What is fundamentally wrong with the underwater combat?

[Tonci87 163]

Pictures describe it better than words could

two diver squads placed 200 meters from each other with a waypoint on the opposite squad

(Screenshot from Empire Total War, Darth Mod Empire 8.0 Platinum)

Steps to make it better:

Step 1:

Make this:

The default idle animation/stance

Nobody would stay upright during such a shootout, you would try to keep low and make yourself a target as small as possible.

And no diver would go upright everytime he stops, that is just silly.

You should also teach the AI to get just above ground/behind cover during a fight

Step 2:

Allow players and AI to shoot while moving (without using sights)

And I guess that is where the problems come from. I believe that the diving AI can´t handle underwater cover positions and therefore we are stuck with this extremely static underwater combat that gets boring very fast and stands in a very stark contrast to the excellent infantry movements we have on land.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=2378

Further ideas

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?149102-Feedback-amp-Suggestions-Diving-and-underwater-combat

Edited June 14, 2013 by Tonci87

[Killbert 0]

I don't think in real life it would be possible to stay in that stance you are showing. The upright position while stationary is what happens naturally I believe. You would sink in to the bottom, unless you actively maintain your depth. I haven't ever dived with equipment, but I think the way the vest floats you and weights on your hips keep you under, you would go to upright position.

[bad benson 1733]

i agree on most of these points but i have to say that it seems to me that underwater combat is just a little bonus to the underwater feature itself right now. i'm afraid it's not really a focus of the game.

i don't even find the animation stuff that bad. i think what is missing is more cover underwater. right now it is like fighting in slow motion on an open field with a lot of fog.

and something only partly related that bugs me a little is how bullets fired from outside stop exactly at the water surface. they should go in at least a little bit and cause reduced damage in my opinion. when i first saw the underwater ammo in action and the bullet trail effect used for it, i was hoping for those hollywood moments where the ninja-diver-infiltrator jumps back into the water after the mission is done and the alarm went off and there are all these bullets shooting through the water around him.

[Tonci87 163]

I don't think in real life it would be possible to stay in that stance you are showing. The upright position while stationary is what happens naturally I believe. You would sink in to the bottom, unless you actively maintain your depth. I haven't ever dived with equipment, but I think the way the vest floats you and weights on your hips keep you under, you would go to upright position.

Don´t worry you are not entirely wrong. It depends on the equipment you use to dive, but with the stuff the Arma 3 divers have you would be very able to maintain your depth.

The diving is a new and quite exciting addition to the Arma series, I feel it will be abandoned by the players if it stays like it is now.

[Inimical_rize 1]

Your lungs are situated high abouve your weist, heigher than most people think, your legs are roughly heavy as or heavier than your torso, with a deep filled lung your upoer half will float whilst the legs fall, so the idle animation is ok, to be honest speaking to sme guys i know, under water combat is generally avoided, if it is initiated it's usually super quick due to oxysgen beng used in vast qantaties. If you're compramised under water by another diver, it's usually a chase and a knife across the neck or oxygen tubes.

I've been informed that there are a few different versions of re-breather:

Boyant

Neutral

Profile

Sme can have various weights attached to maintain a specific depth and low profile how ever is almost non moveable.

I'm not a diver, I'm a land crature and I like it that way.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Inimcal_
Text addition.

[Fuse 1]

Don´t worry you are not entirely wrong. It depends on the equipment you use to dive, but with the stuff the Arma 3 divers have you would be very able to maintain your depth.

The diving is a new and quite exciting addition to the Arma series, I feel it will be abandoned by the players if it stays like it is now.

Do you know the name of the type of gear they use? I'm curious how it works. Maintaining depth is one thing, but floating horizontally when your lungs and vest are full of air does seem unnatural. Are weights placed in the BCD it self, kind of like those weighted training vests?

Not trying to dispute your claim. I'm just curious. :)

[lev 21]

I'd support #2 as long as appropriate accuracy penalties are applied to aiming while moving. I'd imagine shooting while swimming will be incredibly inaccurate.

