The ultimate thread about Arma 3 anti-cheat discussion

[WalkerDown 1]

We seem to be talking about two different things. I am referring to the server-side filters introduced last August, such as publicvariable.txt - when something is sent from a client to the server (for example via publicVariable or setVehicleInit+processInitCommands), there is simply no way not to "leave a trace". The script filters will kick in no matter what, because they are server-side and the server has to process the command before it can be broadcast to other clients. You seem to be referring to the old script detection (scripts.txt) which is obviously far less secure since it is scanning on the client side. I wouldn't even bother with that anymore.

Hmm.. nope, i'm referring to the possibility of running a script (or just function) without leaving traces in any BE filters logs.. this is how the cheats operates (or to be exact this is the "bypass" part of the cheat). If you leave no traces, the filters cannot operate for obvious reason (here comes in play the traditional anti-cheat... but assuming that the anti-cheat is capable of find and recognize the bypass code). So yes, i can "createweapon" without leaving any trace of the function call.

[maddogx 13]

Hmm.. nope, i'm referring to the possibility of running a script (or just function) without leaving traces in any BE filters logs.. this is how the cheats operates (or to be exact this is the "bypass" part of the cheat). If you leave no traces, the filters cannot operate for obvious reason (here comes in play the traditional anti-cheat... but assuming that the anti-cheat is capable of find and recognize the bypass code). So yes, i can "createweapon" without leaving any trace of the function call.

Yeah, still local.

[TSAndrey 1]

Hmm.. nope, i'm referring to the possibility of running a script (or just function) without leaving traces in any BE filters logs.. this is how the cheats operates (or to be exact this is the "bypass" part of the cheat). If you leave no traces, the filters cannot operate for obvious reason (here comes in play the traditional anti-cheat... but assuming that the anti-cheat is capable of find and recognize the bypass code). So yes, i can "createweapon" without leaving any trace of the function call.

Normal BE bypasses still leave RE traces in logs. RE bypasses on the other hand mostly don't, but AFAIK RE bypasses are based on mod/server exploits, not BE exploits.

[awesomeddd 10]

I still do not know why no one able to block weapon spawning in ArmA. Is it too hard to write addWeapon command block in filters or maybe I miss something?

[Dwarden 1125]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?138736-Introducing-Server-side-Event-Logging-Blocking&p=2364961&viewfull=1#post2364961

^ just small sample how we & BE don't care about security of old OA {yes that's irony for these who don't get it}

[WalkerDown 1]

I still do not know why no one able to block weapon spawning in ArmA. Is it too hard to write addWeapon command block in filters or maybe I miss something?

It's how the script in ArmA works today, it's the client that "spawn" stuff, and the server accepts it: if you drop a weapon, that weapon gets "created" for me to pick up; now if i create a weapon using a cheat, the server doesn't know if it's legit (ie: because someone else have dropped it) or if a cheater created it (without leaving traces in the log).

That's why (in my opinion) they should consider to review this approach, and redesign the script engine, since it's "old" and it doesn't take accounts of possible cheaters (it wasn't a problem in the previous arma title because of the hardcore/niche nature; today it is a a AAA title, and there's much more casual players and cheaters... we had an anticipation with DayZ).

[byrgesen 1]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?138736-Introducing-Server-side-Event-Logging-Blocking&p=2364961&viewfull=1#post2364961

^ just small sample how we & BE don't care about security of old OA {yes that's irony for these who don't get it}

The perfect time to throw that in here mate ;)

Thats exactly what i was talking about before, time and money = better protection, but it does take some time.

And its nice to see we get more filters. We need all we can get, eventually we will have a filter for every single action in the entire game.

@walker

I see your point mate, but tbh they "just" need to make filters that can see if you actually drop the weapon or you spawn it via a command. I believe its possible and it will happen in the future, just a matter of developing it enough and they got so much more time and money to do it now :)

I dont think they need to change anything fundamental in the game, just the way BE interacts with it and give BE more power over the player.

And there has to be a way to distinguish between a spawn command and a drop command tbh, it cant be true its exactly the same in every single case.

But Arma is still a niche game, they are so far from any mainstream developer on sales and its like nothing else out there. Yes III is alot more popular, but essentially its the same game as II, with a fancy graphic render on top.

Just look at this maximum number of Arma III players today was 3961, where as skyrim, black ops, CS:GO and CS:S are around 25-35k, even the old CS is over 40k a day. Team fortress is over 50k, so arma is very much still a niche game in my opinion.

Theres actually less people playing Arma III then Arma II.

[chortles 263]

That's why (in my opinion) they should consider to review this approach, and redesign the script engine, since it's "old" and it doesn't take accounts of possible cheaters (it wasn't a problem in the previous arma title because of the hardcore/niche nature; today it is a a AAA title, and there's much more casual players and cheaters... we had an anticipation with DayZ).

As someone who was around for the Steamworks announcement and was following development along the way at least a bit before E3 of last year... let me tell you right now: It is far, far too late for Arma 3.

