Snipers need extra Realism tweaks

[daveallen10 35]

Just keep in mind, Superman0023, that we're talking about the anti-materiel rifles here -- whereas if you're talking about ".308"/7.62 x 51 mm weapons, the EBR is such a weapon and one which you could also throw the Sniper Optical Sight onto. (The MXM was previously a 7.62 x 45 mm rifle, as was the EBR, until the MXM was "down-calibered".)

To be honest I think that any gun which has a 12x scope or greater should be affected by these changes, just not as much as a bulky anti-material rifle.

[spookygnu 563]

Additional recoil... yes! Most long ranger weapon systems uses .308 caliber and up; But, to say near imposible to engage accuratly while crouched or standing is quite a reach. one of the most accurate and stable firing positions is sitting Indian style (fyi). In my opinion I think Battlefields 3 did it very accurately by allowing bi-pods to be deployed just about everywhere (ex. rocks, hoods of vehicles, low hanging tree branches when standing, highway dividers, window ledges, ect.)

I think the thought of having bi-pods deploy-able is a great idea. I used them in A2 OA with the ACE Mod and they worked a treat and added to the sniper experience in a "Sim". Also not only should the bi-pods be used but like Superman0023 said about B3, all environment assets should be able to help us have a resting point for every weapon. (without going of topic), Snipers would use anything around them to get a good steady aim. As do regular units with regular rifles.

Also, with longer distances, is it me, or am I not able to see my bullet flight path, maybe having a vapour trail where you can only see it in during certain weather conditions. like this

Edited June 10, 2013 by SpookyGnu

[Inimical_rize 1]

I'm a sniper RL, I can fire my L115a3 from the prone with no bipod just rested on the natural ground (rarely do this because it can alter the weapons ballistics), or beanbag, or my arm or daysack(backpack) and still have a standard 900mtr first round hit. At 100mtrs i can group x5 8.59mm holes in a 11-13mm group from supporting the weapon with a hand and no bipod, and that is poor to some standards of peoples shooting here.

I would like to see the sniping in game more realistic and less point and click, this would clear up the 18 snipers to 1 assault ratio we all are enduring now since it was released. You guys can't help but admit as soon as that sniper package was release close quarter battles stopped almost instantaneously!

The way this could be achieved is by adding the very elements that making a sniper a sniper,...

Elevation, Deflection, coSign

Elevation.

1. Ballistics, and ballistic data. As a sniper you are issued your weapon, "there are many like the one you have but this one is yours" and it's different to your mates!

Every rifle will have a different muzzle velocity, for instance my weapon has a Mpv of 870, this is the upper scale of Mpv you can find in the L115a3, A friends rifle has a Mpv of 830, that Mpv is low, almost low enough to take the weapon from a sniper rifle to a sharp shooter rifle. (the difference between a sharpshooter weapon and a sniper is that a sniper rifle holds 1 quarter minute of angle i.e if you out the weapon in a vice and fire anything from 5-5,000 rounds, every round will go through the same hole (accounting for weapon cleaning and maintenance)

In short:The difference between a weapon with 870mpv and 830mpv can mean the difference between 10-30clicks'ish (not accounting for ammo type and efficiency of ammo and batch number) elevation, the lower the mpv the more elevation you add for lack of power.

Implementation via scripts mods probably: Why not have the game spawn a random mpv for random players who want to snipe, then spawn the basic ballistic table for the corresponding mpv and that means the player will have to calculate his Clicks and the distances to and from target

Deflection.

2. Wind calculations, This amounts to the speed(s) of the wind(s) between you and your target, Snipers can face up to as many as 6 winds with incredible differences in kph between them all. This would mean the player would have to gauge the way the grass/treetops/bushes are moving near the target not to mention the direction of said winds i.e left to right, right to left

Wind speed close to the end of the barrel has the greatest effect on the trajectory of the round fired, different wind speeds means different clicks Deflection, the higher the wind speed the higher the clicks increase.

Implementation via mods or scripts probably: Have the map spawn wind directions and speeds, or have 'zones' or areas where when entered the players rifle will automatically move the invisible crosshairs to the right or left when zoomed so he will have to click his deflection the opposing way to where he would be able to fire at instantaneously.

Out of the woods? I think not!

Not only does the speed of the wind change the deflection of the round, the angle of where the wind crosses the barrel, Simply imagine a barrel pointing to the 12 o'clock, if a wind crosses the barrel heading from 7 o'clock to 1 o'clock at 5kph the player would have to click anywhere from 1-7clicks into the wind i.e left. (wind does not travel in lasers it travels in huge sheets (dependant on mpv, the round fired)

3. coSign, in short as i bet your brain mushed is shooting up and down hill, usually you -elevation clicks to account for the culminating point of the round fired (culminating point is the point where the round can gather no more height) bullets do not fly like lasers they fly in arcs.

