Catalonia: is Europe’s next independent state?

[Vaniablue 10]

I'm spanish from Madrid and I support them if their decission is the independence. But aside of a part of Catalans that use to talk Catalonian language, the truth Catalonia is just another region in Spain.

They have their idiosincrasy like every region, but far more points in common with the rest of Spain. They are part of Spain since XV century.

By the way, I recommend all people to visit Barcelona, a great and charmful city.

Yes, I agree with you but I think it is not only for a cultural problem that catalan poeple want to be independent. For me, for it is also for an economic problem.

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

Catalonia is a part of spain. But for me, its will of independence is understandable because i think that Catalonia have potential to became a great and powerful state

---------- Post added at 18:26 ---------- Previous post was at 18:20 ----------

But ,Ii think however that in this crisis context , it is not a good idea to demand his independence.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Vaniablue

[oxmox 73]

This is maybe an interesting map, which shows active seperatist movements in Europe. Of course the intensitiy of the areas who wish/support/quarrel varies a lot.

Active separatist movements in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe#mediaviewer/File:Active_separatist_movements_in_the_European_Union.png

Edited October 16, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

This is maybe an interesting map, which shows active seperatist movements in Europe. Of course the intensitiy of the areas who wish/support/quarrel varies a lot.

Yeah that's the main issue. For instance in Catalonia more than 80% of the population and more than 99% of the towns want to vote their future. And it's calculated that the support for the independence is higher than 56%, way more than almost anywhere else in Europe.

[oxmox 73]

Yeah that's the main issue. For instance in Catalonia more than 80% of the population and more than 99% of the towns want to vote their future. And it's calculated that the support for the independence is higher than 56%, way more than almost anywhere else in Europe.

A study says, 5 years ago around 17% would vote for an independent Catalonia, what is the reason for a sudden increase ?

Another example from wiki:

"In 2007, a poll indicated that, when asked about the relationship between Catalonia and Spain, 59.5% of respondents thought that Catalonia should be an autonomous community within Spain (the current situation), 17.5% considered that Catalonia should be a state within a federal state and only 13.5% believed that Catalonia should be an independent state separate from Spain."

Edited October 16, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

A study says, 5 years ago around 17% would vote for an independent Catalonia, what is the reason for a sudden increase ?

The reason is the attitude of the Spanish Gov. promoting laws to make Catalan students to become more

"Spanish", the derogation of laws adopted in the Catalan Parliament, insults, and long etc.

Mainly all began when the actual right-wing Spanish Gov. used the Constitutional Court ( highly manipulated politically ) to derogate parts of the Catalan Constitution ( Estatut de Catalunya ) that had been approved by both the Catalan and the Spanish parliaments.

Also the movement has seen a huge rise with the Spanish Gov. obsession to forbid all tries to vote / decide.

All that added to the Spanish Gov. unfair use of Catalan taxpayers' money ( some even call robbery, or in Harvard parasitism ), basically Catalans are the 16% of Spain's population, contribute with the 18% of Spain's GDP and receive less than 10% of the investors.

Which basically nowadays means that the Catalan Gov. is unable to pay for basic healthcare, when technically according to its income should enough money to pay all the expenses and more to spare.

Even the most important foreign medias have made a lot of articles asking Spanish Gov to let Catalans vote:

( NY Times, Editorial ) First the Scots, Now the Catalans

( The Guardian, Editorial ) The Guardian view on Catalonian independence: heading for a crash

( LA Times ) Can Spain and Catalonia's marriage be saved? Let the Catalans vote

( Bloomberg, Editorial ) First Scotland, Now Spain

( Harvard Politics ) Catalonia in Contention

Polls from this year:

( The Independent ) Poll finds that 60% of Catalans want independence

The poll found that 59.7% were in favour of the region becoming a “new state in Europe†- up from 55% in November.

The report highlighted this with 74% of those surveyed feeling that “Spanish Authorities do not treat Catalans in a satisfactory way.â€

[...]

The CEO survey also found that 87.3% of the interviewees would accept the result of a self-determination referendum while 9.3% would not.

“On top of this 74% of Catalans believe that the best way to decide on Catalonia's political future and its relationship with Spain is through a referendum, while 21.7% think the opposite.†The survey concluded.

If you prefer the "Eastern" side of the news:

( RT ) Up to 60% of Catalonians want independence – poll

Edited October 16, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

I gues there are economical reasons aswell since Spain is in a huge crisis since years and it is not just about some "law" changes.

