Taking the scroll menu to the chopping block

[CiberX15 1]

This would remove that terrible anxiety as you're frantically scrolling through an archaic menu just to do an otherwise simple action to evade the enemy/grenade/rabid dog.

Yep. its bad enough when you have to make decisions under pressure. Its even worse when you have to make decisions under pressure and then fight with the controls to make those decisions into actions.

[nodunit 397]

Sooo basicly anything interactable via action command such as a door should be removed from the action menu? Sure I'm for that, yes there is a key to open these things but in such a case that is not the principal of the matter.

The action menu is here to stay, it must..but it could also use a bit of a trimming, ladders and doors, thing like these. I don't know how I feel about the getting into vehicle..yes you could use 1 key to get into a vehicle which will immediately place you in either pilot, gunner (co pilot) and then passenger seat....one could recommend each door have a specific entry point but then people are going to complain about how difficult it is to get into a vehicle in a hot situation.

[Gorbachev 1]

I apologise I've hi-jacked your thread CiberX15 but this is something I strongly believe in.

I hope everyone can approach this in a civil manner as this is a subject which needs discussed and hashed out before it's too late.

....one could recommend each door have a specific entry point but then people are going to complain about how difficult it is to get into a vehicle in a hot situation.

The already have defined access points which require you to stand in a certain spot for driver versus passenger or gunner. If the player is not familiar with the vehicles they're already at the same disadvantage in a tight spot.

[CiberX15 1]

... but that you can also further reiterate your control scheme to match your personal preferences without having to use the scroll menu option at all. All these actions have an alternate context sensitive key dedicated to them which you can also remap. Don't open a SUGGESTION thread than brush off logical replies.

I'm not shooting down logical replies, I am responding to them. Several people here, including the first post and some players I believe to be veterans have stated that the scroll menu could use an overhaul/replacement/removal.

It also doesn't mean we have to adhere to the personal preferences of others. You're driving down the middle of a two-way street.

I am not suggesting we remove the ability to remap controls. You would still be free to map controls however you please so you don't have to adhere to my idea. In fact, if it were a radial menu it might even allow for more customization of the controls by allowing players to place custom commands on the radial.

[nodunit 397]

The already have defined access points which require you to stand in a certain spot for driver versus passenger or gunner. If the player is not familiar with the vehicles they're already at the same disadvantage in a tight spot.

Thats nice and all but unless they are forced to use that method versus the quick to react action menu, what are the chances that they will learn?

In fact, if it were a radial menu it might even allow for more customization of the controls by allowing players to place custom commands on the radial.

Already possible with current action menu, and also can be limited based on what is available. The difference is that the action menu is more or less limitless whereas a radial would have to be divided up for more actions, if it can be.

[CiberX15 1]

I apologise I've hi-jacked your thread CiberX15 but this is something I strongly believe in

Hey no problem, I brought up a problem and a possible solution, you just gave your own solution. The only reason I don't downright agree with your idea is that there are still a few places where multiple choices could be useful. Going back to the truck for example, once you are in the truck how would you switch seats?

[Gorbachev 1]

Thats nice and all but unless they are forced to use that method versus the quick to react action menu, what are the chances that they will learn?

How did anyone learn to play anything in the first place? Dying has driven every gamer to adapt and overcome.. I'm sorry but that seems a bit obvious? Seriously. Even in game right now people are asking how to use the red dot ontop of their scopes. How do this or that. Figuring out which door on a vehicle accesses a part of that vehicle seems like a trivial feat to overcome.

[nodunit 397]

How did anyone learn to play anything in the first place? Dying has driven every gamer to adapt and overcome.. I'm sorry but that seems a bit obvious? Seriously. Even in game right now people are asking how to use the red dot ontop of their scopes. How do this or that. Figuring out which door on a vehicle accesses a part of that vehicle seems like a trivial feat to overcome.

Well sure but that has one control, I just want to see less things in the action menu is all, it gets wierd when you walk into a building and see three "open doors". It's a bit like AI proximity, rummaging around on the air base and opening the AI action menu to see it filled with Open Door. It's odd, less about how to do it and more about "Why its there"... thats my case anyway.

