ARMA 2: Community Configuration Project (A2CCP)

[kotov12345 10]

AGM 114L is the only FnF hellfire out there all rest are manually guided !

Do I need to give link to my previous post again ?

There is 2 air-ground systems - non of them FnF - first is wire guided,Russian one.Second is Laser guided.East and west weapons.Both system require to see target to hit it.Cable wire give you option be detected only after hitting target or when rocket launched.Laser pointer theoretically can be seen/detected using IR or thermal vision.

There is also AESE systems but they very new 2011/12 and not much info about it.Looks still not very useful against ground targets.

Edited November 21, 2012 by kotov12345

[On_Sabbatical 11]

AGM 114L uses a targetting system similar to Javelin ... AGM 114K is a beamrider.

[Beagle 684]

Don't forget that the tab problem goes further than that and is worse in OA than it was in ArmA II, thia makes ArmA II indeed the better game PvP compared to OA. Since OA was relases you can command most combat vehicles from driver seat using tab to assign targets ti the gunner...and since A.I: has a build in Fire control system (Not the vehicle actualy but only the A.I.) you can do such stupid stunt liek taking of in a M1A2 at 150km/h downhill on Takistan map (the ground friction issue on takistan was never fixed, thats why you can go faster on most terrain texturs than on roads) and while you fly 500 meters down the gorge you can tab and fire and hit,,land and still have 100km/h speed and just drive by the annoying players that try to shoot you with unguided AT. BMPs are even better with them you can rush into a tows cover with up to 170Km/h. thats top niocht MilSim and i rellay like the detail how such everyday tactics perform so well in ArmA II.

This is no problem in original ArmA II since onl,y the commander can assign targets and the ground friction does not allow any insane speed makig ArmA II simpyl the better pvp Environtment.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Beagle

[kotov12345 10]

AGM 114L uses a targetting system similar to Javelin ... AGM 114K is a beamrider.

only mean that anything which change IR picture of target(for example hot smoke) will able to force warhead missed target.But anyway gunner need to clear see target(or to see mark from target which seen other friendly chopper) Not like in game.

Also on all videos in internet,ah64d while firing chopper have very low speed or even 0.If you want to see so called FNF missile in game you need to implement speed factor as well,which is very critical in game :)

Edited November 21, 2012 by kotov12345

[[frl]myke 14]

kotov12345, please, if you don't know what you're talking just...stay quiet. The AGM-114 (up to K version) is a laser guided weapon system. Gunner doesn't control the missile, only the laser. If the guidance system loses the laser, the gunner can't take control over the missile. The missile tracks the target area to hopefully find the laser again. And since Buddy lasing is possible, with LOAL mode gunner doesn't even need to see the target. And the L version is radar guided, completely "fire & forget".

A manually guided missile would be a TOW where gunner directly controls the flight path of the missile. And Beamrider is again a completely another approach. While a laserguided missile locks on the laserpoint on the target, a Beamrider has a laser receiver at it's back, following the laserbeam controlled by the gunner. This is something inbetween a laser guided and a TOW.

Also on all videos in internet,ah64d while firing chopper have very low speed or even 0.

And on all those videos you clearly see which version it is. And low speed or even 0 is common attack behaviour of choppers. Quiet and hidden is the usual way, not fast and loud.

So please please please, just.....be quiet.

Edited November 21, 2012 by [FRL]Myke

[.kju 3245]

Please discuss the AH64 / Hellfire / Laser for more vehicles here:

Feature #64105: Should Hellfire get manual control in addition? Or only add a laser for the gunner?

And please try the attached sample addon ingame (SP with AI crew + MP with two player crew) before posting your thoughts..

(make sure to disable the CCP test addon for this)

The only question here is if a Laser for the gunner alone, or also manual guidance is an improvement over the current state or not.

Everything else is besides the point.

---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

@ Guess Who

As several people consider the M242 AP's damage too low (CIT ticket), most likely it is true.

Still if non one else is coming up with data to make a reasonable hit value for it,

it means I have to do the research which naturally makes it low prio and a lot less likely to happen.

---

Can you make a simple recording of your locking situations please.

It may help to get a clearer picture or to clear up misunderstandings.

