Balancing?

[Zacho 0]

Think its using this. http://www.impactguns.com/kriss-super-v-magex-g30-extension-kit-to-30-rounds-acmek0800101.aspx

But yes, glad to see they are hearing us. :D

[dmarkwick 261]

: ok checked configs for both NLAW and RPG32

Same max effective range, same dispersion, same optics zoom, same weapon lock delay, same settings for AI, same amount of light on firing even. And of course a trifle like exactly the same optics.

But wait - their rockets gotta be different, right?

Same air friction, same speed, same thrust etc. except RPG32 rocket deals whopping 5% more damage.

I guess AI isn't on par with the player yet and nature haven't balanced itself for now either so must make opfor and blufor launchers exactly the same weapon with a different 3d model.

I just verified one of the changelog items: on dev branch the GM6 Lynx rate of fire is noticeably faster than before and faster than the (current) M320 LRR rate of fire, and it's now distinctly not-a-mirror.

Also, for the thread that was locked re: the ACP-C2, both the Vermin SBR and ACP-C2 using 9 mm were marked as known issues, albeit ACP-C2 is marked as "should use .45 ACP" while Vermin SBR was marked as merely "wrong ammo description" -- that being 9 mm -- with the claim that it already does use .45 ACP, so I guess BI decided that in 2035 there was a thirty-round .45 ACP mag? (Since the longest I'm aware of in the real-world is the UMP 45's twenty-five-rounder.)

The conclusion we might draw from this is that configs were copy-pasted from one to the other and released before tweakage.

[TSAndrey 1]

If you are going to talk about real balancing, pistols are underpowered. They have too much recoil and too little damage. It takes a whole mag to take a guy down! The same problem was in Arma 2, where pistols were useless! I thought this game was supposed to be realistic...

[gossamersolid 155]

If you are going to talk about real balancing, pistols are underpowered. They have too much recoil and too little damage. It takes a whole mag to take a guy down! The same problem was in Arma 2, where pistols were useless! I thought this game was supposed to be realistic...

Yeah, I think a lot of people have noticed this.

Pistols need to be stronger because they are basically a waste of inventory space right now.

[chortles 263]

Think its using this. http://www.impactguns.com/kriss-super-v-magex-g30-extension-kit-to-30-rounds-acmek0800101.aspx

How convenient that literally every Vermin SBR magazine on both Stratis and Altis has one, and that literally every supplied magazine from overseas for BLUFOR -- and OPFOR Recon -- was retrofitted with one. :p

If you are going to talk about real balancing, pistols are underpowered. They have too much recoil and too little damage. It takes a whole mag to take a guy down! The same problem was in Arma 2, where pistols were useless! I thought this game was supposed to be realistic...

Remember that right now every pistol is in 9 mm but only the Vermin SBR (the SMG) was said to be "using .45 ACP, just mislabeled" while the ACP-C2 "should be using .45 ACP, but isn't"... so if the devs are in fact planning a caliber-conversion to .45 ACP, we'll have to see what that looks like coming out of a 1911 (instead of a SMG) before judging all pistols as opposed to just 9 x 21 mm (our only option thusfar from BI).

The conclusion we might draw from this is that configs were copy-pasted from one to the other and released before tweakage.

I will note though that in this case the Vermin SBR was among the first two SMGs from BI but the above caveat (vs. the ACP-C2) applies, so has anyone (else besides RobertHammer) cracked through the configs on it or its magazine vs. those of the Scorpion EVO-4?

[byku 13]

FYI - SBR - 2 hits to the chest to kill a guy, 9mm pistol - 5 shots. The question is: is it because .45 ACP has wrong name(9mm), or because they've gave the SBR some unrealistic characteristic(so the power of weapon is not relevant to the used ammunition, but the weapon itself).

About handguns - good topic: http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xdtalk-chatter-box/42069-survival-rate-handgun-shots.html

Unfortunately not exactly effective, just handy.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Byku

[chortles 263]

With the SBR they definitely seemed to state "wrong name" in the sense of the description, but the real-world weapon does have half an inch more barrel length (or one and a half inches more depending on model) than a "standard dimensions" M1911A1 ("standard dimensions" here meaning "with a five inch barrel"). The thing is that we don't have a .45 ACP pistol from BI to compare against.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Chortles

[-Coulum- 35]

Well the GM6 has had its speeds tweaked. Maybe we just need to be more patient. Its alright to point out problms but maybe accusing BI of doing this or that should be held off until they are actually finished. (Would be nice if they could communicate a bit better if things are still WIP or complete though)

[Varanon 892]

Its alright to point out problms but maybe accusing BI of doing this or that should be held off until they are actually finished.

