[MP/Team] Sa-Matra's Wasteland

[Iridium2824 10]

Why should Thermal provide a disadvantage? where is the disadvantage of having and ARCO scope? you basically have the disadvantage, that you can't see the terrain as good as without optics.

Perhaps the word "disadvantage" was poorly chosen. What I mean to say is that there is no effective counter against a player using thermal imaging. And I'm reluctant to say, but it just seems to easy to use. It essentially negates all forms of camouflage and use of cover.

I remember seeing a .gif image someone had created in another game that featured thermal optics that visualized the issue I'm attempting to present. Unfortunately I cannot seem to locate it so I'll try to describe it. It started with the player viewing a water tower with some buildings and foliage in first person view with the naked eye. A caption said something like "Now spot the enemy soldiers." After some time elapsed the caption changed to "Now spot the soldiers using an IRNV", and the player used their IRNV and viewed the same location. This time, however, you could very clearly spot 3 or 4 soldier's heat signatures with ease. So it just boils down to finding the bright spot and shooting at it.

Regardless of weapon type; thermal imaging alone is extremely useful in a purely reconnaissance capacity. One could, for example, have an Armored Boat w/ Thermals sitting 1km off shore and scan the coast for heat signatures and relay that information to friendlies. Those players could be using cover, camouflage and a cautious approach, but its all for nothing because someone can see them regardless of the best effort.

I don't like this Idea. A equipment that masks the thermal signature of an player seems too futuristic to me. I also have to strongly disagree against the Batterie idea. Armored vehicles already need constant ammunition resupply which is, as mentioned before, pretty tough to get. You also still need food and water even when you are in an armored vehicle. In your theory a player with an armored vehicle needs:

-Batteries

-Food

-Water

-(Fuel)*

-Ammunition

-and let's face it, repair kits.

*You rarely need it, except for the single time when you capture it

Seems more like a burden than an actual upgrade. I know that you can still run the vehicle without batteries but i think that you need thermal as mentioned in several posts before.

I wouldn't consider it futuristic. The game does take please in the near-future so it's all a matter of suspension of disbelief. The thermal issue could easily be solved but the outright removal of all thermal equipment; but that would be a cop-out. The choice should always be in the player's hands and not forced on them. I'm always up for more choice. Batteries, within the narrative of the title make sense. Equipment should be difficult to maintain. Generally speaking, everyone is just as effective using low-tech as they are using high-tech, but their should be a conscious weight determining on what path to take. You may have the high-tech gear, but without the secondary equipment necessarily for it to work, it becomes low-tech, and vice-versa. For balancing purposes, when using vehicles weapon systems without batteries you can still use the display or the Picture-In-Picture, just not thermal or night sights. As for vehicles and their ammunition, I find it currently has great balance. Ammo is rare, it should be rare. It should be difficult to acquire more of it. It just means that players have to be more cautious when using it.

You remind me that fuel really isn't as useful as it could be. Unless the vehicle sustained damaged to the fuel tank, you generally don't burn fuel at a fast enough rate. Other than, as you said, the initial time when you obtain the vehicles you don't really need fuel. I believe it only becomes a concern when operating helicopters for long durations.

Good discussion, though I feel we could benefit from other perspectives or input as well.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Iridium2824
Re-formatted original first paragraph.

[madmaxm 10]

Myself and Ceh are admins... Sa-Matra has been very busy not had chance to cover this sort of thing with him.

Suggestions:

- Icons for food and drink, could be more arma 3 stlye.

- KA rifle (donno the original name). Their ammo box could use as money on the ground. Instead of large bags.

- The starting clothing for (red, blue, etc...) is rubbish (sry it is). Adding normal cammo clothing, would be better.

- Add 10x faster fuel drain for helicopter and 5-6x for heavy vehicles (would need tweaking).

- Add lapua caliber sniper rifle to the shop.

Bugs:

- You cannot pick up first aid. You have to drop it 1st. on ground.

- Destroyed building (already made like this by BIS), have floating items.