[CiberX15 1]

See I think one of the main issues with the scroll menu is that once its open your stuck until you either pick something or take your hand off the mouse or movement keys and hit backspace. It's like some guy runs up to you and puts a survey in your face and wont let you do anything until you fill it out our shoot him. That's why I suggested the radial menu, if you are not actively holding down the button (telling the game you are ready to make a choice) then there is no menu in your face.

In fact that could be the compromise that makes this work. What if when you hit the space bar it preformed an action as it does now open door, vehicle, etc. If you hold the spacebar it brings up the familiar scroll menu, however, instead of opening and staying open, it will select whatever is highlighted when you release the space bar, with the first option being none. This way we keep the scroll menu but if you start taking fire you can drop it quickly.

[Gorbachev 1]

Well sure but that has one control, I just want to see less things in the action menu is all, it gets wierd when you walk into a building and see three "open doors". It's a bit like AI proximity, rummaging around on the air base and opening the AI action menu to see it filled with Open Door. It's odd.

I completely agree. We are on the same page. I'm not sure where the confusion came from?

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:34 ----------

See I think one of the main issues with the scroll menu is that once its open your stuck until you either pick something or take your hand off the mouse or movement keys and hit backspace. It's like some guy runs up to you and puts a survey in your face and wont let you do anything until you fill it out our shoot him. That's why I suggested the radial menu, if you are not actively holding down the button (telling the game you are ready to make a choice) then there is no menu in your face.

In fact that could be the compromise that makes this work. What if when you hit the space bar it preformed an action as it does now open door, vehicle, etc. If you hold the spacebar it brings up the familiar scroll menu, however, instead of opening and staying open, it will select whatever is highlighted when you release the space bar, with the first option being none. This way we keep the scroll menu but if you start taking fire you can drop it quickly.

Genius. That's actually...... perfect.

PS. Right clicking closes the menu currently, no need to move hands.

[Husker 1]

I completely agree. We are on the same page. I'm not sure where the confusion came from?

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:34 ----------

Genius. That's actually...... perfect.

PS. Right clicking closes the menu currently, no need to move hands.

What i was going to say, you don't need to hit backspace, just right click.

[CiberX15 1]

PS. Right clicking closes the menu currently, no need to move hands.

However, right click is also responsible for zooming and iron sights. two things you want readily available when you spot/are spotted by an enemy.

[Maj. Gastovski 7]

I am not suggesting we remove the ability to remap controls. You would still be free to map controls however you please so you don't have to adhere to my idea.

This just proves to me that you don't have the faintest idea of what my point was. Never did I mention nor express this supposed discontent with such a suggestion.

In fact, if it were a radial menu it might even allow for more customization of the controls by allowing players to place custom commands on the radial.

A radial system wouldn't be any more different in terms of response to actions in-game, unless you're incredibly slow on reaction time. Due to screen real estate and potential UI design it would more likely hinder if anything. You originally stated you just want an interaction key that was context sensitive, and there is one - the ENTER key. Furthermore, you can remap every key except those on the reserved list (which is my only gripe about controls). Basically, you can already achieve a comfortable system for your own personal in-game interaction. People are just simply pointing that out to you.

[Husker 1]

See I think one of the main issues with the scroll menu is that once its open your stuck until you either pick something or take your hand off the mouse or movement keys and hit backspace. It's like some guy runs up to you and puts a survey in your face and wont let you do anything until you fill it out our shoot him. That's why I suggested the radial menu, if you are not actively holding down the button (telling the game you are ready to make a choice) then there is no menu in your face.

In fact that could be the compromise that makes this work. What if when you hit the space bar it preformed an action as it does now open door, vehicle, etc. If you hold the spacebar it brings up the familiar scroll menu, however, instead of opening and staying open, it will select whatever is highlighted when you release the space bar, with the first option being none. This way we keep the scroll menu but if you start taking fire you can drop it quickly.

You say that like the scroll menu is always open.. if your scroll menu is open just right click if you need to close it, don't use back space.