Regular/cadet are unaffected as long as they use the default value for AutoGuideAT (enabled for them).

[Beagle 684]

the problem is not the apache itself, it's about that all vehicles work that way as it even T34s, BMPs and BRDMS have an longbow radar. btw Apche gunner should only control laser and Gun... not missiles and that you can tab lock targets outside of your line of sight in aircraft that dotn have any kind of 360° detection.

[.kju 3245]

Radar itself cannot be tweaked by the CCP as its not difficulty dependent.

You can vote CIT tickets that suggest to change this.

If one is to disable locking for Hellfires, only manual guidance would work - no more laser locking.

Again out of scope for the CCP, but again a CIT ticket to make laserLock independent to canLock.

As for 360° detection again there is a good CIT ticket suggesting improvements for this.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

;2255600']

As several people consider the M242 AP's damage too low (CIT ticket)' date=' most likely it is true.

Still if non one else is coming up with data to make a reasonable hit value for it,

it means I have to do the research which naturally makes it low prio and a lot less likely to happen.

[/quote']

Manufacturers rarely give these kind of informations (and i doubt BIS has them) ... i think we will have to agree on some value according to what the bushmaster can do in real life ...

[Beagle 684]

The values I posted earlier in this thread are absolutly reasonaöb considering the slow rate of fire in game and the fact that M242 fires a Depleted Uranium penetrator not a standart AP round. The hit values never translate in RHA vaues in RV games. so knowing numbers won't really help much. As I stated before I have only values for the 20mm Autocannon by Rheinmetall and that's 44mm RHA without DU at 1000 Meters.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Beagle

[kotov12345 10]

Myke;2255562']kotov12345' date=' please, if you don't know what you're talking just...stay quiet. The AGM-114 (up to K version) is a laser guided weapon system. Gunner doesn't control the missile, only the laser. If the guidance system loses the laser, the gunner can't take control over the missile. The missile tracks the target area to hopefully find the laser again. And since Buddy lasing is possible, with LOAL mode gunner doesn't even need to see the target. And the L version is radar guided, completely "fire & forget".

A manually guided missile would be a TOW where gunner directly controls the flight path of the missile. And Beamrider is again a completely another approach. While a laserguided missile locks on the laserpoint on the target, a Beamrider has a laser receiver at it's back, following the laserbeam controlled by the gunner. This is something inbetween a laser guided and a TOW.

And on all those videos you clearly see which version it is. And low speed or even 0 is common attack behaviour of choppers. Quiet and hidden is the usual way, not fast and loud.

So please please please, just.....be quiet.[/quote']

Absolutely agree with you this time,actually first time read good description of weapons system. But anyway in game absolutely different story.I'm not gonna repeat problem.Everyone knows.

So main point is gunner should point to the target and missile guidance system follow laser right ?I understand this.I will very glad to see such implementation in game.But we are talking about exciting game engine and what kind of PLAYABLE compromise we can implement to have good balanced and realistic pvp battles.Am I correct ?

At these very hard to see that someone fixing bugs and even fix tow flying range take couple of years.I'm not talking about that speed still wrong.I need to say that visibility in game much greater than real.That is why weapons looks so powerful.Realistically in 1991 (was a document somewhere I already mention in dev heaven) for m1a1 and m2a2 was very difficult to do F/Foe recognition for distances over 2km.So magnification in game so great and makes dis-balance.Because we are trying to have realistic figures in weapons config in unrealistic conditions.

I tried to find how tanks looks like on different distances 500m 1km 2km on pictures and not found any.I compare how people looks like and found that people look no-proportionally bigger.I'm not remember exactly.Was long time ago.I assumed same happens with all objects in game.I understand this is something not changeable and drop future investigation.

Edited November 22, 2012 by kotov12345

[[frl]myke 14]

But we are talking about exciting game engine and what kind of PLAYABLE compromise we can implement to have good balanced and realistic pvp battles.Am I correct ?