Exploit:

- Players drive up several vehicles to the shop and sell items from them to get crazy amount of $$$.

-Players should die to enemy's with better equipment otherwise the whole game mode of searching and fighting for better gear is absurd.

Your argument is vague at the most. More like a COD statement or something like that. I will kill (and did and always will) enemy team or enemy's with pistol, while they are having top notch items. Because i can and i got skill to do it. Skill is what you need (looking at your comment, it seems you don't and/or lacking fps skill/s). No luck, no COD style shooting (bigger gun, faster killing).

(Arma 2, Arma 3, CS, CSS, CS:GO, with pistol you can and you will be able to kill enemy who has the best gear, if you have skill)

Edit: To show you literally why skill is more important then the best gun. Just yesterday i killed enemy team of 5 players. I had nooby pistol few clips, while enemy team had rifles, machine guns etc... I pick them one by one in small town, until last of them died. All that happened on UK2 server.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Madmaxm

[akiba 10]

Perhaps the word "disadvantage" was poorly chosen. What I mean to say is that there is no effective counter against a player using thermal imaging. And I'm reluctant to say, but it just seems to easy to use. It essentially negates all forms of camouflage and use of cover. I remember seeing a .gif image someone had created in another game that featured thermal optics that visualized the issue I'm attempting to present. Unfortunately I cannot seem to locate it so I'll try to describe it. It started with the player viewing a water tower with some buildings and foliage in first person view with the naked eye. A caption said something like "Now spot the enemy soldiers." After some time elapsed the caption changed to "Now spot the soldiers using an IRNV", and the player used their IRNV and viewed the same location. This time, however, you could very clearly spot 3 or 4 soldier's heat signatures with ease. So it just boils down to finding the bright spot and shooting at it. Regardless of weapon type; thermal imaging alone is extremely useful in a purely reconnaissance capacity. One could, for example, have an Armored Boat w/ Thermals sitting 1km off shore and scan the coast for heat signatures and relay that information to friendlies. Those players could be using cover, camouflage and a cautious approach, but its all for nothing because someone can see them regardless of the best effort.

Simply put: Yes it is very powerful. Basically there should be no balance in ArmA 3 considering weapons. Please take your time and read the previous pages where you can see my arguments considering at weapons.

You remind me that fuel really isn't as useful as it could be. Unless the vehicle sustained damaged to the fuel tank, you generally don't burn fuel at a fast enough rate. Other than, as you said, the initial time when you obtain the vehicles you don't really need fuel. I believe it only becomes a concern when operating helicopters for long durations.

Yes Fuel should be used up quicker in vehicles and big helos.

Suggestions:

- You cannot pick up first aid. You have to drop it 1st. on ground.

- Destroyed building (already made like this by BIS), have floating items.

Exploit:

- Players drive up several vehicles to the shop and sell items from them to get crazy amount of $$$.

Your argument is vague at the most. More like a COD statement or something like that. I will kill (and did and always will) enemy team or enemy's with pistol, while they are having top notch items. Because i can and i got skill to do it. Skill is what you need (looking at your comment, it seems you don't and/or lacking fps skill/s). No luck, no COD style shooting (bigger gun, faster killing).

(Arma 2, Arma 3, CS, CSS, CS:GO, with pistol you can and you will be able to kill enemy who has the best gear, if you have skill)

Edit: To show you literally why skill is more important then the best gun. Just yesterday i killed enemy team of 5 players. I had nooby pistol few clips, while enemy team had rifles, machine guns etc... I pick them one by one in small town, until last of them died. All that happened on UK2 server.

I will simply ignore your bad behavior. Please consider your language towards others. We have a good, respectful discussion running here, please don't ruin it.

You shouldn't always win an encounter just because you have the "bigger" weapon. But it should definitely give you an advantage. War isn't always about skill. Good luck killing a tank with your pistol ;). I'm glad that you are such a good player that you can kill everyone with a pistol though.