I wont beat on more but if you'd like to know more, feel free to add me.

To be honest guys sniping in this game and all arma games (vanilla) is awful and incredibly simple even just adding wind does't do snipers justice. And its in such a way that you could hit some one at 2,500ms 1st round hit. there are roughly 11-12+ things (The things almost instantaneously thought about) a sniper must consider before he even thinks about squeezing a shot off.

Pease bare with spelling errors and what not, I'm using a ipad and i suck at typing with it.

Ive no experience with AMR's apart from the AW50, as for the cheytec i cant comment i can only tell you the basics of it all.

oh and can some one please add foliage or guillie to the weapon, its all good hiding in a bush but not many bushes have a huge cylindrical barrel hanging out of them.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Inimcal_

[progamer 14]

I agree with this 100% sniping shouldn't just be some walk in the park class. sniping is very difficult!

Ok, you sort of lost me here...:icon_ohmygod: I agree a rifle systems should have the capability to equipt a bi-pod but it should never be mandatory.

Additional recoil... yes! Most long ranger weapon systems uses .308 caliber and up; But, to say near imposible to engage accuratly while crouched or standing is quite a reach. one of the most accurate and stable firing positions is sitting Indian style (fyi). In my opinion I think Battlefields 3 did it very accurately by allowing bi-pods to be deployed just about everywhere (ex. rocks, hoods of vehicles, low hanging tree branches when standing, highway dividers, window ledges, ect.)

I love this!!!!!!!! Seperate the MEN from the boys. any one who plays this game as a true sniper should love this. The concept of "wind" effecting point of aim point of impact adds another rinkle of difficulty which reduces the amount of people who will just equipt a long range system without proper trainning.

---------- Post added at 17:20 ---------- Previous post was at 17:09 ----------

See but that is the issue... Daveallen10 is stating that wind needs to be universal in all servers. Also, not just for long range systems but anyone engaging a target at a conciderable distance should have to compensate for wind. That means the guy/girl with the M4/M16, M249, or .50 cal, ect. should all have to keep in mind there is wind to adjust for.

By saying the bullet wind interaction needs to be universal, mean every server would have to have wind turned on in the first place.

[daveallen10 35]

I've actually come to realize that all scopes are way too easy to aim when you're in prone. There is virtually no sway even though you are not resting your weapon on anything. It makes distance kills easy. I'm gonna make a new thread for this.

[max power 21]

No thanks. This thread will suffice. Please use this thread, and make a new ticket on the feedback tracker if necessary.

[l mandrake 9]

@Inimcal_ : Great post, I learned a lot - thanks for sharing!

[seannybgoode 10]

You guys know that ACE mod does this in Arma 2 right? Hopefully it will hit Arma 3 soon (if it hasn't already, I'm a little out of date at the moment).

You have wind and bullet drop that you have to compensate for, as well as bipod vs prone, as well as the ability to drop a backpack and rest your rifle on it.

Ace is awesome.

[daveallen10 35]

Inimcal, I really enjoyed reading as well. There are limits to how realistic long-range rifles can and should be made in the game obviously, but I think you summed it up but saying that it is currently way too easy and a real sniper must take into account many factors before firing a shot.

Also, the part where now everyone is a sniper or has a 12x scoped EBR because its just so dang easy.

[l mandrake 9]

Ace is awesome.

Without doubt - but many of its features should be difficulty options in vanilla ArmA. Perhaps BIS should hire the ACE team and fully integrate their mod into A3.....

[chortles 263]

I honestly haven't heard anything from the ACE guys about ACE3 in public after the alpha release. (This is as opposed to devheaven stuff.)

Edited June 14, 2013 by Chortles

[Masharra 10]

I honestly haven't heard anything from the ACE guys about ACE3 in public after the alpha release. (This is as opposed to devheaven stuff.)

Makes me nervous, that does. Hopefully there may be others who will make something similar to ACE3 if they decide not to.

[chortles 263]

There's already "VTS weapon resting script"... :p But Devheaven shows a noticeable bit of post-alpha-release updating on Arma 3 tickets (I'm admittedly disregarding every ticket that was last updated before 2013... the year of the Steamworks announcement ;) ) with four still listed as assigned and one as in-progress ("90%")... the thing is, I'm really not seeing much movement on the comments other than a request for the Spike-LR (man-portable ATGM) having its target version set to Arma 3 less than a day ago, and admittedly I'm not aware of any other ACE guys besides Xeno, Sickboy and rocko.

[yarex 0]

Arma should introduce bullet winding. Best would be wind indicator similar to stance indicator, something like:

XXXXX : 000XX and every shooter at 500+m distance should counter that.

Also earplugs should be introduced into game.