Is it old? Yes. Is it however so much the foundation behind the engine -- that is to say, a foundation set in stone and built upon before DayZ -- that BI would basically have to rebuild the game from scratch, essentially canceling the game? Also yes. As the Steamworks announcement basically implied regarding the pace of development, the CEO had essentially set a deadline and they were out of time. They couldn't stop to have non-Steamworks versions, why do you believe that they would stop for this?

Edited April 5, 2013 by Chortles

[Mirudes 1]

As someone who was around for the Steamworks announcement and was following development along the way at least a bit before E3 of last year... let me tell you right now: It is far, far too late for Arma 3.

Is it old? Yes. Is it however so much the foundation behind the engine -- that is to say, a foundation set in stone and built upon before DayZ -- that BI would basically have to rebuild the game from scratch, essentially canceling the game? Also yes. As the Steamworks announcement basically implied regarding the pace of development, the CEO had essentially set a deadline and they were out of time. They couldn't stop to have non-Steamworks versions, why do you believe that they would stop for this?

What do you believe, is the purpose of a Alpha release?

This is what Wikipedia knows about Software release life cycle:

The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete.

ArmA3 will not be "feature complete" at the end of the Alpha-stage.

When even BIS is tapping in the dark, you should not claim here that you know anything more about the game than others.

[TSAndrey 1]

Theres actually less people playing Arma III then Arma II.

Arma 3 is in Alpha, with almost no content. Why would people play it over Arma 2? They tried it out, played the showcases, tried out a bit of MP and returned to Arma 2. It's actually suprising how many people got the Alpha

[byrgesen 1]

Arma 3 is in Alpha, with almost no content. Why would people play it over Arma 2? They tried it out, played the showcases, tried out a bit of MP and returned to Arma 2. It's actually suprising how many people got the Alpha

True, was just proving it is a niche game and it has far less players then any mainstream game :)

Even though its one of the best selling games on steam, it cant match the others.

And since Arma III is steam exclusive its a very usefull statistic, tons of people have hard copies of Arma II aswell, so thats not in the statistic, as well as many other games that arent steam exclusive.

Yet almost all other mainstream games have more players on steam then Arma III.

@mirudes, how do you know it will not be "feature complete" in the end of alpha? Got a source for that statement? Do you know if BI will be using Perpetual Beta?

Ohh forgot to mention, it does say "usually ends with feature freeze", so one could argue an alpha doesnt have to end with all features being there, if they make a Perpetual Beta Release.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Byrgesen

[maddogx 13]

What do you believe, is the purpose of a Alpha release?

ArmA3 will not be "feature complete" at the end of the Alpha-stage.

When even BIS is tapping in the dark, you should not claim here that you know anything more about the game than others.

It doesn't take intimate knowledge of BI's internal development plans to know that the current scripting engine isn't going away. All the example content (showcases and MP missions) so far has been built with it, the documentation of scripting commands has been updated with modders and mission makers being specifically pointed toward it, and BI themselves have previously made it clear that SQF will not be dropped for Arma3. They may add some additional functionality on top of it (for example Java), but removing SQF is next to impossible at this point.

And you can believe me when I say I am probably even more disappointed about this than you are. I hate the current scripting engine/language with a burning passion.

[gossamersolid 155]

Arma 3 is in Alpha, with almost no content. Why would people play it over Arma 2? They tried it out, played the showcases, tried out a bit of MP and returned to Arma 2. It's actually suprising how many people got the Alpha

Some of us are actually using the Alpha for good reasons:

- Testing to find bugs so they can be possibly resolved

- Working on missions slated for A3 Beta/Release

- Porting Mods or making new ones

Also a lot of people bought the alpha simply because you save quite a bit of money if you buy it now rather than later.

Also onto the inventory commands only working client-side, I'd like to see them work on server-side so we can setup script filters in BE when it comes out. Then we can help reduce the amount of ways script kiddies can spawn in weapons.

[chortles 263]

It doesn't take intimate knowledge of BI's internal development plans to know that the current scripting engine isn't going away. All the example content (showcases and MP missions) so far has been built with it, the documentation of scripting commands has been updated with modders and mission makers being specifically pointed toward it, and BI themselves have previously made it clear that SQF will not be dropped for Arma3. They may add some additional functionality on top of it (for example Java), but removing SQF is next to impossible at this point.

This is pretty much what I meant by "it's way, way too late", and devs have expressed caution to people about how many dependencies everything has on each other... think of Arma 3 like a Jenga tower; by the time anti-cheat was being publicly thought of as a critical concern thanks to the post-DayZ-release period, the "foundation" had already been built upon for over a year. Edited April 5, 2013 by Chortles

[WalkerDown 1]

Btw what's the plan? How long we have to wait for an anti-cheat? I'm not blaming.. it's a question: i've tried to play again today after weeks to ceck the situation, and guess what? Mass server kill within the first 30 minutes. :)

[TSAndrey 1]

Btw what's the plan? How long we have to wait for an anti-cheat? I'm not blaming.. it's a question: i've tried to play again today after weeks to ceck the situation, and guess what? Mass server kill within the first 30 minutes. :)

Once the servers are finished? Beta/retail? Why so impatient...