[madmaxm 10]

I will simply ignore your bad behavior. Please consider your language towards others. We have a good, respectful discussion running here, please don't ruin it.

What ? :confused: Where did i insult you ? Ah... i must insulted your ego. it seems. My topic is normally written and does not brake any rules on this forums.

Edit:

1st. part of my topic was for Samatra admins. 2nd. part was for you, to counter your arguments. 3rd and last, was to show, that you don't need high end guns to kill everybody in arma 3.

I hope it's clear a bit more.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Madmaxm

[akiba 10]

What ? :confused: Where did i insult you ? Ah... i must insulted your ego. it seems. My topic is normally written and does not brake any rules on this forums.

Edit:

1st. part of my topic was for Samatra admins. 2nd. part was for you, to counter your arguments. 3rd and last, was to show, that you don't need high end guns to kill everybody in arma 3.

I hope it's clear a bit more.

You are trying to provoke, or at least many people will feel provoked by your writing but whatever...

You didn't counter my argument (not plural). Basically you are saying that you don't need to pick up better (caliber, range, accuracy) weapons because you can kill everyone with your pistol?. That's not it. Of course you can and should be able to win a fight with a weapon that is inferior to the weapon of your opponent, but the one with the better weapon has an advantage. I mean he should have otherwise everybody would just run around with the pistol and not searching for supply to increase their chance to survive.

sincerely, Akiba

[Iridium2824 10]

Let me preface this by stating that I would love Thermals to make a return---but not without some form of counter.

Simply put: Yes it is very powerful. Basically there should be no balance in ArmA 3 considering weapons. Please take your time and read the previous pages where you can see my arguments considering at weapons.

I have read your previous arguments, but the problem is that you seem to be ignoring that there IS an issue. You don't seem to be offering any solutions, except the request to turn Thermals back on. And of course, the implementation of an auditory/visual indication that helicopters are being targeted. (Ground vehicles would benefit greatly from this auditory/visual indication of a lock-on as well!). To which, of the latter I agree wholly!

Let's consider Guided AT Weaponry against Armored Vehicles.

As it is now, there is no effective defense against guided AT weaponry. The weaponry itself can be relatively easy to acquire for players,(especially those that exploit the duplication glitch.) The risk to the player using AT weapon is minimal, other than the weight/capacity restrictions and possibility of revealing one's location. The complexity of using the weapon is non-existent. Simply point at target > Wait until Lock > Fire. I realize that in reality these weapons exist and are designed to be "easy" to use---but In-game it just isn't fun, it's frustrating.

So how do we fix AT? Re-introducing Thermal Optics won't instantly solve this issue. This is a problem with balance. Once Bohemia Interactive corrects the duplication glitch that will solve some of the abundance of higher end gear. Perhaps the weapon's damage needs to be toned down. Or the smoke trail left by one needs to be more evident, allowing players to follow the trail back to the source. Are these changes even possible within the limitation of the game-engine, server and mission? This could be discussed in-depth more.

Now, how do we fix Armored Vehicles? Increasing their resistance to guided munitions would be one. As you mentioned, adding a auditory/visual indication of a lock-on would be brilliant. Night vision certainly needs to be re-introduced, if possible. What else? Armored Vehicles ARE powerful yes, they should be! But they should also be vulnerable to clever tactics and strategy, even in the future.

I understand what your trying to say, I do. You feel that the best defense against AT units is using Thermal Imaging to spot them before they spot you. I feel this is a cheap way to solve a problem that can be handled in-game (possibly) with more ingenuity. I want Thermals back, I just want to be able to protect against it also. As I mentioned before, even under a purely reconnaissance capacity---Thermal weaponry can dominate the battlefield with intelligence alone (as in relaying enemy movement to friendlies).

