[WIP] Challenger 2 MBT UK

[mwnciboo 11]

I defer to others on this thread that are "Tread Heads" but I did hear something about the requirements of standardizing ammunition with the Germans and the US, and there would be significant logisitcal savings for the UK if it went to Smoothbore using Rheinmetall L55 120mm.

I know that Rifled is superior at range and can push through HESH, but I believe the UK Ammunition is coming to the end of it's shelf-life and a new production run of ammo would be expensive? Therefore the Logic was argued that for an Upgrade of Challenger 2 Gun System to save money on through life Logistics?

My questions would be is it true? has a decision been made either way?

My observation would be, if you were doing a CHALLENGER 2 A3+ or whatever a future mark would be called, you could arguably make it a smoothbore, and therefore copy the stat line of the *Cough*Not-Leopard 2 *Cough* and use that instead and save yourself some effort and time.

[Kaxii 11]

I defer to others on this thread that are "Tread Heads" but I did hear something about the requirements of standardizing ammunition with the Germans and the US, and there would be significant logisitcal savings for the UK if it went to Smoothbore using Rheinmetall L55 120mm.

I know that Rifled is superior at range and can push through HESH, but I believe the UK Ammunition is coming to the end of it's shelf-life and a new production run of ammo would be expensive? Therefore the Logic was argued that for an Upgrade of Challenger 2 Gun System to save money on through life Logistics?

My questions would be is it true? has a decision been made either way?

My observation would be, if you were doing a CHALLENGER 2 A3+ or whatever a future mark would be called, you could arguably make it a smoothbore, and therefore copy the stat line of the *Cough*Not-Leopard 2 *Cough* and use that instead and save yourself some effort and time.

I think that they found a source of HESH and Tungsten rounds in Belgium and that to upgrade to the smoothbore would require a new turret due to the one part smoothbore shells not fitting in the turret of the challenger where only the actual prjectilre is held, (the explosive being in the hull.) So I doubt we will upgrade until they need a new tank which will ever be a Challenger 3 or something else which may have a smoothbore as that would be when you are going to have to spend money anyway.

[mjolnir66 48]

Also, if you want futuristic, look for Cased Telescopic rounds like used in the 40mm gun they are putting on the Warrior. The rounds look like cylinders and take up much less room than traditional rounds.

[Yoshi 10]

So I've been modelling the tracks some more and I am happy to post a small update for you, I'm not finished yet though.

And on the note of Ammunition for the Challenger 2, I am looking into a few things and trying to find the best way to go about it.

---------- Post added at 20:26 ---------- Previous post was at 18:35 ----------

Ok so I have another update for you guys, I've been hard at work today as you know from my post earlier I have managed to model my tracks, and now I have completed them I think you will be pleased to know.

So here are a few images of the model, but don't go jumping to conclusions, I still have to add a few things to it. Also I need to find a few things in order to finish it correctly. But without further ado.

http://imageshack.com/a/img706/5589/2fgm.jpg (190 kB)

http://imageshack.com/a/img822/1697/mnre.jpg (166 kB)

http://imageshack.com/a/img7/2876/e9y6.jpg (213 kB)

http://imageshack.com/a/img191/7462/azfg.jpg (205 kB)

I hope this keeps you going and spurs your imaginations with thoughts of driving this beast.

[skelig 27]

Tracks in Arma games do not rotate, it is the texture that rotates around them so the work you have done on your tracks might be wasted dude I'm sorry to say. Tracks are just flat the whole way round with texture with transparent bits for sides to give it those "spikes" I don't know if this is the case for ArmA 3 but it probably is.

Even if the worst comes to the worst you can still bake those highpoly treads onto a lowpoly tread and get a really good result out of it

115,000 faces is too much for arma engine to handle, I don't think oxygen will even save it at that poly count, do you intend to bake it onto a lowpoly?