Not me, i am more interested in more or less accurate representation of the systems as far the game engine allows it. That said, give the gunner a laser designator and everythings fine. And also the Tab lock i don't see as a problem for Air vehicles (old tanks is another topic). It's no new tech that fighters and attack choppers are networked and share sensor data, not to forget that i expect a AWACS over the area which also provides data. There i expect to have target data from targets beyond my own viewrange and even out of my sensor range. Since there is no AWACS ingame, Tab lock is the closest that simulates this Data network.

Of course, this doesn't count for old Tanks but i would guess that JSTARS can do similar for modern era tanks.

Most perfect solution would be to have AWACS and JSTARS simulated but this is clearly out of any reach. So don't take this as serious proposition.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

The values I posted earlier in this thread are absolutly reasonaöb considering the slow rate of fire in game and the fact that M242 fires a Depleted Uranium penetrator not a standart AP round. The hit values never translate in RHA vaues in RV games. so knowing numbers won't really help much. As I stated before I have only values for the 20mm Autocannon by Rheinmetall and that's 44mm RHA without DU at 1000 Meters.

Sorry,but i disagree on many points:

- The kind of ammunitions shot by M242 in the game is unknown,we can't say that it's DU bullets or normal.

- Those values you posted above are not resonable from my point of view,because they are higher than 2A42 canon APs which we both know they toast any tank in the game (10 AP rounds from bmp2 will disable a t72),and in the other hand LAV25 is not an antitak vehicles and is confirmed that its ammunitions can't destroy a tank.

This said if we adopt those values you suggested ,whih are higher than 2a42 cannon ones,we will obtain a vehicles that have no issues raping any tank in the game which is not true in real life ... so eitherchange all values for all cannons or increase the 25 mm AP rounds hit damage,but without making it more powerful than 30 mm AP from bmp 2.

---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 PM ----------

Myke;2255795']

Most perfect solution would be to have AWACS and JSTARS simulated but this is clearly out of any reach. So don't take this as serious proposition.

I am not sure but i have already seen a AWACS flying very high on chernarus skies :D

Edited November 22, 2012 by On_Sabbatical

[Beagle 684]

qazdar the value is already in use for the HE round, its just a swap. The ammo counter clearly says APDFS. And btw back in 1993 I was crew on a Luchs equiped with 20mm cannon and it was considered that this cannon can render a T72 combat uneffective when hits with SLAP can be applied to rear or side. Im aware that this cant be doen with ArmA II hitpoitn system. The bmk20 was offf couse never intendend to be a tank killer but that does not mean you can't defend yourself with it. Its the same priciple why the 30mm GAU8A is consider a tank killer...its all a question of hit aspect. The pure diameter of a projectile is not all that matters.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Beagle

[On_Sabbatical 11]

qazdar the value is already in use for the HE round, its just a swap. The ammo counter clearly says APDFS. And btw back in 1993 I was crew on a Luchs equiped with 20mm cannon and it was considered that this cannon can render a T72 combat uneffective when hits with SLAP can be applied to rear or side. Im aware that this cant be doen with ArmA II hitpoitn system. The bmk20 was offf couse never intendend to be a tank killer but that does not mean you can't defend yourself with it. Its the same priciple why the 30mm GAU8A is consider a tank killer...its all a question of hit aspect.

With 79 damages BMP2 is able to bering down any tank,imagine LAV 25 with 124 damage !!

[Beagle 684]

With 79 damages BMP2 is able to bering down any tank,imagine LAV 25 with 124 damage !!

consider 600 vs. 180 rounds per minute. BMP wil still hold an edge. 124 is the actual HE damage already.

[.kju 3245]

Beagle you make wrong assumptions. You need to actual check what magazines/weapon/vehicle uses what ammo.

B_127x108_APHE	hit = 24;	indirectHit = 5;	indirectHitRange = 0.1;//1470Rnd_127x108_YakB
B_145x115_AP	hit = 31;	indirectHit = 0;	indirectHitRange = 0;//500Rnd_145x115_KPVT
B_20mm_AP	hit = 40;	indirectHit = 10;	indirectHitRange = 2;//1200Rnd_20mm_M621+210Rnd_20mm_ZPL_20+750Rnd_M197_AH1
B_23mm_AP	hit = 108;	indirectHit = 0;	indirectHitRange = 0;//1000Rnd_23mm_2A14_AP
B_23mm_APHE	hit = 45;	indirectHit = 10;	indirectHitRange = 0.2;//520Rnd_23mm_GSh23L
B_25mm_APDS	hit = 65;	indirectHit = 0;	indirectHitRange = 0;//210Rnd_25mm_M242_APDS
B_30mm_AP	hit = 79;	indirectHit = 0;	indirectHitRange = 0;//230Rnd_30mmAP_2A42+60Rnd_30mm_ATKMK44_AP_ACR
B_30mmA10_AP	hit = 210;	indirectHit = 36;	indirectHitRange = 3;//1350Rnd_30mmAP_A10