When used - soldier would hear only loudest explosions and environmental noises.

When not used, after each shot would hear high tone ear whistling for some random time greater then 30s.

[Inimical_rize 1]

@ guys with thanks_ No problem, no doubt you'll see me post alot of stuff like this from time to time, I believe people have an incorrct or not up to date knowledge of a sniper, his job, and how he applies it.

[-Gews- 1]

Without doubt - but many of its features should be difficulty options in vanilla ArmA. Perhaps BIS should hire the ACE team and fully integrate their mod into A3.....

Exactly, BIS should look at adding many ACE features into vanilla ArmA 3.

[-Coulum- 35]

Good post Inimcal_. I am almost positivce none of it will make it into vanilla arma (I mean they won't even oput in ACE 2 style wind or bipods) but it would be awesome to have this in game and I find it very interesting regardless.

Increasing the fatigue penalty for using these weapons would be good.

But I personally think the problem is not the gun as much as the scope. This is what leads to the overpowered sniper abilites. I don't need that huge behemoth of a gun to snipe peole at long range. Just did a test and at 700 metres with the MX and the 12x scope (I believe thats the power) and I was able to get first time kill shot. And it was all as easy as

Go prone

page up until my zero is 700 metres.

Point.

Click.

The first and easiest thing I think should be done with all weapons is to make prone weapon sway slightly higher. Right now it isn't even worth it to hold breath while prone because your weapon is pretty much as stable as its going to get right off the bat.

[progamer 14]

Exactly, BIS should look at adding many ACE features into vanilla ArmA 3.

ACE is more of a more realistic infantry simulation mod, Arma is a combined arms game.

[metalcraze 290]

Increasing the fatigue penalty for using these weapons would be good.

They already give bigger fatigue penalty but since fatigue system in ArmA3 is just a bunch of visual effects and has zero effect on gameplay - it changes literally nothing.

The first and easiest thing I think should be done with all weapons is to make prone weapon sway slightly higher. Right now it isn't even worth it to hold breath while prone because your weapon is pretty much as stable as its going to get right off the bat.

No sway will fix laser precision of weapons in ArmA3. Because ballistics. Windage is what will.

VTS Ballistics mod shows how a lot more skill is needed to hit things at a distance if all of it wasn't a mod but official.

[Hartmann 10]

Ridiculous accuracy and absurd ease of long range shots needs to be fixed. As long as you know the distance of a target you can hit it with pin point accuracy every single time, this shouldn't happen.

Wind influence and loss of accuracy over range depending on the weapon used needs to be a factor. ACE already showed us in Arma 2 that this makes both for more realism and better gameplay.

[Superman0023 10]

Just keep in mind, Superman0023, that we're talking about the anti-materiel rifles here -- whereas if you're talking about ".308"/7.62 x 51 mm weapons, the EBR is such a weapon and one which you could also throw the Sniper Optical Sight onto. (The MXM was previously a 7.62 x 45 mm rifle, as was the EBR, until the MXM was "down-calibered".)

Yes, I agree! I would be shocked to see anyone standing with lets say a "338 Lapua magnum,.50 cal, or any similar larger caliber rifle"; yet, a M40, EMR, M110, M14, ect. are all do-able in the aspect of standing while firing. You would still have some sway (from the M40, ect.) and depending on the distance to the target you should stilll be able to effectively suppress him/her. But back to your point the "anti-material rifles" sway should be crazy if attempting to fire while standing... some of these rifles can weight in at 30 lbs. :butbut:

[KingScuba 1]

If you want Wind and all that fancy stuff, we have ACE mod in arma 2, which will be coming to arma 3 in due order. I love the features in ace to be honest, ESPECIALLY ACRE (I love acre so goddamn much). I wish that arma would switch their VON to an ACRE model, but keep chats switchable as they are now.

I completely agree that bipods should be in game, and it's not hard to implement. The sway should be a little bit bigger, but considering we don't have any bipods, it's fine at the moment, though i wish there was less (Again, simply because there's a LACK of bipods).

Bipods should be present on guns such as the mk200, snipers, and even some designated marksmen rifles (Which are not in game atm).

[chortles 263]

If you want Wind and all that fancy stuff, we have ACE mod in arma 2, which will be coming to arma 3 in due order.

Honest question: Are you an ACE team member?

[Random_Sequence 10]

Taking wind into account would be interesting, but it matters at distances where targets are already hard to hit due to visibility (depends on how powerful your computer is and the server load but you see my point).

[KingScuba 1]

Honest question: Are you an ACE team member?

Better question : Considering the community we have, Why would you assume it won't regardless of the makers wish? (And no, i'm not)

To random, the visibility isn't an issue at all currently, it's the really bad textures that turn invisible after about 800m so you end up hitting the hill said bot is hiding behind.