I don't understand why you are against balance? There are several other Wasteland variant servers that provide absolutely no balance, and they aren't fun at all. And yet the lack of balance on certain equipment is the point of this entire discussion regarding Thermal Imaging. As an APC user, heck as a player in any situation--there should be a conscious decision when performing any actions. Using APCs as an example: Engines are off, you have not been detected and you see a helicopter landing in a field. Do you attack that target, revealing yourself? What do you have to gain from the attack? Maybe the deceased will have great equipment, or resources. How well equiped is the target to defend itself? Do you have the ammunition to engage? Do they? Do you have a fallback should your engagement turn sour? It is, after all, Wasteland. Ammo should be precious, resources scarce. Death likely, re spawn inevitable. Risk versus Reward. Loss. Loss of items, of resources, of patience... that is what is always at risk.

It's all about Balance and Counter-Balance. And that, is exactly why I keep coming back to Sa-Matra's Wasteland, and Tonic's before it. Balance Matters.

EDIT I hope that my response didn't come off as aggressive. It isn't intended to be.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Iridium2824
Hindsight

[akiba 10]

Hi,

First of all i wanted to say that i really enjoyed your post. Good discussion!

Let me preface this by stating that I would love Thermals to make a return---but not without some form of counter.

I have read your previous arguments, but the problem is that you seem to be ignoring that there IS an issue. You don't seem to be offering any solutions, except the request to turn Thermals back on. And of course, the implementation of an auditory/visual indication that helicopters are being targeted. (Ground vehicles would benefit greatly from this auditory/visual indication of a lock-on as well!). To which, of the latter I agree wholly!

Well they would benefit from it of course but cover is scarce in Stratis and you only have 2 smokescreens (do they even work against AT?) at max :(.

Let's consider Guided AT Weaponry against Armored Vehicles.

As it is now, there is no effective defense against guided AT weaponry. The weaponry itself can be relatively easy to acquire for players,(especially those that exploit the duplication glitch.) The risk to the player using AT weapon is minimal, other than the weight/capacity restrictions and possibility of revealing one's location. The complexity of using the weapon is non-existent. Simply point at target > Wait until Lock > Fire. I realize that in reality these weapons exist and are designed to be "easy" to use---but In-game it just isn't fun, it's frustrating.

So how do we fix AT? Re-introducing Thermal Optics won't instantly solve this issue. This is a problem with balance. Once Bohemia Interactive corrects the duplication glitch that will solve some of the abundance of higher end gear. Perhaps the weapon's damage needs to be toned down. Or the smoke trail left by one needs to be more evident, allowing players to follow the trail back to the source. Are these changes even possible within the limitation of the game-engine, server and mission? This could be discussed in-depth more.

I strongly disagree to reduce the damage of the Titan weapons!. It would be just another Battlefield aspect then. It is just not realistic anymore when a Tank survives 4-5 RPG's. AT Weapons should destroy vehicles pretty easy and armed vehicles should kill infantry pretty easy..that's how it goes. Yes sometime it's frustrating but you won't fix this issue by nerfing weapons. Starcraft for example balances by having multiple "overpowered" units. Yes they are very strong itself but the other op units are as well and it is a lot of fun. Of course we are talking about an FPS sim game and not about an RTS one but i hope you know what i mean.

I would like to restrict Thermal to higher class vehicles, so the Hunter/Ifrit/strider vehicles won't have it.

Now, how do we fix Armored Vehicles? Increasing their resistance to guided munitions would be one. As you mentioned, adding a auditory/visual indication of a lock-on would be brilliant. Night vision certainly needs to be re-introduced, if possible. What else? Armored Vehicles ARE powerful yes, they should be! But they should also be vulnerable to clever tactics and strategy, even in the future.

And there are!. Thermal won't safe you in close areas like a Town. Enemy's will still get into your blind spot where you can't shoot them with the main weapon and destroy your wheels or plant explosives. Thermal doesn't provide 360° view!.

I understand what your trying to say, I do. You feel that the best defense against AT units is using Thermal Imaging to spot them before they spot you. I feel this is a cheap way to solve a problem that can be handled in-game (possibly) with more ingenuity. I want Thermals back, I just want to be able to protect against it also. As I mentioned before, even under a purely reconnaissance capacity---Thermal weaponry can dominate the battlefield with intelligence alone (as in relaying enemy movement to friendlies).