B_23mm_HE	hit = 42;	indirectHit = 15;	indirectHitRange = 0.3;//1000Rnd_23mm_2A14_HE
B_25mm_HE	hit = 124;	indirectHit = 30;	indirectHitRange = 0.75;//300Rnd_25mm_GAU12
B_25mm_HEI	hit = 42;	indirectHit = 25;	indirectHitRange = 0.75;//210Rnd_25mm_M242_HEI
B_30mm_HE	hit = 55;	indirectHit = 30;	indirectHitRange = 1;//140Rnd_30mm_ATKMK44_HE_ACR+180Rnd_30mm_GSh301+230Rnd_30mmHE_2A42

B_20mm_AA	hit = 57;	indirectHit = 20;	indirectHitRange = 0.4;//2100Rnd_20mm_M168
B_23mm_AA	hit = 84;	indirectHit = 30;	indirectHitRange = 0.3;//2000Rnd_23mm_AZP85
B_30mm_AA	hit = 101;	indirectHit = 35;	indirectHitRange = 0.5;//1904Rnd_30mmAA_2A38M

B_25mm_HE is used by the AV8B2. Check the post #70 by Guess Who.

[Beagle 684]

;2255997']Beagle you make wrong assumptions. You need to actual check what magazines/weapon/vehicle uses what ammo.

B_127x108_APHE	hit = 24;	indirectHit = 5;	indirectHitRange = 0.1;//1470Rnd_127x108_YakB
B_145x115_AP	hit = 31;	indirectHit = 0;	indirectHitRange = 0;//500Rnd_145x115_KPVT
B_20mm_AP	hit = 40;	indirectHit = 10;	indirectHitRange = 2;//1200Rnd_20mm_M621+210Rnd_20mm_ZPL_20+750Rnd_M197_AH1
B_23mm_AP	hit = 108;	indirectHit = 0;	indirectHitRange = 0;//1000Rnd_23mm_2A14_AP
B_23mm_APHE	hit = 45;	indirectHit = 10;	indirectHitRange = 0.2;//520Rnd_23mm_GSh23L
B_25mm_APDS	hit = 65;	indirectHit = 0;	indirectHitRange = 0;//210Rnd_25mm_M242_APDS
B_30mm_AP	hit = 79;	indirectHit = 0;	indirectHitRange = 0;//230Rnd_30mmAP_2A42+60Rnd_30mm_ATKMK44_AP_ACR
B_30mmA10_AP	hit = 210;	indirectHit = 36;	indirectHitRange = 3;//1350Rnd_30mmAP_A10

B_23mm_HE	hit = 42;	indirectHit = 15;	indirectHitRange = 0.3;//1000Rnd_23mm_2A14_HE
B_25mm_HE	hit = 124;	indirectHit = 30;	indirectHitRange = 0.75;//300Rnd_25mm_GAU12
B_25mm_HEI	hit = 42;	indirectHit = 25;	indirectHitRange = 0.75;//210Rnd_25mm_M242_HEI
B_30mm_HE	hit = 55;	indirectHit = 30;	indirectHitRange = 1;//140Rnd_30mm_ATKMK44_HE_ACR+180Rnd_30mm_GSh301+230Rnd_30mmHE_2A42

B_20mm_AA	hit = 57;	indirectHit = 20;	indirectHitRange = 0.4;//2100Rnd_20mm_M168
B_23mm_AA	hit = 84;	indirectHit = 30;	indirectHitRange = 0.3;//2000Rnd_23mm_AZP85
B_30mm_AA	hit = 101;	indirectHit = 35;	indirectHitRange = 0.5;//1904Rnd_30mmAA_2A38M

B_25mm_HE is used by the AV8B2. Check the post #70 by Guess Who.