[progamer 14]

Tracks in Arma games do not rotate, it is the texture that rotates around them so the work you have done on your tracks might be wasted dude I'm sorry to say. Tracks are just flat the whole way round with texture with transparent bits for sides to give it those "spikes" I don't know if this is the case for ArmA 3 but it probably is.

Even if the worst comes to the worst you can still bake those highpoly treads onto a lowpoly tread and get a really good result out of it

115,000 faces is too much for arma engine to handle, I don't think oxygen will even save it at that poly count, do you intend to bake it onto a lowpoly?

He can make use of multiple proxies to make it detailed, meaning more faces can be used.

[Yoshi 10]

What your seeing is 5 different files in one model at the moment. It is in fact small files put into one, the fact that everyone keeps going on about proxies and stuff like that I guess that is my next step, unless there is something else I should do first.

Now, I'm using blender. How do I make proxies and how do I do LOD's??

[scarecrow398 43]

He can make use of multiple proxies to make it detailed, meaning more faces can be used.

I think you missed the point that you need to import it into Oxygen to get it into game... and at the current level Oxygen will crash if you try to load it.

No matter how many proxies you make there will be no way to load 140k tris when the engine has trouble with more than 20k.

As originally said by BI Dev Earl

The important part is to create the different LODs, not so much the higher poly count of the most detailed LOD.

32768 vertices is a hard limit in ArmA – as direct x counts them. O2's points count is not quite the same thing depending on the number of sharp edges you have. I guess it applies to ArmA2 as well. I think its the max size of the vertex buffer. You'll know when you get there since buldozer fails to draw the model.

Models much over 20,000 points get to be very very sluggish in O2, of course models in that size should be modeled in other software and only imported into P3D through O2, or perhaps even use Synide's Modo plugin to go straight to p3d (but thats kind of offtopic).

Model that is more than 20-25,000 points is already very very detailed, imagine having few… dozen of these models appear in-game at the same time, talking about GPU stress. Anyways if you need the points then you need them, but it would be advisable to try to manage them down in any way you can.

And from BI Dev Vespa:

About mesh detail in 1st person lod - I usually tell the artists to focus on most visible parts, and do them detailed as much as possible. Parts which aren't visible (right side of the weapon, handgrips, buttstock) dont deserve much detail.

You can tell the detail from screenshots, bacially optics cylinder should have as many triangles to not appear edgy.**

I think typical rifle has about 10000 triangles - not the limit, but if you are effective, it is more than enough.

Textures are 2048 usually - but again, very important to be smart with mapping and texel. Do ironsights huge in unwrap, but buttstock or barrel can use much smaller texture area without looking bad

[nodunit 397]

And tracks aren't worth that high of polycount for what you can accomplish with a bit of alpha channel work.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee200/NodUnit/Model%20work/M1A1%20Abrams/tracks.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee200/NodUnit/Model%20work/M1A1%20Abrams/sprocket2-1.jpg

It's not flawless mind you and not the best example (normals not accented enough and alpha sorting issues) but all in all a MUCH better tradeoff because not only are you looking at the immense polycount such things would bring but you are also bringing in a nightmare of animation scripts.

Edited January 13, 2014 by NodUnit

[PuFu 4591]

He can make use of multiple proxies to make it detailed, meaning more faces can be used.

You have no idea what you are talking about, as always, partly because you post about things you only heard but never done yourself

What your seeing is 5 different files in one model at the moment. It is in fact small files put into one, the fact that everyone keeps going on about proxies and stuff like that I guess that is my next step, unless there is something else I should do first.

