Overthrow your government

[Longinius 1]

"So if you have moral objections to serving the government (for what ever reason) you wouldnt get to vote and you would be, for all intents and porpuses, voiceless."

If you have objections to serving the society you live in then you shouldnt have the right to vote. Since federal service include military-, medical-, scientific-, industrial- and civilservice anyone can contribute to society, wether they like the current regime or not. Then, after two years, they can vote. If you are not willing to work with and for your fellow citizens, what is the point in voting in the first place.

"This way the system in effect stifels all negative sounds and you are left with, what boils down to, a totalitarian system."

Not at all. You can do the service even if you disagree with the current government. Then when you have proven yourself you can enter politics and change the system. You still have a shot.

"Sorry if im not all that enthousiastic about it. The beauty of democracy is that everyone can vote and influence the system wether you supported the last government or not."

I would call this the flaw of democracy. Some people simply are not envolved / intelligent / caring enough to vote. Yet they vote anyway, out of tradition. And then they spoil the entire process because they havent voted on politics, but on parties. Out of habit. That is not how the system was intended to function, I am sure.

"Heinlich's way only allows people who are for the current government get to vote. Not my kind of system."

Heinlein...Heinlich is the guy that saves you when choking on your food. That system gives those that are truly interested in society, government and politics a chance to vote. No matter if you support the current bunch of politicians or not. Noone can prevent you from doing the service period just because of your opinions.

[Supah 0]

Well it looks like we disagree then If i would hate a government enough i would not wish to serve it for a matter of two days let alone two years no matter what they would have me do. If i wanted to be a soldier id have joined the army, if i wanted to work with the elderly i would have chosen a different education. Which path i chose is mine to chose. Being cohersed into doing things by a government who would deny me the right to vote if i dont go along with them is not something i would react favourably too. If the netherlands comes to that i will gladly emmigrate the hell out of here.

[Longinius 1]

"Well it looks like we disagree then"

Yep

"If i would hate a government enough i would not wish to serve it for a matter of two days let alone two years no matter what they would have me do."

And if you hate a goverment with the current system we have in the western world, do you really think you could change ANYTHING unless you changed it from within? Doubtful. We all see how well the extreme left and right wing organisations have failed in their attempts to force change through being discontent.

"If i wanted to be a soldier id have joined the army, if i wanted to work with the elderly i would have chosen a different education. Which path i chose is mine to chose. Being cohersed into doing things by a government who would deny me the right to vote if i dont go along with them is not something i would react favourably too. If the netherlands comes to that i will gladly emmigrate the hell out of here."

Who said anything about forcing? You are free to chose how you wish to serve the system for the two years.

I also suppose you object to mandatory military service like we have in Sweden for example, where every male goes through the drafting process? After all, this results in one year (on average) being taken from your life and you have very little to show for it in terms of benefits or rights.

[Guest]

I think that the error of the model is that it assumes that the people serve the government. It is supposed to go the other way around.

[Longinius 1]

"I think that the error of the model is that it assumes that the people serve the government. It is supposed to go the other way around."

I don't know if that is the case, seems to be more of a symbiotic relationship. Can you honestly say that our government serves us? It sure feels the other way around...

[Supah 0]

I do object to mandatory military service. Dont get me wrong i have allot of respect for people who serve in the armed forces. I just dont feel like being a soldier myself. In times of war i'd be more then happy to serve allthough i doubt i would be of much use to the armed forces (damaged nervous ends due to an electric shock so i couldnt hit the broad side of a barn) but in peace time .... no it should be a choice. And the heinlien model DOES force people to serve .... you dont serve you dont vote, so in fact you're degraded to some semi-citizen just because of your conviction. That seems pretty damn wrong to me.

[Longinius 1]

"And the heinlien model DOES force people to serve .... you dont serve you dont vote, so in fact you're degraded to some semi-citizen just because of your conviction. That seems pretty damn wrong to me."

Well, I'd rather live in a society were people who actually gave a damn voted for who should be in charge, AND could make a difference doing so, than a society which government is based on tradition and the decisions of lazy citizens. I guess we are just different, and that is OK by me.

I'd rather get my right to vote through earnest work anyway, reassured in the thought that anyone else voting also worked for it. Taht way, they are less likely to vote out of habit or simplicity.

[Placebo 28]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ July 03 2002,12:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I do object to mandatory military service.<span id='postcolor'>

I wish they'd bring it back, you should see the state of the teen generation in this country, national service will teach them some respect and discipline.

I sound like such an old fart LMAO

[Supah 0]

Placebo: I though you WERE an old fart? wasnt that a prerequisit for being a admin? (if i dont get banned now i dunno)

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

To Warin:

No offense to Canada, I was being a wiseass and by "your" country I meant any person reading the forum not from the US. I meant I would happily invade.

And sure you can see a doctor any time you want without being in debt for the rest of your life, but so can people here if they work hard and pay for their medical care. Who wants hobos to live long er anyway?

[Placebo 28]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ July 03 2002,13:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Placebo: I though you WERE an old fart? wasnt that a prerequisit for being a admin? (if i dont get banned now i dunno)<span id='postcolor'>

Watch it mister

[Sadico 1]

You want the military oligarchy Heinlein propossed in Starship Troopers!? Crap, that's scary!

