[SP] Pilgrimage

[Rydygier 1309]

Yes, but I wonder, isn't by a chance that good feeling at the beginning bounded with the perspective of abundance to gain in the future and effective advantage, it will give to me? Then to make the journey rewarding, it has to end with that "disappointment of fullfilment" ("so, I eventually got, what I was struggling for - pity"). If so, when I take from the player that chance to be powerful and to allow him to try this power on his enemies, then feeling my vanish. For example I always hated games like Diablo, where enemies' power is procedurally increasing along with mine - so gaining more power becomes frustratingly pointless. Here that would be another mechanism - very strictly high quality loot limitation as for rarity and amount of ammo for it. So till the end you're underpowered. But if so, enemies either need to get better equipment, somehow not possible to gain by you (I do not like this) or their advantage should be in numbers only, while their weaponry should stay mostly as shitty as yours.

So, if possible - some revealing ideas needed or at least carefull balancing, which is hard to do in open, procedural play. Hard, but IMO doable.

Currently, the only way to keep play challenging we have strongpoints as targets for one-man-army stage. It's nice, still wondering, how to improve things even more on that field. Not in Pilgrimage, but in some future creations.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Rydygier

[law-giver 190]

Maybe it is a little easy due to the abundance of weapons you are able to amass. I stockpile my weapons inside a vehicle and use what i need at a particular point. Maybe limiting certain weapons or weapon types or even removing completely.

A sniper rifle is or can be game killer as you could take out a checkpoint from range instead of getting up close and personal. The GM6 Lynx for example with it's armor piercing rounds which i currently have in my inventory makes it almost feel like you're in GOD mode! Once i have these weapons in abundance nothing can really stop me. I even have the Kuma MBT, which again makes me pretty invincible now. Again what can really stop me but my own stupidity? But some people like to have these in the mission, but me personally to make the mission even more challenging i'd prefer not to have a MBT or an overpowered sniper rifle.

Or have them but with very limited ammo, or almost scarce as in sh*t i can't even find any ammo for this! And maybe have more enemy tanks to make sure if you have the Kuma MBT that you're sure as sh*t are gonna have to fight to keep it! ;)

Maybe take away the option of re-arming the Kuma and other captured vehicles leaving it with limited ammo, or even locking enemy vehicles. Again this will not please everyone and it's probably impossible to cater for everyone as we all love and hate different things! ;)

Maybe at the start in the options menu, easy, medium, hard for example having vehicles locked/removed and certain weapons removed on hard settings for example, and easy have the opposite! :D

Edited March 2, 2015 by Law-Giver

[Rydygier 1309]

Well, at least for vehicles ammo is very limited and opportunities to replenish it rare enough. Idea of reducing/excluding armored empty vehicles for higher difficulty will be considered. Rearming ability however was added because of request for exactly that - some people wanted such feauture. As it is logical, to be able to take magazines from one vehicle to another, I added that.

EDIT: difficulty limiting vehicles may work like this:

- currently amount of empty soft vehicles is like 30 + (floor (random 20)), means 30-49 (+12 boats). Armored: 2 + (floor (random 2)): 2-3.

- I'll reduce amount of armored vehicles by number depending on difficulty above normal. For easy chance for 3 will be a bit higher than for 2. For normal - nothing changes. For higher it is reduced by 1 per level: 1-2 for hard, 0-1 for very hard, 0 for insane.

5 minutes work, so it's done for the next version.

Not so easy with reducing weaponry. Because not so easy to distinguish, which is too powerful. There are sme ways based on config though...

Edited March 2, 2015 by Rydygier

[law-giver 190]

5 minutes work, so it's done for the next version.

You make it seem so easy Rydygier, it scares me. ;)

[Rydygier 1309]

As soon you learn, how it works and what to do, many things earlier looking very hard, become trivial (other doesn't though). After all scripting, and even true programming, or hacking highly secured system, is at the end about clicking the keyboard keys, which even small child can perform. You "just" need to know proper order of clicking. :)

Edited March 2, 2015 by Rydygier

[law-giver 190]

After all scripting, and even true programming, or hacking highly secured system, is at the end about clicking the keyboard keys, which even small child can perform.