Catalans contribute with the 18% of Spain's GDP

Dont they have one of the strongest Tourism areas i.e. Costa Brava is one of the oldest Tourism areas in Spain, if they include the Balearic Islands or not. Tourism in general is important to the overal economic in Spain, isnt it. I would not wonder if the high GDP is comming from Tourism.

"if you prefer the "Eastern" side..." .. in general I prefer reputeable and varying sources which are verifiable and not cardinal directions. :p

Edited October 16, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

I gues there are economical reasons aswell since Spain is in a huge crisis since years and it is not just about some "law" changes.

That would not explain the massive demonstrations before the crisis. And the economical deviation has always existed.

Dont they have one of the strongest Tourism areas i.e. Costa Brava is one of the oldest Tourism areas in Spain, if they include the Balearic Islands or not. Tourism in general is important to the overal economic in Spain, isnt it.

The main strength of Catalonia's economy is being one of Europe's four motors, most industrialized regions ( with Lombardia, Rhône-Alpes and Baden-Wurttemberg ):

Four motors of Europe.

But yeah, tourism is quite an important part of their economy too.

Basically would be like a top tier industrial economy inside a mainly third-world agrarian country. Obviously that is due to their differential industrious culture.

And the Balearic islands although having Catalan culture ( language and so on ), they are a distinct region. The Catalan influence is product of the Catalan invasion and occupation of the island during the middle ages.

In fact the roots of the problem are due to their distinct cultural traditions, Catalonia was the flagship of the "democratic" Crown of Aragon ( democratic using middle age standards ) and the absolutist Castile Kingdom.

In 1716 the Castile culture and laws were imposed in Catalonia after a long international war ( removing the borders, etc. ). But somehow Catalans have kept their language, civil law, festivities etc. Even if they were banned for long periods, the last one during the Franco's Dictatorship ( 1939-1975 ).

Edited October 16, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

That would not explain the massive demonstrations before the crisis. And the economical deviation has always existed.

The main strength of Catalonia's economy is being one of Europe's four motors, most industrialized regions ( with Lombardia, Rhône-Alpes and Baden-Wurttemberg ):

Four motors of Europe.

But yeah, tourism is quite an important part of their economy too.

Well, only ~13% did support the independence in 2007 thats exactly when the crisis did start. Mmmh I dont think so there were massive demonstrations like we have seen in the last months at least.

Checked it, Tourism is the major part of the catalonian economic:

"This figure shows the strength of the Catalan tourism sector, which represents 12% of Catalonia’s GDP "

http://www.catalannewsagency.com/business/item/international-tourist-industry-meets-in-catalonia

I dont want to judge here about spanish people, wish them good luck with their movement and hopefully this isnt just a new trendy movement due to economic issues alone. Living mostly from Tourism is a risky future but the area was always strong in tourism.

Edited October 17, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

I dont want to judge here about spanish people, wish them good luck with their movement and hopefully this isnt just a new trendy movement due to economic issues alone. Living mostly from Tourism is a risky future.

Living mostly from tourism? Again we are talking about one of the four industrial powers of Europe. :j:

Check the BBC Profile.

Holiday-makers also flock to the Mediterranean beaches of the Costa Brava and Costa Daurada/Dorada, and the Pyrenees are popular with hikers, making tourism an important part of Catalonia's economy.

But it is manufacturing - traditionally textiles, but more recently overtaken in importance by the chemical industry, food-processing, metalworking - that make the region Spain's economic powerhouse, along with a growing service sector.

Also interesting:

( The Economist ) Catalonia’s independence movement

Although Catalonia had moments of separatist enthusiasm during Spain's troubled early 20th century

The two motors of the new wave of separatism are Spain's economic woes and a 2010 Constitutional Court decision to strike out part of a renewed charter of self-government that had been approved at referendum.

Edited October 17, 2014 by MistyRonin

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Catalonia holds non-binding vote on independence

( NY Times ) Catalans Vote in Straw Poll on Independence From Spain

( RIA Novosti ) Polls Close in Catalonia as Almost 2 Mln Vote in Informal Independence Referendum

( Al Jazeera ) Voting ends for Catalonia symbolic secession

A good interesting document on the subject:

WHAT’S GOING ON IN CATALONIA?

[x3kj 1247]

i dont think politics will allow them to be independant...

[mistyronin 1181]

( Bloomberg, editorial ) Catalonia's Vote Was a Success. Now Negotiate.