I sure as hell would overthrow my government! It's shamefull that more than 25 years after Franco's death the fuckers who supported him are back in the government!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I admit that spain is very much different than Germany in this area. After the wall fell all those old motherfuckers from the former communist party survived but at least the terrible policemen and secret-service people were kicked out and penalised. During my studies in Salamanca I learned to know that in Spain this was not the case. The Police-officers are still the ones from the Franco-dynasty. They are absolute ASSHOLEs: they abuse their power, they ignore the law and they are full of hate against people with money and they even dare to approach girls in pretty offensive ways.

Dont you know this yoke. Heaven is where the british are the policemen, the german the mechanics, the italian the lovers, the spanish are the chefs (cooks).

And hell is where the germans are the lovers, the british the chefs (cooks), the italian the mechanics and the spanish the policemen!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 03 2002,16:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dont you know this yoke. Heaven is where the british are the policemen, the german the mechanics, the italian the lovers, the spanish are the chefs (cooks).

And hell is where the germans are the lovers, the british the chefs (cooks), the italian the mechanics and the spanish the policemen!  <span id='postcolor'>

You got the joke all wrong:

In heaven:

The English are the police,

The Germans are the mechanics,

The Swiss are the administrators,

The French are the lovers,

The Italians are the cooks.

In hell:

The English are the cooks,

The French are the mechanics,

The Swiss are the lovers,

The Italians are the administrators,

The Germans are the police!

I think that everybody can agree that they would rather meet a Spanish policeman then a German

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Pah, all wrong! You intentionaly broke all copyright laws of this yoke by changing it. The Swiss are half italian and half french, so why would they be bad lovers. Why the heck should germans be bad policemen? Actually they are better than the swiss. The swiss are terribly polite but they make you pay incredible fines for the smallest things. The germans are usually pretty nice and often let you go without a fine (anyway we have the lowest speeding fines). The french the lovers? Maybe they are romantic but hell there is more to the story than talking nicely and buying flowers .

But with the Italians being administrators sounds cool, I like that

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 03 2002,16:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Pah, all wrong! You intentionaly broke all copyright laws of this yoke by changing it.<span id='postcolor'>

Do a search on google for "hell swiss germans police lovers"

and you'll se that my version was correct

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Swiss are half italian and half french, so why would they be bad lovers.<span id='postcolor'>

It is their German part I suppose

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why the heck should germans be bad policemen?<span id='postcolor'>

They are not bad policemen. They are *too good* policemen German efficiency you know. Combine that with guns and sirens and nothing good can come out of it

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But with the Italians being administrators sounds cool, I like that<span id='postcolor'>

That would be the end of the world, yes

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But with the Italians being administrators sounds cool, I like that

That would be the end of the world, yes <span id='postcolor'>

Or the begining of my career!

However, I herewith claim openly that the germans are worse lovers than the swiss! Only we have the right to get this title. The swiss would be the worst...well.. I dont know...maybe..

they are shitty drivers

fucking un-humourous (friendly but so un-funny)

terrible accent (in all 4 languages)

terribly slow (especially in Bern)

too damm precise

no temperament (these people never shout or fight)

[Sadico 1]

The Italians the cooks? Well, maybe. I like Italian food almost as much as spanish food.

Do you know what cops in Spain do when they catch someone with drugs? They steal his drugs and let him go, so they can keep the drugs for them or sell them.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think that everybody can agree that they would rather meet a Spanish policeman then a German <span id='postcolor'>

Believe me, my parents have lived 15 years in Germany, and for that they have told me the german cops are pretty nice compared with spanish cops. They also wash their armpits and mouths more often. People seems to think that german cops are like the SS officers in the films or something like that

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 03 2002,16:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However, I herewith claim openly that the germans are worse lovers than the swiss!<span id='postcolor'>

You know, that is an unfair generalization. Just because you are a bad lover doesn't mean that all Germans are

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

German cops still have the reputation they had from 20 yrs ago. Now they are not so bad, but Germans are still insanely obsessed with laws and rules.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Im gonna go to the theatre now, but when I come back I will overrun you with comments on this discussion!

[WKK Gimbal 0]

The first thing I would do was to build a secret ninja-dojo. My army of perfectly loyal and toptrained ninjas would then be used to take out anyone anywhere in the world who I thought was an idiot. Why attack an army when you can just kill it's general?

I would maintain a liberal official politic and be widely known as a caring and fair ruler. Meanwhile my ninjas would be busy in the shadows.

The victims could be anyone from:

George Bush

Saddam Hussein

Sharon

Bin Laden

Bill Gates

George Lucas

The entire McDonald's executive staff

Several Danish politicians and celebreties who I hate for their personality.

Several users of this forum.

My ex-girlfriends

The bully from school

A former collegue of mine who once snatched a girl I was after (yes, I bear grudges for decades! ).

Will Smith

Any gangsta-rapper (I'm sure they ain't so tough when facing a katana).

mmm ... ninjas .... I like ninjas

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

NINJAS ARE THE REAL ULTIMATE POWER!!

[Warin 0]

If you had actually read Starship Trooperrs, you would see that a LOT of people never do federal service. ANd yes, that means they cant hold office or vote, but that doesnt stop them from being succesful.

a lot of people claim Heinlein is a fascist after reading this book. I generally laugh at that. He still advocaters democratic ideals...just suggests that without some sort of responsibility to the government, how can one properly decide how things should be run.

However, I dont think that in the state the world is today that this sort of governmental system would work.

The other funny one that I have read in several places is that Heinlein is a racist...trying to make all his heros fit into some anglo saxon mold. Really amusing when you consider that Jonnie Rico is a Philipino

[Sadico 1]

I really liked the book, but honestly, if the military ruled the whole world i would suicide  

Residuum, that page is going into my sig!!