How is holding spacebar a compromise? I believe you like this idea because you believe it's hard to leave the scroll menu once open because you have to hit backspace, but all you have to do is right click. probably takes about the same time to release space bar to exit the scroll menu as it does to right click.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Husker

[Gorbachev 1]

I like it because it doesn't freak out everyone afraid to lose their precious scroll bar to something that actually makes sense. Ciber made a good point though. The menu may still be of use for things like changing seats. that could be bound to a key though, and in that case I'd stand fervently by removing the damned menu completely and utterly. I just have a willingness to compromise if only in the right direction.

Currently, and I know BI knows this and are facing the challenges every day, the menu controls are limiting what they can do with bindings and logical intuitive controls of the game. I know they won't chime in because any opinion on a touchy subject from a dev would result in run away stories about how they're going to butcher their menu. Or I could be completely wrong and they love the menu and think it's an essential crutch. However they see it, that's what it is.

All hands are on the panic button ready and waiting.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Gorbachev

[Husker 1]

I like it because it doesn't freak out everyone afraid to lose their precious scroll bar to something that actually makes sense. Ciber made a good point though. The menu may still be of use for things like changing seats. that could be bound to a key though, and in that case I'd stand fervently by removing the damned menu completely and utterly.

But nothing is being changed, your just holding space, its still a scroll menu.

[CiberX15 1]

How does holding spacebar a compromise? I believe you like this idea because you believe it's hard to leave the scroll menu once open because you have to hit backspace, but all you have to do is right click. probably takes about the same time to release space bar to exit the scroll menu as it does to right click.

Well, holding/releasing space dose not require me to do anything with the fingers responsible for movement, aiming, and firing. While right click works, you would have to click it twice, once to get out of the menu, and once to aim. whereas if you released space, you could be doing that at the same time, it streamlines the process.

[Husker 1]

Well, holding/releasing space dose not require me to do anything with the fingers responsible for movement, aiming, and firing. While right click works, you would have to click it twice, once to get out of the menu, and once to aim. whereas if you released space, you could be doing that at the same time, it streamlines the process.

Releasing spacebar + clicking right click = Two Actions.

Double Clicking Right Click = Two Actions.

Seems just as streamlined to me.

However if they want to make it so you can select in the options to make it toggleable or not then by all means.

But I don't see them doing this.

[CiberX15 1]

But nothing is being changed, your just holding space, its still a scroll menu.

It requires less button presses to get there. As it is now you need to hit space to open the menu scroll and then hit space again. Also by holding space you are talking to the game, telling it that you are ready to make a decision now. Pressing space is just telling the game that you are going to make a decision.

[Gorbachev 1]

FACEPALM.

I'm done with this thread. We've made a monster. Kill it. Kill it with fire.

[Husker 1]

It requires less button presses to get there. As it is now you need to hit space to open the menu scroll and then hit space again. Also by holding space you are talking to the game, telling it that you are ready to make a decision now. Pressing space is just telling the game that you are going to make a decision.

Well let's look at this situation.

If the only way to open and close the menu is by holding space to open, then releasing to choose a selection, and you're holding it because you're about to make a selection, but then in the corner of your eye you spot an enemy, now you told the game you're ready to make a selection, and the only two selections you have are reload and change to pistol, but now you want to cancel the selection but you can't because you have to release spacebar to do so, but that is either going to reload or take out your pistol either way you're dead.

Current set up, I want to take out my pistol, i roll the scroll wheel to open the menu and highlight the pistol, but before hitting spacebar to select i notice an enemy in the corner of my eye, i right click to close the menu, nothing is selected i still have my rifle out and now I'm ready to fire, I right click to zero in on him and i kill him.

Which one sounds better to you?

P.S. Spacebar isn't the only way to open the menu, simply scrolling with the wheel will open it, which is how I do it. basically everything involved with the scroll menu is done on my mouse.

[CiberX15 1]

Releasing spacebar + clicking right click = Two Actions.

Double Clicking Right Click = Two Actions.

Seems just as streamlined to me.

However if they want to make it so you can select in the options to make it toggleable or not then by all means.