Unfortunately, i'm no longer a small child! LOL!!!!! :D

[rg123 10]

As far as the weapons go: I started my game on Very Hard, and set the loot option as... "realistic", I think it was? Essentially, no weapons spawn in cities. I was only able to loot them from enemies I killed.

Even on Insane, where you start completely naked with no weapons with Realistic loot settings, you'd simply have to be patient and scavenge the aftermath of a CSAT/AAF skirmish. You could make it so that skirmishes are disabled, but then you're just making it so that you're unarmed for the entirety of the game unless you sneak onto a military base and get lucky with a loot box... which is possible, I can think of an abandoned military outpost I found on a hilltop near a town.... this was nearly 12 hours into my first playthrough, however. That would be a long time to be defenseless.

I don't think there's a way to make the "late game" section of the mission more difficult. You can only make the beginning of the mission more difficult. Eventually the player will discover that one weapon that changes the game, and it's smooth-sailing from then on out (in my first playthrough, it was looting an MXM 6.5mm rifle, along with a silencer and an ARCO).

You could possibly add an optional food/water requirement as an additional burden upon the player who wishes for such a thing. It wouldn't necessarily increase the difficulty of the game, but it would create an additional task for the player to take care of. "Oh, my character's hungry, let me head into town for some food and water".

Edited March 2, 2015 by rg123

[Rydygier 1309]

I think it was? Essentially, no weapons spawn in cities. I was only able to loot them from enemies I killed.

And from military buildings (usually much better loot, than in civilian houses) - yep, that "realistic".

Survival elements not planned in Pilgrimage. Maybe in some later project, but doubtful too - that requires many additional objects, while I'm not a modeller, or some weird soultions like action inside a house "drink a water" or "hunt some animal" in the woods. In Pilgrimage is, reasonably, I think, assumed, water and food is plenty in each town, in the most houses, you search anyway for other loot, so Alex always easily founds such things, while need for food or even for water grows much to slow to make it a noticeable factor for 1:1 timescale gameplay. Once played Fallut 3 with added such needs. Wasn't bad, but then realized, silent pretending, these needs are handled, doesn't spoil the fun, while gives me more time for real tasks instead of looting for food and eating. Such constant pressure still may be welcomed addition, but scenario should be more focused on this aspect.

Eventually the player will discover that one weapon that changes the game, and it's smooth-sailing from then on out (in my first playthrough, it was looting an MXM 6.5mm rifle, along with a silencer and an ARCO).

Yeah, in games like mentioned F3 devs could artifically differentiate challenge by inhumanly strong opponents, but here possibilites are very limited. Still, we can in such missions make ammo very rare, forcing player to literarily count every shot. So even if he found the best rifle, it can't be used all the time.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Rydygier

[law-giver 190]

I have loot on low setting so basically having to find weapons and ammo at military bases, checkpoints, camps or looted soldiers, not in houses. I found 2 GM6 Lynx's fairly quickly, luck no doubt. In under 2 hours i have rpg's, sniper rifles etc coming out of my *ss! Maybe starting with just a handgun on the harder levels would make it a little more challenging. Then you'll have to get close and personal! ;)

Also with the vehicles MBT for example give them a little more damage costing you more money. Might make you think twice about fixing it! :D

I'm enjoying this mission regardless and i've got no complaints the way it is, the more ideas the better. And just when i think it can't get any better, it does! ;)

Edited March 2, 2015 by Law-Giver

[alky_lee 279]

If you're looking to make it more challenging, you could make it so that when you take loot, it just disappears. Also when you reload, instead of reloading, the ammunition just disappears and the same when you get more ammo from a vehicle. That's what is happening with my current mission and I can tell you it is very challenging.

I suspect TPW Fall may be the culprit as everything was working fine until I shot a specop, but he wasn't actually dead. TPW fall had saved him. When he woke up, he shot me and TPW fall saved me. I killed him, but something went wrong when I used a first aid kit to heal myself. When I tried to get all that lovely specop loot, none of which I had, it all disappeared. I've had the odd rangefinder go missing before but nothing on this scale.

If it continues when I go back to the mission next time, I might have to start a new mission.