Problem with staying silent until it's finished is that if it's done, it's done. The alpha/beta is for feedback (can't stress that enough), and that includes criticism as well as praises. Of course, any criticism has to stay civil, but what good is a feedback phase if you stay silent and complain after things are done ?

(Would be nice if they could communicate a bit better if things are still WIP or complete though)

Fully agree to that!

[metalcraze 290]

I just verified one of the changelog items: on dev branch the GM6 Lynx rate of fire is noticeably faster than before and faster than the (current) M320 LRR rate of fire, and it's now distinctly not-a-mirror.

Yes because people complained for many weeks.

Also, for the thread that was locked re: the ACP-C2, both the Vermin SBR and ACP-C2 using 9 mm were marked as known issues

Also because people started to complain.

However the good solution will be not to ruin the game with "balance" in the first place so instead of us complaining here about stuff being broken on purpose we can spend our posting time on a lot more useful suggestions on how to improve the rest of the game.

But it's kinda hard when one patch sets one thing right and "balances" another.

Well the GM6 has had its speeds tweaked. Maybe we just need to be more patient. Its alright to point out problms but maybe accusing BI of doing this or that should be held off until they are actually finished

Hell no. It was tweaked because of people in this thread. Remember the issue was closed and refused to be fixed in the first place with "balance" as an excuse. If we would've been silent, it would just disappear under hundreds of other issues at FT.

Do you really think they've mirrored RPG32 and NLAW as a "WIP" change? Why waste time if you can just type in RL values and be done with it with zero complaints.

Edited June 26, 2013 by metalcraze

[-Coulum- 35]

Problem with staying silent until it's finished is that if it's done, it's done. The alpha/beta is for feedback (can't stress that enough), and that includes criticism as well as praises. Of course, any criticism has to stay civil, but what good is a feedback phase if you stay silent and complain after things are done ?

Hell no. It was tweaked because of people in this thread. Remember the issue was closed and refused to be fixed in the first place with "balance" as an excuse. If we would've been silent, it would just disappear under hundreds of other issues at FT.

Do you really think they've mirrored RPG32 and NLAW as a "WIP" change? Why waste time if you can just type in RL values and be done with it with zero complaints.

You guys misunderstand what I meant. Don't stop giving feed back and fighting for what you want, just don't be so quick to say "BIS YOU BACKSTABBING BACKSTABERS YOU BETRAYED TEH COMMUNITY!". That's all.

Fully agree to that!

Yeah I think alot of unproductive discussion and hysterics could be avoided if devs just communicated their intent and progress more. Their better than most, but I am also participating in the Insurgency alpha (came out around the same time as a3 alpha) and I have to say that the dev communication is many times better and you can really see how it benefits. But I think that BIS devs may be a bit hesitant because communication sometimes involves bad news and we seem to be very bad at handling that.

[Varanon 892]

"BIS YOU BACKSTABBING BACKSTABERS YOU BETRAYED TEH COMMUNITY!".

I never called them that, and I haven't seen a lot of people actually do that. Sometimes discussions get heated, but it also shows how much everyone here cares about their favorite game.

Yeah I think alot of unproductive discussion and hysterics could be avoided if devs just communicated their intent and progress more. Their better than most, but I am also participating in the Insurgency alpha (came out around the same time as a3 alpha) and I have to say that the dev communication is many times better and you can really see how it benefits. But I think that BIS devs may be a bit hesitant because communication sometimes involves bad news and we seem to be very bad at handling that.

Indeed. We usually don't know if we try to run in open doors, or steel enforced concrete walls.

[-Coulum- 35]

I never called them that, and I haven't seen a lot of people actually do that. Sometimes discussions get heated, but it also shows how much everyone here cares about their favorite game.

Not saying you or anyone for that matter said that. But I sure know I was thinking it.

We usually don't know if we try to run in open doors, or steel enforced concrete walls.

I think I got the meaning of that anology... Then again maybe not.

[chortles 263]

I never called them that, and I haven't seen a lot of people actually do that. Sometimes discussions get heated, but it also shows how much everyone here cares about their favorite game.

Puh-lease, that sentiment was one of the first things I saw in this thread, was reeking of "devs can do no right".