Now, I'm using blender. How do I make proxies and how do I do LOD's??

regarding tracks: i already replied to your thread in the modelling section regarding this issues. It seems you have not read it. Short version: you don't need all that geometry around the tracks. You can take those tracks and just bake them down to a simple plane, now that you spent time on them

Regarding proxies: afaik, Alwarren plugin for blender doesn't allows you to make proxies (might be wrong though). Best bet is to make them in o2

Regarding LOD's, the visual LOD's and shadow and fire can be made in blender afaik, with a little extra work in O2, the rest need to be done in O2. Use the samples or the web to find out what each individual LOD is there for, and what a LODs are in general

[Yoshi 10]

I did see your post when I got on a few minutes ago, and I understand the model is heavy. but I've spent I think the last two weeks more or less modelling this tank, and to to be honest I don't yet know how to shave off some of the weight without ruining the model, I'm going to look into the LOD's and Proxies in O2 which I have recently installed. The tracks I can do, the problem is I don't know how to bake high poly to low poly. Maybe someone could help with that.

[surpher 1]

Regarding proxies: afaik, Alwarren plugin for blender doesn't allows you to make proxies (might be wrong though).

With Alwarren's Arma Toolbox installed, in object mode hit Shift-A ¦ Mesh ¦ Arma Proxy. Read Alwarren's user guide for full info

[PuFu 4591]

With Alwarren's Arma Toolbox installed, in object mode hit Shift-A ¦ Mesh ¦ Arma Proxy. Read Alwarren's user guide for full info

my bad. even better then

[nodunit 397]

I did see your post when I got on a few minutes ago, and I understand the model is heavy. but I've spent I think the last two weeks more or less modelling this tank, and to to be honest I don't yet know how to shave off some of the weight without ruining the model, I'm going to look into the LOD's and Proxies in O2 which I have recently installed. The tracks I can do, the problem is I don't know how to bake high poly to low poly. Maybe someone could help with that.

Making a model for show is completely different from making a model for a game and you have a lot of poly trimming ahead of you...the good thing however is that with the detailed model more or less finished you are free to begin adding the edge bits it needs for the subdivision modifier to bake all that detail out. For example your fuel drum have a 3D strap across it, you could bake all that detail into a simple cylinder and get even better lighting angles on it with no detail loss if you do it right.

http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100049

Firstly you need to model your low poly tracks, these would be a simple box extruded to fit the shape of the tracks and a mirrored plane (no jointed faces in the middle) to form the teeth http://users.telenet.be/kansloos/crysis.jpg

It may not look impressive in the building process by comparison but once you have the textures all set you will see a worlds difference and here is an example of how http://blog.khamsin.org/public/Tutoriaux/Blender_baking_normal_map.jpg

An example of what the final result for the tracks could look like

http://img-new.cgtrader.com/items/1205/large_l2a6_leopard_2_german_army_tank_game_ready_model_3d_model_8754af4c-e5f3-433d-b51c-8ed87518d229.jpg

http://img-new.cgtrader.com/items/1205/large_l2a6_leopard_2_german_army_tank_game_ready_model_3d_model_b3460084-6304-49b8-a07b-58e88e0a73cb.jpg

http://img-new.cgtrader.com/items/1205/large_l2a6_leopard_2_german_army_tank_game_ready_model_3d_model_c11b3c0f-14ae-4e2b-89a7-e46f4abd0c34.jpg

First and foremost you will need to learn how to UV map and what all that entails, this will get you started

think of a UV map as a roadmap for the texture, this is also what others were talking earlier when they said "more details to the more visible parts", the more visible parts should have a larger UV section (more pixels).

Once you have your low poly (NOT THE HIGH POLY MODEL) unwrapped then you can begin the baking process, as without it the program will have no clue where to place the data.

When I first started with this stuff I found it very confusing because you need to know how the modifier would effect your model along with the; meshflow, topology, edgeloops, vertice placement, . It is a very bitchy tool that demands a sense of uniformity and even if you are working in all quads you can come up with artifacts...to help explain all of this you can watch these short videos, I found them VERY helpful when I was starting out.

For baking it is important to accent your high poly models edges to get lots of detail out of your bake, sharp sudden drops are no no's ( http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=normal_slopes_hatred.jpg ).

You will want to use the subdivision surface modifier for this on the high poly model so that you can get sharp surfaces that end with a smooth or very smooth edge/crease, you never want to make the edge so suddenly sharp as it won't bake detail very well otherwise.

