Infantry Combat and the AI

[Masharra 10]

Why would it make you dubious? Guard waypoints are very powerful, you only need to set one guard waypoint on a group to have them active and available for the whole mission, you do need at least 2 opposing groups to clash initially to set it all off.. Sometimes I'll have up to 20-30 groups for each side covering a whole map all with only guard waypoints and let Arma create it's own mission, best to group 8 ai to helo and apc's and make the vehicle the group leader.

Still waiting for the .pbo. I dont doubt the power of guard waypoints. I doubt its ability to do all of what you said without the need of anything external.

note

I've seen AI helo pilots doing some awesome low level flying and often observed them doing insertions under fire and firing on infantry and armour while troops are unloading, cool stuff, no mods or scripts just simple editor with guard wp's for all groups, I don't believe I've ever seen that in A2? At least not as smooth as these guys were doing it and especially under fire.

In my opinion the A3 AI seem vastly improved in a lot of areas, should note that I'm using the dev build.

If it does then I will imitate as its great and I will get a bit more respect for arma 3. If not then oh well.

[sbua16 19]

ArmA 3 Infantry combat AI is terrible IMO. The franchise has had terrible AI since 2001 and I doubt it's going to change and mods only make it passable at best. Individual and higher AI infantry tactics don't make sense 8 out of 10 times, and when they do it's basically by accident, and it's something you've witnessed off-hand on some random mission you played last week.

It's been, what, 12 years since we started this journey to ArmA3, and where have we got to? AI that barely knows how to operate in built up environments ("what the hell is this 'building' you can use them as cover, no way"); In open fields, AI that basically feel the same as it does in OFP. Where's the tactical cohesion between squads.. hell, where's the tactical cohesion between individual members of a squad. I'm sure something is happening behind the scenes, but to be frank, it looks like people are just wandering all over the place doing their own thing. 12 years ago, I would've at least hoped for AI to be able to use buildings in 2013, but no.. the only thing we can be amazed about currently is the fact that AI lean around walls correctly.. sometimes.

There's no tactical cohesion, squads don't talk to each other. People run around seemingly randomly due to the fact that they're governed by a loose set of rules that don't really lend well to a realistic military scenario. I know it won't get changed because we're in the Beta now, and well.. the best we can hope for is a couple more of those moments where we say "oh.. the AI actually worked well together for a moment there" and that's it, because it really does need a overhaul... and don't even get me started on the archaic way you control these morons. It wasn't accessible in 2001, and it still isn't accessible in 2013.

[katipo66 94]

Still waiting for the .pbo

here you go.. zipped mission

Quickly setup at work so no love in this and probably could be done better, its not guaranteed you will be inserted close to the action as the nature of the guard waypoint leaves it entirely up to group leader, but when/if he does you will see he has no problem doing this under fire, you might also witness what i consider some fancy flying at times.

this using dev build..

[sbua16 19]

here you go.. zipped mission

Quickly setup at work so no love in this and probably could be done better, its not guaranteed you will be inserted close to the action as the nature of the guard waypoint leaves it entirely up to group leader, but when/if he does you will see he has no problem doing this under fire, you might also witness what i consider some fancy flying at times.

this using dev build..

Just had a quick go with this...

..

well, after being dropped off and picked up multiple times for no real reason kilometres away from the enemy, we were finally dropped off in some dead ground relatively nearby. "Awesome.. maybe this might be some cool emergent behaviour from the AI I've not witnessed before". But no, the the group leader decided we'd better get back in.. we then flew out to sea with a barrage of "2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Dismount" followed by continued "Negative". After a full 3 minutes of this, we were finally dropped off again, though once again kilometres away from anything. The group leader then decided we'd better mount up.. and by 'We' I mean everyone accept me and one other AI, who they promptly left stranded on the ridge of some hill.

I'm using the dev build...

This is what I mean with my previous post. Everything's so damn random, and not in a good way. Most of the time ArmA AI just doesn't make sense, it's like a fish out of water attempting to flounder towards.. something. IDK, maybe it's just me putting my expectations too high with every new iteration. That maybe one we can get AI that can actually do something that consistently makes sense, something that makes me think "Wow.. I really feel like I'm part of an attack here, this firefight is great" rather than "What the fuck are you doing?", "WHY AREN'T YOU MOVING??!", "why is that guy - by himself - 200 metres over there?" "Oh fuck, the whole squad is stuck again because some dude's get himself stuck on a path loop, better do some euthanasia", "These interiors are pretty cool.. why are they so underused, the points inside the buildings don't even correspond to a window frame most of the time" etc.