It boils down to who has the first shot basically, yes. And that is tense!. The vehicle crew has to be on their toes to spot for enemy's and this isn't as easy as you think even with thermal. It is exhausting. I like it this way. The reconnaissance problem isn't really big. Remember, the commander seat still has thermal but the use as a reconnaissance is pretty rare even though i would like to see it more often, because it is strong but it requires a lot of Teamwork!. Most of the times people will just get confused when you tell them where the enemy is. It is not very easy so it should be rewarding for a team with good teamwork. I also don't like the word "dominate" here. I don't think it fits because even when the enemy position is kinda revealed (most of the time you can only tell your teammates roughly where they are) there is still a good possibility that he will kill your teammates.

sincerely, Akiba

[ickli 10]

Although this forum account is new, i've played on your servers for a while now and one big problem i've noticed is that there's a distinct lack of admins available while i play.

I'm from the UK and play in the early hours of the morning as well as in the afternoon. Multiple times i've joined the Sa Matra Teamspeak ,seeking help from an admin for problems such as stealing and griefing, to find no one available to help. Never have i seen an admin online in my times on th e Teamspeak. It really isn't nice not knowing whether i can get help if i need it. Me and my friends all agree that more admins are needed for both sorting out arguements and rule breaking, as well as beign available to restart servers after they drag on for 15+ hours.

Please do not see this post as being agressive towards Sa-Matra's Wasteland and it's team but rather constructive critisism from someone trying to have a better time on your servers for both himself and others.

[akiba 10]

Although this forum account is new, i've played on your servers for a while now and one big problem i've noticed is that there's a distinct lack of admins available while i play.

I'm from the UK and play in the early hours of the morning as well as in the afternoon. Multiple times i've joined the Sa Matra Teamspeak ,seeking help from an admin for problems such as stealing and griefing, to find no one available to help. Never have i seen an admin online in my times on th e Teamspeak. It really isn't nice not knowing whether i can get help if i need it. Me and my friends all agree that more admins are needed for both sorting out arguements and rule breaking, as well as beign available to restart servers after they drag on for 15+ hours.

Please do not see this post as being agressive towards Sa-Matra's Wasteland and it's team but rather constructive critisism from someone trying to have a better time on your servers for both himself and others.

I fully agree. We need more admins on the servers, especially the EU ones. I often joined the teamspeak to talk to an admin too and stayed there for hours with no one joining. Russian admins were there though.

Back to the Thermal topic. Inch, as you mentioned you can switch it back on, will you do it?.

[inch 2]

Hi people.

We've set this up, its still WIP. But please let us know of any issues.

http://wasteland.arma-3.co.uk/forums/

---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:13 ----------

Although this forum account is new, i've played on your servers for a while now and one big problem i've noticed is that there's a distinct lack of admins available while i play.

I'm from the UK and play in the early hours of the morning as well as in the afternoon. Multiple times i've joined the Sa Matra Teamspeak ,seeking help from an admin for problems such as stealing and griefing, to find no one available to help. Never have i seen an admin online in my times on th e Teamspeak. It really isn't nice not knowing whether i can get help if i need it. Me and my friends all agree that more admins are needed for both sorting out arguements and rule breaking, as well as beign available to restart servers after they drag on for 15+ hours.

Please do not see this post as being agressive towards Sa-Matra's Wasteland and it's team but rather constructive critisism from someone trying to have a better time on your servers for both himself and others.

I also login regularly to the UK servers and ask "Hi all is everything OK?"

However I also have a company to run thus sleep when you're playing ;)

[progamer 14]

Just to be clear, are you guys and gals arguing about the balancing the mission or the actual vanilla base game? Can't tell with the comments. Because balance is done by the mission maker(s) and not BIS!

[Gr8-White 10]

I would love to be able to host your server in South Africa, i have sent you a pm as well as an e-mail. :p

[BrAnnA 10]

Hi all can anyone please help me we rented a server for Arma 3 in South Africa as there is only one other server

running we trying to find the the wasteland by sa-matra (v4) mission file or PBO file to run on our server if anyone can help us we would appreciate very much.