[Rydygier 1309]

Yeah, I had some disappearing issues in some missions. Including rangefinder, which I had to obtain using some workaroud, I can't recall. Anyway, I believe, it's vanilla bug rather not TPW's fault, at most something from the mod could trigger that issue on such scale. In fact, I suspect, whole game is much less complete/stable from inside, than it looks from outside. :) Thing is, some problems could be overlooked, as these gets nasty only in heavy scenarios, like Pilgrimage. I still believe, this mission is good A3 engine stress test.

[alky_lee 279]

I still believe, this mission is good A3 engine stress test.

I think the length of the mission and numerous saves/reloads over a number of days tests the Arma engine to it's limits and sometimes beyond. In this case it is a "new" mission but with a major bug.

I have used TPW fall for months without any major problems, but it does work in strange ways. When you shoot an enemy, it deletes the unit, replaces it with a unit of the same class to knock it to the ground, and then replaces the original unit. It can cause units without headgear to suddenly sprout a helmet as they get knocked to the ground and then get up again without a helmet as before. I was probably just unlucky at the time.

[khugan 24]

I think the rules should always be 'mostly' logical. Leave the illogical as interesting options. I enjoy very much solving the mystery of where I am on the island once I've found a map and compass (so I requested this option) even though it's pretty daft to be on this adventure without the proper gear.

[-lordsoth- 15]

Some ideas; should alex know how to drive armoured vehicles? If not just make them locked, is he an ex motorized military soldier?? With regard to the endless loot from ambient combat, after time (2-5 minutes) have a armoured transport arrive to collect the dead bodies - what army leaves the dead scattered all over the map to rot? The arrival triggers a clean up script for a surrounding area so unless your there when the fight happens your most likely not going to find any dead bodies. Second, if you are there you have to worry about when is the cleanup vehicle going to arrive and do you have enough time to run out in the open to loot the bodies.

Make the loot at military bases some what relative to its occupation. Went to a big base that was not garrisoned (lucky for me) but the loot I found there was amazing, too good for a deserted military base.

Is alex qualified to use all weapons? Is there some way to make a penalty to assault and sniper rifles but not sub-machine guns pistols to make him not super human one man army sylvester stalone?

Just some ideas thinking outloud. Make these hardcore only options for those who want the most realistic experience.

[Rydygier 1309]

Thanks for ideas, but I'm thinking about making gameplay more challenging on later gameplay stages, but mainly with future projects in mind. Those may be too much for Pilgrimage.

should alex know how to drive armoured vehicles? If not just make them locked, is he an ex motorized military soldier??

Yeah, IMO he should. He has military experience, including vehicles and that's still better for the gameplay. I could lock them for highest difficulty, but I expect protests even then. And not sure, but this may cause peculiar issues with enemy AI using these locked vehicles. Also hard to explain, why Alex can't even get in the vehicle. So I think, the only limitation here will be described above limiting amount of empty armored vehicles on the map. Anyway, it's not like posessing such vehicle makes you invicible. You have more firepower and armor, yeah, but ammo is limited, and as for ther armor... Well. Using such vehicles in fact makes you much more exposed and fragile to aerial assets (choppers) and each AT soldier becomes suddenly a deadly threat. It's paradox, but world truly becomes more dangerous place for player in armored vehicle.

With regard to the endless loot from ambient combat, after time (2-5 minutes) have a armoured transport arrive to collect the dead bodies - what army leaves the dead scattered all over the map to rot?

It's not an army. These are bands of renegads and such scum fighting for control over Altis in post-war anarchy so yeah, they certainly leave bodies to rot. There is function cleaning up the distand and old remnants though. Has to be, or we'll get accumulating junk causing increasing lags. Cleanup vehicle seem too weird to me though.

Make the loot at military bases some what relative to its occupation. Went to a big base that was not garrisoned (lucky for me) but the loot I found there was amazing, too good for a deserted military base.

But why deserted base can't contain some cool stuff sometimes? If you want to take it realistic, then all the loot should be stockpiled in the huge amounts inside strongholds, and nothing valuable besides that should be found elsewhere. It's not good for the gameplay, so decided, for any reason warlords/renegades aren't able so far to collect all the stuff from all the places. Probably some of the groups, you encounter are sent with scavenging task BTW.

