Silencers - Why do they exist in ArmA 3?

[dayglow 2]

I just made a post in another suppressor thread, but I'll get the big one across here. NOBODY uses subsonic ammo for any sort of use of force capacity. It is ineffective velocity wise, expensive, and impracticable to load separately. Please feel free to ask me anything on the subject. I shoot suppressed regularly in the states.

From the other thread so it can be seen.

Well most .45 ACP rounds are subsonic and there's the continuous argument of heavy slow round vs light fast rounds for pistols.

Edited March 18, 2013 by DayGlow

[PN11A 2]

300BLK is of course a huge asterisk. If you are bringing it up then you are aware it is something of an special cartridge. 300BLK is not subsonic by standard, it is still a super sonic round. Subsonic 300BLK is a special loading, and while much more effective than other cartidges in it's class as a subsonic round (the whole design was based on this), subsonic 300BLK still has pretty piss poor range compared to non subsonic 300BLK or any other standard cartidge. The subsonic loading is definitely for specific applications even with 300BLK and once again is not the norm.

It sort of seems like you were trying to bring up something with which to shoot me down, and you chose an semi-uncommon round that has very specific properties with which to do so, which isn't really relevant to proving me wrong, nor to the discussion for ARMA in general. Why be so aggressive? Additionally, 'killing power' is a misnomer.

I was actually out with my buddy a couple months back shooting his Noveske 300BLK upper, both with subsonic and supersonic rounds. Subsonic had alot of issues cycling, even out of a premium rifle.

"beware of people who speak in absolutes."

You clearly stated that no one uses it, which is false. Im not trying to knock you down or whatever you are thinking. In the situations that those type of rounds are needed to kill bad guys those rounds are used, If you are using that type of round you are also not interested in the range factor. Im aware of the cycling issues with the ammunition, also there are fixes for that type of issue as well. If you are talking about 5.56 rounds then yes using 5.56 subsonic ammo is pointless.

---------- Post added at 16:50 ---------- Previous post was at 16:49 ----------

Well most .45 ACP rounds are subsonic and there's the continuous heavy slow round vs light fast rounds for pistols.

not to mention most 147 grain 9mm ammunition.

[fiberopticrabbit 1]

"beware of people who speak in absolutes."

You clearly stated that no one uses it, which is false. Im not trying to knock you down or whatever you are thinking. In the situations that those type of rounds are needed to kill bad guys those rounds are used, If you are using that type of round you are also not interested in the range factor. Im aware of the cycling issues with the ammunition, also there are fixes for that type of issue as well. If you are talking about 5.56 rounds then yes using 5.56 subsonic ammo is pointless.

---------- Post added at 16:50 ---------- Previous post was at 16:49 ----------

not to mention most 147 grain 9mm ammunition.

When I say no one uses it, I mean operationally. No one in our fighting forces utilizes subsonic rifle ammunition for any application. I can say this with a large degree of certainty due to knowing a few well connected individuals.

Not even our SEALs or CAG use 300 BLK or it's subsonic counterpart. They are testing and evaluating, but as such, that would be a huge difference between 'standard' subsonic ammunition and the special utilization of subsonic 300BLK.

This is ARMA 3 alpha, where they have 7.62 and a made up 6.5 round which I assume is supposed to be 6.5 grendel. I was in such a case generalizing medium caliber rifle cartridges; centering around 7.62x51. In the application of those rounds, subsonic, in real life, is not utilized by our fighting forces. And yes, 5.56 subsonic is even worse than useless for all but the most specific uses.

Edited March 18, 2013 by FiberOpticRabbit

[fiberopticrabbit 1]

Well most .45 ACP rounds are subsonic and there's the continuous argument of heavy slow round vs light fast rounds for pistols.