[WalkerDown 1]

Once the servers are finished? Beta/retail? Why so impatient...

Beta... and Retail? Do you wanna launch a game without even testing the anti-cheat? No thanks, we need it asap.

Why so impatient? 3 weeks ago we had 10k players online, tonite (while im writing this post) they are 1102 (barely the 10%), this is due to many factors: bad performance + lack of contents *AND* cheaters/hackers all around.

[RuecanOnRails 10]

Beta... and Retail? Do you wanna launch a game without even testing the anti-cheat? No thanks, we need it asap.

Why so impatient? 3 weeks ago we had 10k players online, tonite (while im writing this post) they are 1102 (barely the 10%), this is due to many factors: bad performance + lack of contents *AND* cheaters/hackers all around.

The "hacking" is not the reason why less people are playing. It may factor in slightly, but definitely not the main reason. The initial allure of the alpha has come and gone, many are back playing arma 2 with clans and coming back to arma 3 every so often. There's also been a couple other games released that I'm sure others might be playing. I know I'm playing less than I was a few weeks ago, not because of performance, hacks, or lack of content. I'm playing less because my limited free time is being used up with other various projects.

The game not only can, but SHOULD wait until full release for an anti cheat. the game code changes too frequently right now. Implementing an anti cheat will cause more problems than it would solve with false bans and glitches and slower development time. Wait until the game code becomes stable, optimized, and free of major bugs before adding anti-cheat. We do not need it asap. adding it now will delay game development and push back further launch delays.

[gossamersolid 155]

Beta... and Retail? Do you wanna launch a game without even testing the anti-cheat? No thanks, we need it asap.

Why so impatient? 3 weeks ago we had 10k players online, tonite (while im writing this post) they are 1102 (barely the 10%), this is due to many factors: bad performance + lack of contents *AND* cheaters/hackers all around.

Holy shit, how many times does it have to be repeated? It will be released when it's released.

We have much more important things to get first such as actual dedicated server binaries. Right now we're all running steam versions of the client on our server boxes with hacky fixes applied to make it even viable to run.

[$able 2]

The game not only can, but SHOULD wait until full release for an anti cheat. the game code changes too frequently right now. Implementing an anti cheat will cause more problems than it would solve with false bans and glitches and slower development time. Wait until the game code becomes stable, optimized, and free of major bugs before adding anti-cheat. We do not need it asap. adding it now will delay game development and push back further launch delays.

From experience I can say that this is not really true. There have always been bugs and the game (A2/OA) has constantly been updated and this never really caused problems anti-cheat-wise.

[Mirudes 1]

One reason, why cheaters starts to play with cheats: They say, even the admins on the servers are cheating!

[WalkerDown 1]

The "hacking" is not the reason why less people are playing.

It's ONE of the factors, please read a post before replying.

the game code changes too frequently right now. Implementing an anti cheat will cause more problems than it would solve with false bans and glitches and slower development time. Wait until the game code becomes stable, optimized, and free of major bugs before adding anti-cheat. We do not need it asap. adding it now will delay game development and push back further launch delays.

This isn't true, adding BE doesn't depends by the "code to change", the scripting filtering part and the remote console doesn't have (almost) nothing to do with the core code.

However i didn't asked: WHY THE F* YOU ARE NOT ADDING IT RIGHT NOW? I've asked something else: WHEN IT IS PLANNED .... ?

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------

Holy shit, how many times does it have to be repeated? It will be released when it's released.

So this company doesn't have a plan? They doesn't even know when BE could be deployed? It must be the first game company of not having a GDD or a workflow, in my experience you have deadlines set and you know (several months before) what you're supposed to do in the next year or so, you can move deadlines but you do not develop a game without knowing what you'll do "tomorro".. unless you're an amateur (and i don't think BIS is a bunch of amateurs). So again (to BIS), the question: when you plan to deploy BE?

[HunterUK 10]

WalkerDown m8, its no use to be honest you can go blue in the face with them here its not worth it. your quite right in what you are saying.

[TSAndrey 1]

So this company doesn't have a plan? They doesn't even know when BE could be deployed? It must be the first game company of not having a GDD or a workflow, in my experience you have deadlines set and you know (several months before) what you're supposed to do in the next year or so, you can move deadlines but you do not develop a game without knowing what you'll do "tomorro".. unless you're an amateur (and i don't think BIS is a bunch of amateurs). So again (to BIS), the question: when you plan to deploy BE?

"When it's ready" - Dwarden

[dm 9]

So this company doesn't have a plan?

They have a plan, they have more than one plan infact. What makes you think you are so special as to deserve knowing what this plan is and what timescale it works on?

They have announced more than enough info: Alpha now, Beta in Q2 (so: summer) and full release around the end of the year (probably just in time for xmas). Additions to alpha are happening every day. If they feel the need to introduce BE at some point they will.