But I think that BIS devs may be a bit hesitant because communication sometimes involves bad news and we seem to be very bad at handling that.

This is exactly what it feels like.

[dmarkwick 261]

It was tweaked because of people in this thread. Remember the issue was closed and refused to be fixed in the first place with "balance" as an excuse. If we would've been silent, it would just disappear under hundreds of other issues at FT.

This happened only in your own mind.

Do you really think they've mirrored RPG32 and NLAW as a "WIP" change? Why waste time if you can just type in RL values and be done with it with zero complaints.

I still think its more likely that the configs for similar weapons were simply copy-pasted (copy-pasting is the preferred method for endless config entries :)) and now the tweaking begins.

[Varanon 892]

Puh-lease, that sentiment was one of the first things I saw in this thread, was reeking of "devs can do no right".

Which part of "not a lot" didn't you get ?

[Variable 322]

But I think that BIS devs may be a bit hesitant because communication sometimes involves bad news and we seem to be very bad at handling that.

That's dramatizing. All the critique that was placed here was valid and legit.

This happened only in your own mind.

Yeah? how can you tell? You are not BIS and please don't speak as if you know the reasons behind their actions. Given that the change was made after the feedback here there's a good reason to believe it had effect.

[dmarkwick 261]

Yeah? how can you tell? You are not BIS and please don't speak as if you know the reasons behind their actions. Given that the change was made after the feedback here there's a good reason to believe it had effect.

I presume by your lack of a similar rebuke to metalcraze that you have absolutely no problem at all with him speaking on BIS behalf.

"A good reason"? Sounds like my reason was every bit as "good", therefore it MUST be the case. Somehow. But, you know, some people like to assume the worst motives.

Edited June 27, 2013 by DMarkwick

[Masharra 10]

But I think that BIS devs may be a bit hesitant because communication sometimes involves bad news and we seem to be very bad at handling that.

Then they need to pull up their big girl panties and stop trying to be nice to everyone. see steam announcement.

If they are aiming for the big time they better start growing thick skin.

They are part of a multimillion dollar company. They do not need white nights so much as competent public speakers. Who I would like to think they have as I have seen gems unfortunately those gems are rarer than Mario getting some from Peach.

[pettka 694]

Yeah? how can you tell? You are not BIS and please don't speak as if you know the reasons behind their actions. Given that the change was made after the feedback here there's a good reason to believe it had effect.

DMarwick is actually right :icon_twisted:

[chortles 263]

DMarwick is actually right :icon_twisted:

About what?

If it helps, again and as was noted earlier in this thread, so much of the confusion and readiness to resort to worst-case-scenario thinking comes from lack of clarity/official information as to what's known-placeholder-that's-obviously-not-intentional-but-hey-it's-there-because-we-wanted-this-released-more-than-we-wanted-it-right and what's WIP-but-intentional (i.e. "going in the intended direction", i.e. how RiE described grenades to GameSpot earlier this year soon after public alpha release).

[Varanon 892]

If it helps, again and as was noted earlier in this thread, so much of the confusion and readiness to resort to worst-case-scenario thinking comes from lack of clarity/official information as to what's known-placeholder-that's-obviously-not-intentional-but-hey-it's-there-because-we-wanted-this-released-more-than-we-wanted-it-right and what's WIP-but-intentional (i.e. "going in the intended direction", i.e. how RiE described grenades to GameSpot earlier this year soon after public alpha release).

For once, I 100 % agree with what you say

[Alwarren 2767]

It all bolis down to lack of communication then? 38 pages of complains and discussions could be dismissed with a simple statement like "We've just copy-pasted the stuff and will tweak values later". If that is the case, why didn't you say that on page 2?

[Masharra 10]

DMarwick is actually right :icon_twisted:

Notably not a gem. My preferred response "Sorry for the confusion guys! To speed up some menial things we are copy pasting a lot. While you shouldnt hesitate to point them out (incase we miss them) know that there isn't some zany plot to make things balanced. Also sorry we couldn't communicate earlier we are busy as shit here :icon_twisted:"

[chortles 263]

Somehow I'm not sure that pettka was trying to say any of that... hence why he said what he said instead. :p Then again:

there isn't some zany plot to make things balanced.

After all the earlier talk about 'Task Force Balance' maybe someone thought it would have been a waste of time to say this because the complainers wouldn't believe 'im anyway because they were already predisposed to worst-case-scenario thinking? ;)