As to this, yes, i apologize, I was generalizing rifle rounds. As for this 'argument', the only real reason .45 has an advantage is when (usually in a military application) the person does not have access to hollow point rounds in 9mm. Round expansion and velocity of 9mm hollows can more or less trump .45 acp any day, even hollow .45, due to the velocity of 9mm. it's not always about making a hole, it's pushing enough force at the person to cause hydro static shock.

PN11A, my reply was marked as 'awaiting moderation' then disappeared. I'll wait for it to show before typing again.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

ATM, they may be cool in PVP, but practically useless against AI due to no subsonic ammo present. Btw, the default SDAR ammo is subsonic, but there's no silencer for this wep in the game, tho. :cc:

[fiberopticrabbit 1]

"beware of people who speak in absolutes."

You clearly stated that no one uses it, which is false. Im not trying to knock you down or whatever you are thinking. In the situations that those type of rounds are needed to kill bad guys those rounds are used, If you are using that type of round you are also not interested in the range factor. Im aware of the cycling issues with the ammunition, also there are fixes for that type of issue as well. If you are talking about 5.56 rounds then yes using 5.56 subsonic ammo is pointless.

---------- Post added at 16:50 ---------- Previous post was at 16:49 ----------

not to mention most 147 grain 9mm ammunition.

I'll make my reply again, and delete any double.

When I said no one uses subsonic ammo, I mean in the context of ARMA, which is operationally for warfare. No unit in our military uses subsonic rifle ammunition as any sort of standard. I can say this with a certain degree of confidence due to know a few cool people.

As for 300BLK. it's a New, very specific roundl subsonic or not. Our SEALs and CAG are not even utilizing it (yet!). And even in trials, it's always focused on supersonic; it just has more capabilities. Subsonic, even in 300BLK is very situation/mission dependent.

Yes, you are right, I was generalizing common medium caliber rifle rounds. In the alpha, there is 7.62 and some made up 6.5 that I assume to be the mostly now defunct 6.5 grendel. For the purpose of how 7.62x51 (and by extension the in between rounds that are being used for this game) subsonic ammunition is not 'normal'. It is simply not used, especially by common ground soliders/marines.

I'm curious if you goal is to again cut me down for being assertive about what I know, or to help ARMA become more accurate of a simulator.If it's the latter, then perhaps we can agree than when I equip a suppressor my velocity and range should not magicaly decrease, and covering it up with 'well it's subsonic now' is a load of BS. (not saying you are saying this)

Cheers.

[PN11A 2]

When I say no one uses it, I mean operationally. No one in our fighting forces utilizes subsonic rifle ammunition for any application. I can say this with a large degree of certainty due to knowing a few well connected individuals.

Not even our SEALs or CAG use 300 BLK or it's subsonic counterpart. They are testing and evaluating, but as such, that would be a huge difference between 'standard' subsonic ammunition and the special utilization of subsonic 300BLK.

This is ARMA 3 alpha, where they have 7.62 and a made up 6.5 round which I assume is supposed to be 6.5 grendel. I was in such a case generalized medium caliber rifle cartridges; centering around 7.62x51. In the application of those rounds, subsonic, in real life, is not utilized by our fighting forces. And yes, 5.56 subsonic is even worse than useless for all but the most specific uses.

Agreed, and we know alot of the same people. It only bugs me when people speak in absolute about things it wasnt a knock on what you are saying. And operationally I dont count those guys because to an extent they can do alot of things considered non standard. That is where we should end that line of discussion.

[fiberopticrabbit 1]

Agreed, and we know alot of the same people. It only bugs me when people speak in absolute about things it wasnt a knock on what you are saying. And operationally I dont count those guys because to an extent they can do alot of things considered non standard.

I can get behind that. I didn't mean to offense speaking in absolutes. I assumed it would be taken in context. I grow weary of wanton speculation and general falsehoods being stated on this forums about weapons, and I've finally decided to give a crap because I love firearms and I really want to see ARMA come to it's potential as a realistic simulator.

'Bout to go shoot some suppressed 300BLK in about an hour actually :)

[PN11A 2]

its going to take knowledge that should not be "common" to get this game on the right track. If you read through some of these threads some of the things people want to change are ridiculous.