Underwater move speeds should probably also be implemented for this as well. There will need to be a difference between inching around a rock to shoot at someone and swimming rapidly while randomly spraying for covering fire. Slower underwater move speeds should translate to more accuracy.

For #1, I have no experience with diving what-so-ever so I don't know what a natural resting position underwater is like.

[[evo] dan 79]

Do you know the name of the type of gear they use? I'm curious how it works. Maintaining depth is one thing, but floating horizontally when your lungs and vest are full of air does seem unnatural. Are weights placed in the BCD it self, kind of like those weighted training vests?

Not trying to dispute your claim. I'm just curious. :)

I am a trained BSAC sports diver, but I don't dive with a closed circuit setup like they do in arma (I use the normal setup). I can tell you that most (sensible) people don't put weights in their BCD, they have a weightbelt or harness so that they are able to ditch weights quickly if needed for an emergency situation. Floating horizontally is relatively easy, however staying at a constant depth whilst doing so isn't. It is prefered to be horizontal whilst diving in order to balance the load of bubbles building up in your blood stream, as well as being the position for movement (saves you tiring out changing constantly) and also helps to not kick the bottom up as it can create clouds underwater. As part of the various levels of training you have to do various things such as hover for so long within a specific depth range (no more than +-1m from start point). Doing tasks is often done horizontally such as a DSMB launch (basically its a big orange thing that floats to the surface so people know where you are).

[Tonci87 163]

Dan;2414250']I am a trained BSAC sports diver' date=' but I don't dive with a closed circuit setup like they do in arma (I use the normal setup). I can tell you that most (sensible) people don't put weights in their BCD, they have a weightbelt or harness so that they are able to ditch weights quickly if needed for an emergency situation. Floating horizontally is relatively easy, however staying at a constant depth whilst doing so isn't. It is prefered to be horizontal whilst diving in order to balance the load of bubbles building up in your blood stream, as well as being the position for movement (saves you tiring out changing constantly) and also helps to not kick the bottom up as it can create clouds underwater. As part of the various levels of training you have to do various things such as hover for so long within a specific depth range (no more than +-1m from start point). Doing tasks is often done horizontally such as a DSMB launch (basically its a big orange thing that floats to the surface so people know where you are).[/quote']

^what he said^^

[Fuse 1]

Thanks. I was certified years ago but I've forgotten most of my dive training. I just remembered always floating vertically unless I was close to coral/silt, but I only did maybe 20 dives.

I thought Tonci was saying there was something special about their gear that helped the weight distribution, but now I see I just misread it.

[daveallen10 35]

Empire is awesome don't dis it. :)

But I agree with OP

[dmarkwick 261]

I don't think there is a precedent for underwater combat :)

In your first image, where they're all facing off against each other, would I be right in thinking that that's how you placed them? In this case it would already be a poor test becasue that situation wouldn't occur. For a more meaningful outcome they should approach each other from a distance beyond their view distance.

[Tonci87 163]

I don't think there is a precedent for underwater combat :)

In your first image, where they're all facing off against each other, would I be right in thinking that that's how you placed them? In this case it would already be a poor test becasue that situation wouldn't occur. For a more meaningful outcome they should approach each other from a distance beyond their view distance.

No, I just placed two diver squads some 200 meters away from each other and gave them a waypoint towards the other team. Then I captured it with the splendidCam. This is just what happened :)

I should add that to the first post...

[sproyd 2]

Dan;2414250']I am a trained BSAC sports diver' date=' but I don't dive with a closed circuit setup like they do in arma (I use the normal setup). I can tell you that most (sensible) people don't put weights in their BCD, they have a weightbelt or harness so that they are able to ditch weights quickly if needed for an emergency situation. Floating horizontally is relatively easy, however staying at a constant depth whilst doing so isn't. It is prefered to be horizontal whilst diving in order to balance the load of bubbles building up in your blood stream, as well as being the position for movement (saves you tiring out changing constantly) and also helps to not kick the bottom up as it can create clouds underwater. As part of the various levels of training you have to do various things such as hover for so long within a specific depth range (no more than +-1m from start point). Doing tasks is often done horizontally such as a DSMB launch (basically its a big orange thing that floats to the surface so people know where you are).[/quote']

Mostly this...

