Anti-Tank weapons BROKEN in Alpha, are their configs REVERSED? (NLAW,RPG42)

[fraczek 4]

I have several major gameplay and config issues with the AT weapons in the Alpha, the NLAW and RPG-42. Couldn't find a thread about it here, so a new one (please merge if otherwise).

1) NLAW guidance is broken?

• Background: NLAW is guided soft-launch missile launcher (per ingame descr. and real life). Modelled probably after the Swedish NLAW and/or Israeli/Lockheed SRAW , both of whose are PLOS (predicted line of sight) fire and forget guided missiles with about 600m effective range (compared to 2500m Javelin effective range), with final guidance on target by laser/radar fuse.
  
• Observed:
  unless Auto Guide AT is ENABLED in game difficulty. Meaning in Veteran, it is not guided at all. Not even a SACLOS. In reality, NLAW is Fire and Forget, where you track the target with reticule for about ten seconds and then the missile locks and computes the trajectory to impact, with a warhead radar fuse providing final warhead corrections.
  In A3, F&F works only with the tab-lock in Regular difficulties, anything avoce Tab-Lock is disabled, but NLAW can't lock on target even with using Lock or Zoom hotkey (default: Hold RMB).
  
• Expected:
  When AutoGuideAT ENABLED (Regular diff.) - TabLock on target
  When AutoGuideAT DISABLED - (Veteran diff.+) Hold RMB with target in reticule to lock
  

2) RPG-42 trajectory is broken?

• Background: RPG-42 is recoilless unguided antitank rocket launcher (per ingame description). The rocket motor ignites, and stabilised by fins continues unguided for a short time until the motor burns out, when it takes a (rather steep) balistic trajectory.
  
• Observed: RPG projectile has NO balistic trajectory. (same old bug as with Carl Gustav and others in A2 vanilla, corrected with ACE or CCP). You simply aim the red reticule and it hits there, regardless if target distance is 200m or 1500m! Basically, it flies in completely straight trajectory like a rocket without motor burnout = WRONG
  
• Expected: RPG rocket motor should have a short burnout, after which the projectile follows balistic trajectory (ie it has a steep drop over distance). That's why there are different aiming points for different distances in the optics.
  
• Observed 2: If you aim at an enemy vehicle with the RPG42, if you watch closely you can observe that about 100m from the target, the projectile climbs steeply and hits the target from slightly above, like a GUIDED MISSILE. This is reproductlible every time with lockable targets (even though you can't get a lock with this weapon). This is a behaviour the NLAW should have. With nonlockable targets, the projectile flies straight on until burnout (which is not visible even at 1500m, so no burnout to at least 1500m - wrong again).
  

EDIT: More testing required. Something fishy was going on with Kronsky's Movable Target Range mission I tested this in. Can't seem to replicate in editor right now - although in editor, both weapons seem to be guided, although without any lock-on diamond, and the thing about their straight flight still applies. As well as strange top attack mode of the RPG42 which should be on the NLAW instead.

Edited March 31, 2013 by fraczek

[HKFlash 9]

You forgot to mention that the NLAW is reloadable.

[Smurf 12]

Launchers are just palceholders in the Alpha, expect improvements.

Looking forward to see something better than was done in A1 and 2.

[gossamersolid 155]

Launchers are just palceholders in the Alpha, expect improvements.

Looking forward to see something better than was done in A1 and 2.

While the configs are placeholders, don't expect anything better than what was in A1 and A2...

[Beagle 684]

While the configs are placeholders, don't expect anything better than what was in A1 and A2...

In the last betas there was quite an improvement made by A2CCP including mandatory lock on time for NLAW, manual guidance only mode for Dragon and METIS and balistic flight arc for unguided AT. Edited April 1, 2013 by Beagle

[gossamersolid 155]

in the last betas there was quite an improvent made by A2CCP including mandatory lock on time for NLAW, Manual guidance only for Dragon and METIS and ballistic flight arc for unguidd AT.

Ah I haven't played ArmA 2 very much at all in the last few months.

[fraczek 4]

I hope they are just placeholders. But still good to raise the issues now, before they get cemented ingame for the next ten years like with Arma before...

Looking at the configs:

RPG has thrust of 1050

NLAW has 334

Time to live is 6 for RPG

3 for NLAW

MaxSpeed is 750 for RPG

340 for NLAW

Maneuverability is 7 for RPG

14 for NLAW (that might explain the weird "top attack mode" on locked targets with RPG as just a result of its lower maneuverability)

Both have CanLock=2 (lock even on Veteran), RPG has 2 time to lock, NLAW has 3.

Using Kronzky's Movable Target Range for Arma3 mission, I get these typical speeds:

NLAW ~120m/s at 500-1000m

RPG ~170m/s at 500-1000m

RPG flies completely straight at least to 1000m (longest distance I tested), meaning it hits like a laser. Even unlocked targets. You can aim with the red dot on any range.

NLAW has slight drop after launch (result of lower thrust I presume) and some buildup of altitude then, resulting at some drop at 1000m (you aim with the lowest reticule)

So, if these are placeholders, why bother giving them different (and very strange) configs at all?

RPG should have way lower speed then the NLAW. See ACE and A2CCP configs. RPG should probably not be guided (well, can wait until they introduce more launchers hopefuly). NLAW should be disposable (but that can wait for ACE).

And possibly, we should get some locked indication even in Veteran mode.

BTW, I used Kronzky's movable target range for the reported speeds, if somebody has better script just to report continuously projectile speeds please PM me. Config values are from SixBrowser.

Added a http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=6607 ticket, feel free to comment there.

Edited April 1, 2013 by fraczek

[roberthammer 582]

Those configs aren't that bad - they just need some changes and tweaks even that they are close to the real life ones

Just check those Specifications of NLAW (MBT LAW) and RPG32 (in arma3 it is RPG42)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBT_LAW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-32

[maturin 12]

In the last betas there was quite an improvement made by A2CCP including mandatory lock on time for NLAW, manual guidance only mode for Dragon and METIS and balistic flight arc for unguided AT.

And ACE has had all that for years.

OA adopted official versions of a lot of modding achievements, and so much with launchers is BADLY overdue.

I mean, FFS, people have even scripted disposable AT into vanilla insurgency missions, no mods needed whatsoever.

[fraczek 4]

Those configs aren't that bad - they just need some changes and tweaks even that they are close to the real life ones

Just check those Specifications of NLAW (MBT LAW) and RPG32 (in arma3 it is RPG42)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBT_LAW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-32

I agree with the NLAW, it's a soft-launch missile launcher whose velocity should only increase until brennschluss (I guess the soft-launch speed is similar to Javelin, ie ~25m/s after leaving the tube until main motor ignition), and I basically agree with the ingame representation. Maybe just slight tweaks.

The RPG-32 wiki page states 140m/s muzzle velocity. That is ALREADY after brennschluss (motor burnout), as it is deigned to burn completely while still in the tube, like most RPGs. (quote: All use solid-fuel rocket motors which burn out completely while rocket is still in the launcher, and all are stabilized in flight using switch-blade type folding fins at the rear.

Therefore, the RPG has maximum speed upon leaving the muzzle, and then only looses speed and altitude in RL due to drag, unlike the game where it seems to be constant speed up until TimeToLive expires.

[r3m 10]

Voted on your feedback ticket. Good luck.

[Bahger 11]

Is there any hope that the AI will use them in A3?

I can get the NLAW to guide in Regular difficulty as long as I get a lock diamind, aim a little high at first so that the trajectory arcs down, not up (makes sense) and I keep the LMB pressed until impact.