O.K. but this just shows hoch fu**ed up the whole ammo and damage system is in ArmA II because both the GAU12 and the M242 use the same ammuniton: 25x137mm.

The main problem is stil the multiplier 600 x 79hp vs. 200 x 65hp this article in germen stated the use of DU rounds with very high V0' date=' much higher than what a russian 30mm can deliver.

[url']http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Bradley#Hauptbewaffnung[/url]

While real values are unobtainable we have to reason thet the bushmaster APDFS at LEASt as powerfull as the 2A72 AP but the later one still has the advantage of a higher rate of fire.

and im sorry I only have data from my service time for german 20mm even that data is still labeled "resricted" or "NfD" to level 1 so in do not know how to get hands on data for US weapons.

date for M242 im able to obtain and data for 2A72 in comparison:

M242

Ammunition type: M919 APFSDS-T 25x137mm, V0=1385 m/s, projectile weight 96 g, time to impact at 2500m=2,1 seconds, Maximum effective range 2500m, RHA penetration=?, rate of fire 200rpm

2A72

Ammunition type: 3UBR8 APDS 30x165mm, V0=1120 m/s, projectile weight 304 g, RHA penetration 25 mm, effective range 1500m, max. rate of fire 550rpm, max sustained rate of fire 300rpm

for comparison Rheinmetall BMK 20mm Rh 202

Ammo type: AP-T 20x139mm (tungsten carbide) V0=1150 m/s, projectile weight 134 g, RHA penetration 44mm at 1000m, max. effective range 2000m, recommended combat range 800m, Rate of fire 880-1030rpm

thats the best I can do for now but it clearly shows that size alone it not all the matters.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Beagle

[kotov12345 10]

what about idea increase armor for all vehicles and keep armor value for separate parts (tower,wheel,guns)?

In real long before vehicle burns and blow,it became unusable,broken wheels,guns,tower etc.In game it start burning and blows same moment.Can we increase body armor only ?

Helicopters 2 sabots survive ability needed to be fixed.

[Guess Who 10]

I agree with Beagle in one point actually: the slow fire rate of under 200 rounds compared to the 600 rounds of the BMP2 makes the difference, not the ammo itself. I tested a lot with a hit value of 105. You can't kill a tank, not even a T-55 before it makes toast of your Bradley. Abd that is because you can't bring enough rounds into the target before he has aquired and used his main gun. The BMP2 on the other hand can get triple the amount of rounds into its target in the same tome frame:

10 rds vs 30 rds -> 650 vs 2370 hit value (actual values in std. config), easy math!

[wattywatts 76]

@Kju

Thanks for feedback and info in CCP. I'm away for few days, so I'll take a closer look at tickets next week.

[.kju 3245]

Please check: CCP: 2012-11-23 Test version release

[Guess Who 10]

;2256492']Please check: CCP: 2012-11-23 Test version release

Nice! Will test tomorrow. Thanx.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

I agree with Beagle in one point actually: the slow fire rate of under 200 rounds compared to the 600 rounds of the BMP2 makes the difference, not the ammo itself. I tested a lot with a hit value of 105. You can't kill a tank, not even a T-55 before it makes toast of your Bradley. Abd that is because you can't bring enough rounds into the target before he has aquired and used his main gun. The BMP2 on the other hand can get triple the amount of rounds into its target in the same tome frame:

10 rds vs 30 rds -> 650 vs 2370 hit value (actual values in std. config), easy math!

As Kju stated before, balance is not the main parameter on this project ! improving bushmaster doesn't mean bringing it to the same level of another gun with higher rate ... and to be honest,we need to specify which ammo will be used for Bushmaster because it really makes a difference imo !

[.kju 3245]

As indicated before I am open to tweak the Bushmaster / weapon damage in general (or rate of fire etc),

yet it really needs specific suggestions (values) backup up by reasonable arguments and sources.

In addition as the discussion shows well, you also have to keep the effect in mind.

If just one element is made realistic and the rest is not, it will result in new issues.