Set loot distribution to realistic, then loot density to 10% and voila - finding anything really valuable not in the hands of hostiles will be very rare and rewarding event. Still, may occur in deserted base as well.

Is there some way to make a penalty to assault and sniper rifles but not sub-machine guns pistols to make him not super human one man army sylvester stalone?

Not really, sadly. You can manipulate only recoil for the unit (frankly not sure, why such command was added).

Edited March 3, 2015 by Rydygier

[law-giver 190]

Thanks for ideas, but I'm thinking about making gameplay more challenging on later gameplay stages, but mainly with future projects in mind.

How about my earlier suggestion, starting with just a pistol on harder levels? Weapon wise that is! ;)

[Rydygier 1309]

Well, technically that's easy to do, eg for very hard. Will make the beginning even more difficult, not affecting later stages though. That one I can do, but really do we want it? :)

[law-giver 190]

That one I can do, but really do we want it? :)

I doubt anyone really wants it, but i wouldn't say no. Would certainly make you more cautious at the start as you're certainly out gunned! ;)

[rg123 10]

JRinit.sqf, I believe, there's lines in the 3000's section that detail what Alex starts with on each difficulty. You can switch the SMGs he starts with to pistols, provided you know the item names.

[-lordsoth- 15]

I must admit that my brainstorming was pretty underwhelming. Really though the mission is bloody brilliant the way it is. Is there a way to remove AAF and CSAT all together? putting in a rag tag bunch of units (like insurgents etc) would help make the immersion of a group fighting in a post-war anarchy.

[law-giver 190]

JRinit.sqf, I believe, there's lines in the 3000's section that detail what Alex starts with on each difficulty. You can switch the SMGs he starts with to pistols, provided you know the item names.

Will wait for next update and see what Rydygier does. Weapon classnames are an easy Google search. Thx rg123. :)

[Rydygier 1309]

Well, Pilgrimage is pretty mature now, I'm tending to think about it as about nearly complete, and close to decision, to announce it final/closed development stage, so not so willing to make serious/risky revolutions in existing rules on this stage. Idea must be really brilliant to convince me :). Small things or additions - that's another matter. I'll be much more open when time will come for next project based somehow on Pilgrimage experiences - as said, there I'll aim for making whole thing at least optionally more challenging all the time. And would like to do something pretty different, using only some mechanics from Pilgrimage. So far only plans.

I'll implement those pistols on very hard, and then release next beta for a try along with the rest of previous changes.

Is there a way to remove AAF and CSAT all together?

The only insurgency faction is western. I can with some tricks spawn those units as east/resistance, but such change will cost serious time/work - in some places units are hardcoded/limited to few options. The worse - such units of artifically side changed my, and IMO will generate most weird AI glitches maybe even like group members attacking each other.

Currently the fact, these are no longer regulars, is emulated by decimated gear. But they WAS regulars once, thus they should still use regular-like uniforms/gear. At least that's the official explanation. :)

The hope is when it come to porting Pilgrimage (possibly soon - when final) on the maps with own native factions, like Duala. Then CSAT/AAF/FIA should be completely replaced by custom factions native for such map.

---------- Post added at 14:27 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------

So, "dev branch" updated to 1.91 beta 5:

- fixed: with enabled AC east could call resistance mortars and vice versa;

- added 2 minutes interval between arty support calls, if last one was refused;

- amount of armored empty vehicles on map depending on difficulty;

- for VERY HARD randomized handgun instead of SMG.

:)

Edited March 3, 2015 by Rydygier

[law-giver 190]

Well, Pilgrimage is pretty mature now, I'm tending to think about it as about nearly complete, and close to decision, to announce it final/closed development stage, so not so willing to make serious/risky revolutions in existing rules on this stage. Idea must be really brilliant to convince me :).

Yeah i agree Rydygier, there's not much if anything that's needs to be added to Pilgrimage now. So, next project please...........;)

[Rydygier 1309]

Indeed. IMO, if anything new will appear in Pilgrimage after 1.91, it have to be truly ingenious or response on some great feature added to the game by BI like women or something... :) Meanwhile beta 5 on the table.

[law-giver 190]

Meanwhile beta 5 on the table.

Way ahead of you! :) ;)