Dan;2414250'] Floating horizontally is relatively easy' date=' however staying at a constant depth whilst doing so isn't. [/quote']

Especially this...

although, with a closed circuit rebreather system I believe you are going to be fairly buoyancy neutral when breathing - and instead maintain neutral buoyancy predominantly through your BCD

However

Dan;2414250'] It is prefered to be horizontal whilst diving in order to balance the load of bubbles building up in your blood stream

I've never heard of this!!! Nitrogen absorbs into your tissues and only bubbles into your blood stream if you surface (reduce pressure) too quickly in which case you get DCS.

I agree with the overall tone of this thread - typically you would not switch to an upright position unless required and no just because you stop kicking doesn't mean you are going to drift into an upright position... the number of times I have taken a sharp breath full of air and gone into this position in order to avoid flattening a reef!!!

[[evo] dan 79]

I've never heard of this!!! Nitrogen absorbs into your tissues and only bubbles into your blood stream if you surface (reduce pressure) too quickly in which case you get DCS.

Yeah, my bad, its so that nitrogen leaves your tissues at an equal rate rather than the blood stream. (BSAC Sports diver training teaches you this before you go on a deco dive)

[PN11A 2]

Didn't myth busters do a shooting in water test and the high velocity rifle rounds broke before they went into the water?

[sproyd 2]

Dan;2414985']Yeah' date=' my bad, its so that nitrogen leaves your tissues at an equal rate rather than the blood stream. (BSAC Sports diver training teaches you this before you go on a deco dive)[/quote']

hm interesting but don't you usually ascend vertically in an upright position?

[KingChubbles 1]

Didn't myth busters do a shooting in water test and the high velocity rifle rounds broke before they went into the water?

The rifles being used are specially made for underwater combat.

[progamer 14]

The rifles being used are specially made for underwater combat.

As prototype underwater rifles and likely classified versions already used exist in real life, they have special made bullets and special made guns which made it impracticle if you are trying to produce mass quantities of. Only high level officers and few highly trained individuals would ever us ether in real life.

I Remeber reading that guns like these have bullets with "fin" groves or something on them and loose there speed really fast due to no propulsion system.

[Tonci87 163]

Underwater guns use supercavitating bullets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercavitation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APS_amphibious_rifle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPP-1_underwater_pistol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-DT_amphibious_rifle

I would be really happy if we could shoot while moving underwater.

But I think that this would really put a spotlight on the insufficient diving AI.

If the players were able to shoot while moving, then they would outmaneuver the AI in every firefight since the AI doesn´t seem to have/recognize underwater cover positions.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Tonci87

[[evo] dan 79]

hm interesting but don't you usually ascend vertically in an upright position?

nope, horizontal for ascent, and BSAC training pretty much means that you stay horizontal for the whole dive. I guess your a PADI diver then?

[sproyd 2]

Dan;2415478']nope' date=' horizontal for ascent, and BSAC training pretty much means that you stay horizontal for the whole dive. I guess your a PADI diver then?[/quote']

si senor

[Fuse 1]

Dan;2415478']nope' date=' horizontal for ascent, and BSAC training pretty much means that you stay horizontal for the whole dive. I guess your a PADI diver then?[/quote']

I was PADI certified, too. I had never heard about the nitrogen deal and I think I was always vertical when I surfaced.

Then again, my instructor took us to a place that had killed a couple of divers with bad air two years prior, so I lost a lot of confidence in the whole course.

[dm 9]

Pictures describe it better than words could

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j346/tonci87/UC1_zpsbaf27fb5.jpg

two diver squads placed 200 meters from each other with a waypoint on the opposite squad

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j346/tonci87/UC2_zps954f6563.jpg

(Screenshot from Empire Total War, Darth Mod Empire 8.0 Platinum)

I think it also does not help that the supercavitating ammo for SDAR the is actually deleted after ~30m of flight... (Seriously, attach a camera to it, and see it go poof)

[Messiah 2]

Dan;2415478']I guess your a PADI diver then?

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