[fiberopticrabbit 1]

I sincerely hope BIS takes note on the suppressor thing. I love shooting suppressed and I was highly disappointed when I got into Alpha. And that they are super long.

[Psychomorph 1]

The videos posted in this thread perfectly illustrate how simple the whole silencer business is. Silencer+supersonic ammo = rather insignificantly more silent than unsilenced, but still has a reduction effect. Silencer+subsonic = as silent as it gets.

Using silencer+supersonic may be of use at night with night vision to remove the flash (I guess suppressors are rather used). Silencer+subsonic should have a clear effect in the game, it is much harder to spot where the sound comes from if near enough (reduces AI's abilty to spot sound sources). On larger distances the sound simply doesn't travel far enough.

So, in a military environment, silencers have their good place.

[/captain obvious]

[fiberopticrabbit 1]

The videos posted in this thread perfectly illustrate how simple the whole silencer business is. Silencer+supersonic ammo = rather insignificantly more silent than unsilenced, but still has a reduction effect. Silencer+subsonic = as silent as it gets.

Using silencer+supersonic may be of use at night with night vision to remove the flash (I guess suppressors are rather used). Silencer+subsonic should have a clear effect in the game, it is much harder to spot where the sound comes from if near enough (reduces AI's abilty to spot sound sources). On larger distances the sound simply doesn't travel far enough.

So, in a military environment, silencers have their good place.

[/captain obvious]

You are missing the point. No one is saying that suppressors don't have their place. They obviously do. All US units that can afford them, us them. All the time.

You appear to making speculation without experience or at least second hand knowledge. Suppressor plus supersonic makes a huge difference. The videos are misleading, I said this before; the video by nature cannot convey concussive quality or the 'carry' that occurs from a normal gunshot, thus making the suppressed rifle sound not much quieter through a video. It needs to be experienced.

The point here is that

a) this is a simulator for real life, not for gaming AI, and subsonic ammunition is incredibly uncommon for military used due to it's inherent limitations, and should be incredibly uncommon in the game and/or not present.

b) The purpose of a suppressor, beside eliminating flash and significantly reducing felt recoil, is to make the sound DIFFERENT, not silent. It IS much quieter, but it is also harder to pinpoint where is came from, and the 'lighter' sound does not carry over distance well.

I think we can all agree that the AIs detection abilities need to be taken down; suppressed or not, but for the purposes of a military simulator, subsonic ammo for GENERAL use should not be a factor. The diver rifle is a completely separate case, and it's subsonic so it can fire underwater.

[Psychomorph 1]

@FiberOpticRabbit:

It came through as if like I meant suppressor with supersonic has no difference. A supersonic crack is obviously much more silent than a bang of expanding gases (plus crack).

I actually meant to say that silenced guns in general have less far traveling sound and it is harder to make out the source of the sound. I'm no excerpt on the subject, like some others are on this forum, and did not mean to act all smart-a**, just wanted to say that there is a very good use for silencers in the game if done right (that includes affecting AI). In fact I think they would be very good, as real life proves their effectivity.

[kocrachon 2]

Watch Zero Dark Thirty, the last 45 minutes, and see why Suppressors are used. Those are how Suppressors sound on an M4. Yes, they are not silent, but when it comes to urban combat, being close to the target so the bullet impacts quickly still helps greatly. Not to mention, subsonic rounds make a night and day difference almost. They give a huge tactical advantage in CQB environments when in hostile territory. Not to mention, it helps make it sound not so much like a gun, which buys you more time when people who don't know what they are hearing, don't respond aggressively like they would if they knew it was a firearm.

[mr_centipede 31]

What's funny is we're discussing about a suppressed weapon sound sample(the sound file), not the config value. So for me, it's kind of trivial really...