( The Guardian, editorial ) The Guardian view on Spain’s mishandling of the referendum movement in Catalonia

[mistyronin 1181]

Video report on the actual status of the "Catalan question", explained by different euro-parliamentarians:

[oxmox 73]

Russian meddling machine sets sights on Catalonia

The global network that acted in favor of Donald Trump and Brexit turns attention to Spain

After undercover campaigns in favor of Brexit and the leader of the French right-wing party National Front, Marine Le Pen, as well as the far-right in Germany, the Kremlin is using the Catalan crisis as a way to deepen divisions within Europe and consolidate its international influence. It appears in the form of websites that publish hoax stories, the activity of activists such as WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange and a legion of bots – millions of automated social media accounts that can turn lies into trending topics.

 

In a week in which the Spanish judiciary and the government disarmed the logistics of the illegal referendum,

the most influential tweet on the issue, according to media monitor NewsWhip, was published by Assange on September 15 at 6.46pm.

 

Quote

 

I ask everyone to support Catalonia's right to self-determination. Spain cannot be permitted to normalize repressive acts to stop the vote.

— Julian Assange ? (@JulianAssange) September 15, 2017

 

 

 

 

ElPais Report

 

 

 

 

[spooky lynx 73]

Change the word 'Russian' on 'Jewish' and you'll see typical European analytics of XIX and early XX centuries. I wonder when the Dreyfus affair 2.0 will appear.

As for recent rallies in Catalonia, I don't think any real attempt secession will ever happen.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Russia is probably supporting Catalonia independance, i'd be surprised they'd support Kurdistan's one.

[oxmox 73]

.

[spooky lynx 73]

On 02.10.2017 at 7:12 PM, ProfTournesol said:

Russia is probably supporting Catalonia independance, i'd be surprised they'd support Kurdistan's one.

What's the point for Russia to support Catalonia's independence? Especially when Spain has more influence in PIGS than in EU.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, go on breaking EU unity, on the Brexit path.

[kerozen 187]

oh the usual Russia is to blame for everything narrative...

 

Ur using that shit so much that soon people will just stop reading shit like that and when it truly happens people won't give a shit 

[ProfTournesol 956]

What makes me 'stop reading' is the extensive use of 'shit' in the same sentence, mate.

[spooky lynx 73]

36 minutes ago, ProfTournesol said:

Well, go on breaking EU unity, on the Brexit path.

Oh sorry, I forgot that there's a Jewish-masonRussian plot against honest EU... We are the only responsible for all the problems in every EU corner.

And to be serious we do not have any interest in EU dissolve, simply because trading with EU is much more convenient and simple than with 20+ different countries each with own laws, customs, bank system, industry standards etc.

BTW one of my school classmates lives in Barselona (he moved to Spain in 2003), the only thing he says about all this is that local authorities have much more interests in secession than average citizens. And it's more about propaganda going from local govt than real massive will of having own state.

[R0adki11 3949]

Can i remind everyone that we do have forum rules, failure to abide by them will result in infractions and potentially time away from the forum.

[djotacon 190]

I would take this thread seriously if I did not know the background of the creator of it.

 

I have been reading your erroneous information about my country for a long time and I do not take any of its affirmations seriously. He does not know what he is talking about or he invents his affirmations, he has spent a lot of time in the forum making my country pass by a banana republic and this post is nothing more than another petty and mean attempt to insult my country.

 

Another flame with bait.

 

I have better things to do that reading this nonsense.

 

"you are free to eat"...

 

 

[Rydygier 1317]

Quote

Why shouldn't that people be allowed to vote to decide their future?

 

I didn't know much about the situation in Spain, so was kinda caught by surprise by these news, don't really know thus do not understand, why all this is happening, why people act like that. But I admit, quoted question bother me, because the answer isn't that simple. From the one side, people having right to determine own life and fate is the most basic idea of democracy. From the second side - they aren't sole isles, but live as part of society and by such choice they affect not only their lifes and fate, consequences will spread and affect also those, who don't support this. Democracy is about the will of the majority. So depends, majority of who? Does majority of Spanish people indeed support such idea? Or this is about loud minority of Catalonians, that want to be a separate majority on their own. Should they be? Where's the boundry between just claims and destroying the state/harming society? When government should defend the unity and when respect the will of some? As for the third - weakness of democracy is, people en masse often choose poorly. My guess is, consequences of dividing a country in such situation are unlikely to be positive for any of the potentially affected. As for such kind of separatisits ideas, I generally suspect, they're not wise in long term, and are weakining, because the value of the state lies in the synergy, it provides. Catalonia is strong? Well, it may be no longer the case after the separation.