But I don't see them doing this.

Because of intuitive controls. Think of playing a game for the first time. A new game, not ArmA. You hit the E key and you sit down in a chair. Now what would your first guess be to get out of that chair? you would hit E again right? Now imagine you are playing a game and you hit space bar. a menu comes up. you don't want the menu so you hit spacebar again. The menu does not go away, it looks like you just switched weapons? Space bar is the switch weapons key? So then your near a door and you want to switch weapons and you hit space bar and instead you open the door. Now you are really confused. Eventually they will learn that right click breaks out of the menu and that it is in fact an action menu. Then they will have to train themselves to learn thos buttons, and it will take a while because their natural reaction will be that the spacebar opens menu so spacebar should close menu. Holding and releasing spacebar is easy for a player to understand. Its simple cause and effect, its induitive. you don't need to look up the controls to figure it out. That's what good UI developers should be aiming for.

---------- Post added at 02:09 ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 ----------

I'm done with this thread. We've made a monster. Kill it. Kill it with fire.

You know what sir? You might be right. X P

[Husker 1]

Because of intuitive controls. Think of playing a game for the first time. A new game, not ArmA. You hit the E key and you sit down in a chair. Now what would your first guess be to get out of that chair? you would hit E again right? Now imagine you are playing a game and you hit space bar. a menu comes up. you don't want the menu so you hit spacebar again. The menu does not go away, it looks like you just switched weapons? Space bar is the switch weapons key? So then your near a door and you want to switch weapons and you hit space bar and instead you open the door. Now you are really confused. Eventually they will learn that right click breaks out of the menu and that it is in fact an action menu. Then they will have to train themselves to learn thos buttons, and it will take a while because their natural reaction will be that the spacebar opens menu so spacebar should close menu. Holding and releasing spacebar is easy for a player to understand. Its simple cause and effect, its induitive. you don't need to look up the controls to figure it out. That's what good UI developers should be aiming for.

---------- Post added at 02:09 ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 ----------

You know what sir? You might be right. X P

Well let's look at this situation.

If the only way to open and close the menu is by holding space to open, then releasing to choose a selection, and you're holding it because you're about to make a selection, but then in the corner of your eye you spot an enemy, now you told the game you're ready to make a selection, and the only two selections you have are reload and change to pistol, but now you want to cancel the selection but you can't because you have to release spacebar to do so, but that is either going to reload or take out your pistol either way you're dead.

Current set up, I want to take out my pistol, i roll the scroll wheel to open the menu and highlight the pistol, but before hitting spacebar to select i notice an enemy in the corner of my eye, i right click to close the menu, nothing is selected i still have my rifle out and now I'm ready to fire, I right click to zero in on him and i kill him.

Which one sounds better to you?

P.S. Spacebar isn't the only way to open the menu, simply scrolling with the wheel will open it, which is how I do it. basically everything involved with the scroll menu is done on my mouse.

Then they will have to train themselves to learn thos buttons

Saying they have to train themselves to right click to close the menu is like saying they have to train themselves to left click to shoot their weapon.

Regardless, every game you play you have to accustom yourself to it's controls.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Husker

[Gorbachev 1]

You know what sir? You might be right. X P

It was good while it lasted. It takes a special type of complete and utter lack of imagination to not see how this could work.

[Husker 1]

It was good while it lasted. It takes a special type of complete and utter lack of imagination to not see how this could work.

Because insulting somebody is the best way to get your point across.

This solution would not work, because the only way to get out of the menu is to release spacebar and select something, sometimes I open the action menu and I can exit it with right click, without choosing anything. Have the Hold spacebar solution would not provide such a thing, because you would have to actually highlight something and release spacebar to close the menu thus selecting something that I didn't feel like selecting anymore.

Plus I'm not against the idea if they want to add it along side the scroll menu so people can choose if they want to old space bar or just press it.

But I guess if you want to be a complete jerk and utterly forget everything about what it's like to show someone respect then that works too.

Stick to Call of Duty, you do can everything you want by simply pressing E, and have zero freedom over your controls and actions.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Husker