[Native 10]

Moved it to proper forum.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Native

[akiba 10]

Trying join Ru #1 i got hit with a ban with a message about gamehack #26. Found out it was because i was running cheat engine at the same time, at least that was what other people said about it.

Is it anything Sa-Matra can do or am i forever cursed to stalk the dreaded wasteland that is 404?

You have to go to the new Forum and post in Ban appeals: http://wasteland.arma-3.co.uk/forums/

sincerely, Akiba

[jbryan 3]

Hi all can anyone please help me we rented a server for Arma 3 in South Africa as there is only one other server

running we trying to find the the wasteland by sa-matra (v4) mission file or PBO file to run on our server if anyone can help us we would appreciate very much.

Good luck, they are very picky about who they have host their mission apparently.

[kremator 1065]

Serves you right Native ! I hope Battleye bans you completely. NO EXCUSE for using cheats.

[Triikor 10]

I have some questions for admins/developers:

Do we get [DEV] RU server back online, or it is better to return to stable version servers?

The questions below may be answered, but if they are not:

Will 3rd person view be removed? Its only supports sitting in place player, not moving one.

Is it possible to make mines of independed not visible as red triangle to non-friendly independed?

Can we get m320/Lynx with SOS installed (with prices increase accordingly), or get Lynx/m320 simulateneously with SOS in shop assortement?

Can we get water/food in shops? Last time i had a big problem finding water barrels in some towns.

Is it possible to make day/night change smooth? It looks like OMG LIGHTS OFF! LIGHTS ON SUDDENLY! for now.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Triikor

[akiba 10]

I have some questions for admins/developers:

Do we get [DEV] RU server back online, or it is better to return to stable version servers?

The questions below may be answered, but if they are not:

Will 3rd person view be removed? Its only supports sitting in place player, not moving one.

Is it possible to make mines of independed not visible as red triangle to non-friendly independed?

Can we get m320/Lynx with SOS installed (with prices increase accordingly), or get Lynx/m320 simulateneously with SOS in shop assortement?

Can we get water/food in shops? Last time i had a big problem finding water barrels in some towns.

Is it possible to make day/night change smooth? It looks like OMG LIGHTS OFF! LIGHTS ON SUDDENLY! for now.

Again, go to the new Forum and post there!.

- 3rd person is disabled on hardcore servers.

- probably not any time soon because sa-matra is really busy working on altis

- No.

- No.

- Work in progress.

[Native 10]

Please, no need to be hostile, used CE for Saints row and forgot to shut it down. Do you really think i would buy the supporter edition only to waste it by cheating?

[The_Goch 10]

*edit nm.

Edited August 29, 2013 by The_Goch

[boneboys 0]

Hi people.

We've set this up, its still WIP. But please let us know of any issues.

http://wasteland.arma-3.co.uk/forums/

Having trouble creating an account (unable).

FAQ gives page error and registration is stuck on Date of Birth.

I've tried sending a mail to Admin but this also gives an error message, so I've no idea if a mail has been sent or not (twice).

I may be doing something wrong but I don't think so.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

EDIT :Is there a wait time for validation ?

Edited August 29, 2013 by BoneBoys
added Edit.

[inch 2]

Hi there,

So long as you passed the Age-verification and completed the Captcha there should be no issues.

However we recently migrated our forums to: http://forums.arma.su/

Please retry let me know if continue to have issues.

Inch

Edited September 6, 2013 by Inch

[boneboys 0]

Hi there,

So long as you passed the Age-verification and completed the Captcha there should be no issues.

However we recently migrated our forums to: http://forums.arma.su/

Please retry let me know if continue to have issues.

Inch

I just get stuck on the Age page, no option to advance to the next page or anything.

Never had this sort of problem before.

[inch 2]

Please confirm you're older than 18. PM me further issues.

Thanks.