[Masharra 10]

Many thanks. It took me about 10+ minutes of searching to realise you didnt have a guarded by trigger.

Firstly Let me say this-- If there is one thing I hated about arma 2 ai is how they "value" their lives. Case in point I spent about 3-4hrs trying to figure out how to make my unarmed soldier ignore gunfire (this disableAI "fsm") and do exactly what I wanted him to do. Otherwise the second he saw he fled into the woods. It is also a pita with heli insertions underfire.

Now- Fancy as heck flying, the insertions were beautiful, makes any air assaut vet have a tear in his eye.

Unfortunately thats about it.

Ive done the mission 5 times. I shall recap

1. Me confused, how is he doing this where is his trigger?/ enroute to ao he orders us to disembark twice and the whole squad tells him to f off/ fly over hmg vehicle and about 5 guys on a hill top./ orders air assault 10m away from them/ disembark from chopper HMG destroys squad./ heli flies away. restart

2. wait 10 seconds order to board chopper /enroute to ao he orders us to disembark twice and the whole squad tells him to f off/ fly over hmg vehicle and about 5 guys on a hill top./ orders air assault 10m away from them/ disembark from chopper HMG destroys most of squad./I run away whilst tossing grenades and finally die*hmg chases me down*/ heli flies away. restart

3.enroute to ao he orders us to disembark twice and he stops and lets us dismount/ Tells us to board some vehicle that I know nothing of/ Tells us to get back in chopper/ he lines up and destroys hmg vehicle/ fly over about 5 guys on a hill top./orders air assault on top of them/ we disembark and get slaughtered one by one / restart

4.see 3

5. Best one IMO wait 10 seconds order to board chopper /enroute to ao he orders us to disembark twice and the whole squad tells him to f off/ fly over hmg vehicle and about 5 guys on a hill top./ orders air assault 10m away from them/ opposing hill lights up and kills the pilot/ disembark from chopper /chopper runs us all over *we ok though*/ As we recover and stand up HMG destroys most of squad./I run away toward helicopter tryin to get in pilot seat/hmg chases me down and tells me I dont know how to fly/

--

Overall I wouldnt say better, I would say different. The chopper still flew inside small arms range for no reason what so ever, the gunner didnt fire once(barring the missile time), ignored enemy fire, and ordered disembarkation in a tactically unsound area (to say the least).

Pro's The pilot wasnt sniped with ak from long range. He could fly.

Con's - I felt as if I was the only one who feared for his life. He made crap decisions :P

I dont know. It appears the roles have switched really. Before you had to edit unit to make it land under fire and now you will have to edit it to make it not land under fire. Does it work the same with the littlebird? I cant see it standing 1/6th the gunfire. hmm lets test that..

Thanks btw I never thought to use guard waypoint like that.

--

I agree with your edit. We can hope for some improvements in ai.

[katipo66 94]

Yeah ive tried it a few times and it's not as smooth as I have seen it numerous times before, also I'm usually playing infantry so see these things from that perspective, dunno.. I have been mostly playing on Wamako which is a lot larger with more smoothed out flatter terrain which may help their cause? Either way I'm happy with the AI so far, maybe because I'm happy enough playing at their level rather than expecting them to play at mine.

One thing I've also noticed is there driving? Yes it's still bad lol, but heaps better, more specifically in reference to them passing foot mobiles, they seem a lot more confident.

I should probably mention that I've finally upgraded to a far superior system to my old one... Probably the extra horsepower is letting me see what i've been missing out on :)

Edited July 9, 2013 by Katipo66

[sbua16 19]

maybe because I'm happy enough playing at their level rather than expecting them to play at mine.

Personally, I don't care about reaction times, accuracy etc. It's actual infantry tactics. With ArmA 2, and a mix of multiple AI mods bastardised together, I can get the game to actually breath some life in the AI. They share information, advance realistically, use smoke, pick up ammo, use buildings as cover, and work together as a unit. It's not perfect, but if I was a little less nit picky I'd be totally immersed in these little battlefields I've created. With ArmA 3 currently it's a massive step backwards, it's nothing to do with matching the AI skill to my own, that's not what it's about for me.. it's about the closest thing we have to military sim immersing us in a simulation of military ops. With the current AI the immersion just isn't there.