Edited January 13, 2014 by NodUnit

[Yoshi 10]

Ok so I downloaded it and I've got it up in Blender, but the user guide he provides only lightly touches on some aspects. it doesn't explain all that much about what I need to do.

Is there a topic I can look at some where?

And here is the Challenger 2 rendered because I got bored of not seeing what it might look like.

Hope you like it.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Yoshi

[nodunit 397]

Well I can tell you right off the bat that you need to make a set of low poly tracks, teeth, sprocket and track wheels. I have several other ideas but we'll need to see some closer or high resolution wireframe images. Normal maps are your best friend when it comes to lots of small detail or details that otherwise don't potrude with much depth.

[Yoshi 10]

Do I do the entire model again in lower poly? or just the tracks? Because I believe they take up most of the weight.

[nodunit 397]

Can't say for sure until I see some wireframes. It also depends on how much you want to take advantage of the baking process.

Right now I see a lot of cylinder based details but I don't know how many sides those cylinders have, for example are the smoke launchers on the front 8 sided, 6 sided, 12, 16?

Are the road wheels 20 sided? How about those lugnuts, or maybe the cannon? It is a lot of ground to cover.

Also the way you see the model in the editor is not how you will see it ingame, you will wind up seeing far more edges and little details in the editor than you will ingame which is why we use normal maps or fake it in the diffuse.

Edited January 13, 2014 by NodUnit

[skelig 27]

That's a very useful informative post you posted up there Nodunit that will be useful for people in the future

[I34dKarma 1]

Yoshi nice progress on the model I am looking forward to a real MBT to be added to the game. Since the Challenger and the Abrams MBT share similar size shape ect would you ever consider modifying your model to add another NATO based tank to the game?

NodUnit thanks for posting up that info on modeling and UV maps ect. I have always been tempted to try and make a model or vehicle for Arma but got frustrated bouncing all over the net and forums looking for information. That one video you posted answered a lot of my questions. Perhaps you and Yoshi could make a little tutorial on the process to make a vehicle in blender, not so much the modeling itself but UV mapping baking ect. I know with Alwaren's Arma Toolbox Box for Blender it should be easier then it was in the past.

[lincolnlou 10]

Never been a fan of the Challenger tanks but damn u make it look sexy

[Yoshi 10]

Yoshi nice progress on the model I am looking forward to a real MBT to be added to the game. Since the Challenger and the Abrams MBT share similar size shape ect would you ever consider modifying your model to add another NATO based tank to the game?

NodUnit thanks for posting up that info on modeling and UV maps ect. I have always been tempted to try and make a model or vehicle for Arma but got frustrated bouncing all over the net and forums looking for information. That one video you posted answered a lot of my questions. Perhaps you and Yoshi could make a little tutorial on the process to make a vehicle in blender, not so much the modeling itself but UV mapping baking ect. I know with Alwaren's Arma Toolbox Box for Blender it should be easier then it was in the past.

I would be glad to post how I went about doing the model, what steps I took what I prioritized and stuff like that, but anything other than that and your out of luck at the moment, I'm really new to this and basically learning as I go. I'm considering adding more tanks to the game in the future but it all depends on how much I can learn on this mod and how well this mod does in general.

[I34dKarma 1]

Yoshi feel free to get your first mod done before making a video or doing a tutorial. You might have some good insight on how to do things and you can advise the new modders about what to do and what to avoid.

Found this on vehicle creation for 3dsMax, it would be nice to have a companion piece for Blender since it is an open source program that anyone can get at no cost.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?128036-Tutorial-How-to-make-vehicle-models-for-ARMA2-using-3DS-Max

[pulstar 55]

I saw in a documentary that the commander and gunner sights can sync on the fly for target acquisition. Is it possible to script this?

[MindLLeX 10]

Wow! Looking really nice dude! I wish i could model like this... would do all russian vehicles right away. I wish you biggest luck with this project dude!