could be officers, it is simple fact,

read more historical resources, cause history is not black-white scheme,

Stalin was mixing people to cause distrust between nation and he was ruling by "divide et impera" , there was no one "soviet" nation like you want to think, there were dozen of nations living in USSR not one "soviet" nation,

i understand that you want to discredit informations that you do not like, but you cannot turn back time and rewrite history,

just like in East some things were not taught, the same apply to West schools, now we have internet and we can read different sources - which you do not like , because there are some historical facts that you do not like about for example Stalin era of repression and about NKVD/UB,

history is not hollywood scheme good guy vs bad guy, victim and opressor scheme, it is not hollywood, history of Eastern Europe is complicated since ages, it is not easy history like some nations have when for example for 1000 years they do not have changing borders and only war with 1 nation on 1 border line, or even without war cause they are island etc.

Nations in Eastern Europe are mixed since ages under different crowns/kings/states , it is not 1 minute "those guys were bad, those guys were good" , not CoD level of understanding

Edited February 25, 2014 by vilas

[batto 17]

There are even people in Kiev who speak Russian and are more or less pro-Russian, which doesn't mean they're pro-Putin/Stalin, but that they have sympathy or feelings for Russian people, culture, ... That law downgrading status of Russian language is indeed stupid move IMHO.

[Tonci87 163]

There are even people in Kiev who speak Russian and are more or less pro-Russian, which doesn't mean they're pro-Putin/Stalin, but that they have sympathy or feelings for Russian people, culture, ... That law downgrading status of Russian language is indeed stupid move IMHO.

I agree, that was a very stupid move.