[white 1]

Watch Zero Dark Thirty, the last 45 minutes, and see why Suppressors are used. Those are how Suppressors sound on an M4. Yes, they are not silent, but when it comes to urban combat, being close to the target so the bullet impacts quickly still helps greatly. Not to mention, subsonic rounds make a night and day difference almost. They give a huge tactical advantage in CQB environments when in hostile territory. Not to mention, it helps make it sound not so much like a gun, which buys you more time when people who don't know what they are hearing, don't respond aggressively like they would if they knew it was a firearm.

supressors change from 160 to 130 db and subsonic ammo changes another 10-15 db. 110db+ is still pretty loud and way louder than that movie.

consequently, waaaaaay louder than ingame.

[maturin 12]

supressors change from 160 to 130 db and subsonic ammo changes another 10-15 db. 110db+ is still pretty loud and way louder than that movie.

consequently, waaaaaay louder than ingame.

No shit, guns are louder in real life than in the game?

Also, you realize that volume increases exponentially with decibel increase, right? So how much the numbers change doesn't mean much unless you do the math. 45db is a big difference. And similarly, saying that a click is as loud as a jet engine is also meaningless, because the sound has nowhere near the duration and intensity. Gunshots are WAY above the level of volume that destroys your ears, but it takes hundreds of them to do much damage because they are so fleeting.

And no one is defending the suppressed sound effects in the game, so don't bother.

[white 1]

No shit, guns are louder in real life than in the game?

Also, you realize that volume increases exponentially with decibel increase, right? So how much the numbers change doesn't mean much unless you do the math. 45db is a big difference. And similarly, saying that a click is as loud as a jet engine is also meaningless, because the sound has nowhere near the duration and intensity. Gunshots are WAY above the level of volume that destroys your ears, but it takes hundreds of them to do much damage because they are so fleeting.

And no one is defending the suppressed sound effects in the game, so don't bother.

idk, its been like that in arma 2 forever and yeah ive seen people defending it because they like how "stealthy it is".

i understand obviously "110db" is a lot less loud than 160db, but considering 80 is a clap and every 3 db the loudness id doubleb. 110db is still loud as fuck, and that is with subsonic ammo.

[swiftn7 1]

idk, its been like that in arma 2 forever and yeah ive seen people defending it because they like how "stealthy it is".

i understand obviously "110db" is a lot less loud than 160db, but considering 80 is a clap and every 3 db the loudness id doubleb. 110db is still loud as fuck, and that is with subsonic ammo.

[wiseacre]...it's 10dB regarding half/double[/wiseacre]

[white 1]

[wiseacre]...it's 10dB regarding half/double[/wiseacre]

is it?

http://rs.nationalsafetyinc.com/company_79//HP202_Noise_Thermometer.pdf

[max power 21]

+10 decibels is equal to about 3 times larger amplitude and 10 times larger power. So, when you say that a supressor + subsonic ammunition lowers the sound 40 decibels, the sound is 1/81st the amplitude and 1/10000th the power.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Max Power

[white 1]

+10 decibels is equal to about 3 times larger amplitude and 10 times larger power. So, when you say that a supressor + subsonic ammunition lowers the sound 40 decibels, the sound is 1/81st the amplitude and 1/10000th the power.

sure, but 110db is still very loud and easily perceivable by a few hundred meters. you might not realize its a weapon, or what kind. but you will hear it.

[max power 21]

I'm not arguing any point, I'm just illustrating the logarithmic scale.

110 decibels is about twice as loud as a motorcycle, but half as loud as sand blasting, apparently. What they mean by 'a motorcycle', I don't really know.

[swiftn7 1]

is it?

http://rs.nationalsafetyinc.com/company_79//HP202_Noise_Thermometer.pdf

Yes it is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

[max power 21]

Speaking of that national safety link, I wonder where in the hell they found a hair drier that's 4 times louder than a vacuum cleaner, if we're going by their 'doubles every three decibels' rule of thumb. That must be some hair drier, or a hella-weak vacuum.