[katipo66 94]

Personally, I don't care about reaction times, accuracy etc. It's actual infantry tactics. With ArmA 2, and a mix of multiple AI mods bastardised together, I can get the game to actually breath some life in the AI. They share information, advance realistically, use smoke, pick up ammo, use buildings as cover, and work together as a unit. It's not perfect, but if I was a little less nit picky I'd be totally immersed in these little battlefields I've created. With ArmA 3 currently it's a massive step backwards, it's nothing to do with matching the AI skill to my own, that's not what it's about for me.. it's about the closest thing we have to military sim immersing us in a simulation of military ops. With the current AI the immersion just isn't there.

I guess we will have to wait and see if there might be anymore functionality added that might similar to HAC which btw plays no problem in A3.

[stealth2668 12]

here you go.. zipped mission

Quickly setup at work so no love in this and probably could be done better, its not guaranteed you will be inserted close to the action as the nature of the guard waypoint leaves it entirely up to group leader, but when/if he does you will see he has no problem doing this under fire, you might also witness what i consider some fancy flying at times.

this using dev build..

Where do we put the .sqm file to play this. Noob here, need hand holding.

[Masharra 10]

Where do we put the .sqm file to play this. Noob here, need hand holding.

Place the folder not the .sqm

C:\Users\*username*\Documents\Arma 3 - Other Profiles\*profilename*\missions

In the end it will look like this

C:\Users\*username*\Documents\Arma 3 - Other Profiles\*profilename*\missions\HELO_INSERTION_GUARD_WP.Stratis

With the .sqm inside the folder

Load mission in editor then hit preview.

[stealth2668 12]

cool thanks. I tried it out and it seems like it does actually work a little. We got in the chopper, flew a few KM landed, killed a squad and got back in the chopper. 3 squad mates got left behind and we were flying back to our starting point really slowly so I quit before we got there.

---------- Post added at 11:49 ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 ----------

Is there a way to open the file in the editor to see what they did? I tried but the file doesn't show up when I try to load a file.

[MadocComadrin 12]

I tried out the mission too, and I found that if you lay down a few invisible helipads in possible LZs, dropping off troops is much smoother.

[metalcraze 290]

Yeah ive tried it a few times and it's not as smooth as I have seen it numerous times before, also I'm usually playing infantry so see these things from that perspective, dunno.. I have been mostly playing on Wamako which is a lot larger with more smoothed out flatter terrain which may help their cause? Either way I'm happy with the AI so far, maybe because I'm happy enough playing at their level rather than expecting them to play at mine.

One thing I've also noticed is there driving? Yes it's still bad lol, but heaps better, more specifically in reference to them passing foot mobiles, they seem a lot more confident.

I should probably mention that I've finally upgraded to a far superior system to my old one... Probably the extra horsepower is letting me see what i've been missing out on :)

AI in ArmA3 is no different from ArmA2 level except that they ignore cover more when moving making it inferior to A2 in urban areas.

Edited July 13, 2013 by metalcraze

[royaltyinexile 175]

AI in ArmA3 is no different from ArmA2 level except that they ignore cover more when moving making it inferior to A2 in urban areas.

No, please, do go on: continue to beat that dead horse. :D

Best,

RiE

[metalcraze 290]

Well I've obviously missed that post. Sorry for that.

But AI seems to be rushing to the waypoint still nonetheless. When I play ArmA2 with 1.63 beta after shots died down AI would stay in one place for a while making sure it's clear even with a waypoint. Which often saves its life since enemies may reappear again - and a moving AI is always at a disadvantage to a static and ready to fire one.

In ArmA3 they seem to spend just 5 seconds tops until the leader announces "clear" and they move on obviously ignoring cover unlike what they would do in Danger mode. Infantry showcase is a great example of this where unless you will break formation and go alone anticipating and killing half the enemies yourself chances are - all your squad will get killed before it even reaches the village.

[Polygon 11]

Exactly, metalcraze.

It's a bad design decision to showcase terrible rushing AI in the Infantry mission. No real tactics involved whatsoever. The player is outnumbered completely. Does BIS forgot what logical design means? "But it's a showcase!" is no excuse. Any mission in this sandbox super-shooter should be tolerable for a thinking player.

Infantry's showcase objective is convince potential Wasteland players that AI is unnecessary and they should continue PvP'ing in their favorite "official" game mode.