Beginner Modeller seeking advice on naming aspects, face creation, etc.

[raptor 6 actual 13]

Hello Everyone.

I am working on a WW2 map and have not found any models for my specific region so I decided to make my own. After creating quite a few different models for different projects, I'm nearing the point where I need to move from the 0.000 LOD to the next step.

Problem is....I don't know if I even did the first LOD correctly and don't want to proceed until I get advice from you all.

Here is just one of my buildings created from scratch in O2, yet one picture was taken in Modo. I don't know how to texture, and again, I'm not sure if I even did the polygon creation correctly so as to help ease the process of texturing.

Anyways, here is a WW2 Army Airfield Control Tower.

The model is almost entirely done in 4 pointed polygons, though I had to do a few with only three. The walls on the inside are 4inches thick, and the vertex count comes in at 3,444 and face count at 2182.

The last two pics of my work really look chaotic, but that's the only way I could find to make these faces without addin even more verts.

Again, I'm asking people if it look like I'm on the right track to moving to the next step. What do I need to name for selections other than the points I'll make for animating doors? Am I putting too much detail into the model? I know that there are tutorials out there and Biki pages out there dedicated to specific naming properties, but I haven't gotten to that point yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Raptor 6 Actual

[Snake Man 407]

In generally there is two big steps next for you to make it work in-game.

First is to create Geometry so units cannot pass through it and Geometry-Fire so bullets/shells/etc cannot pass through it.

Second is lower resolution LOD's so your nice model don't bring engine into its knees. Since you're using modo I suggest Modo 302 Polygon Reducer tutorial page. Heh never mind that its for 302 and otherwise outdated stuff, but at least you get the idea how to proceed :)

Those are the two game play effecting features you must add before bringing it in-game.

[raptor 6 actual 13]

So...2182 polys are too high?

[Robster 11]

nop. that's ok... if your building is, as Dual Joe said- a "hero object"

remember that there is a p3d plugin for 401 and once you get used to it, then workflow gets pretty fast

EDIT: It seems that your model has quads... and polys are reduced to tris, so total number of polys may be increased... concerning all those barriers... anyways this applies for first res LOD which should be the most heavy Lod... so, I guess it should be FPS friendly and if those barriers are thin enough you may consider to make them as triangled shape rather than squared shape, specially concerning those upper windows, because nobody will notice it seeing them from below (too far)... those are methods to save polys where they matter... saludines!

Edited September 28, 2012 by Robster

[raptor 6 actual 13]

First, no disrespect, but I have no idea what a "hero-object" is, lol :)

Second, I only used Modo to find any reversed faces...sorry to disappoint, but for now, I am completely using Oxygen.

[Robster 11]

lol no worries... today we were talking about those statics objects as buildings that may have a huge number of polygons... and he considered them as "hero objects" meaning a building that may have more details than needed but is going to be placed very few times -just like yours- so FPS shouldn't be seriously affected... I am pretty sure that your buildings may have around 4000 polys in first lod and still run flawlessly... also too many render stages might be fps killers...

so, basically try to convert everything into tris and then you can evaluate chances to add more eye candy, little details, you know... keeping in balance with overall performance... where a lot of troops and mid hi poly vehicles will be walking or flying around

EDIT: I DID EDIT ABOVE POST :P

[raptor 6 actual 13]

Again, thanks Robster for the help.

See, I thought that modelling in all "tri's" was bad...as I saw a comment one time asking why a modeller did a complete model that way.

Also, the Control tower model is basically done in the first LOD, so I will convert to tri's and re-evaluate. I never thought when I started modelling that I would have to cut back on detail, but I see it's one of the limitations for games...especially Arma I guess.

I am also working on an aircraft hangar that holds two C-47's (one in front of the other), and a few different versions of World War 2 barracks. The barracks were really pushing the limits of the poly budget due to the rafters that are exposed on the exterior of the model.

In the end, thanks for the explanation of the "hero-objects" because my map is only 5k x 5k and it's not too loaded down with clutter or objects, so I guess it'll be ok to splurge in a few spots.

Sorry to draw this out, but I envisioned a small Army Airfield that would allow for people to enter different buildings and feel as if they were actually "there." Hopefully, people would find it entertaining for training grounds or cutscenes, or even places to act as if they actually had offices to sit down in. Anyhow, I'll keep an eye on the polys.

[Snake Man 407]

So...2182 polys are too high?

For 1.0 LOD no, but you must create lower resolution LODs too.

Check out Low Resolution LOD guide, it explains how to setup the LODs.

[[aps]gnat 28]

FYI

For placement in Visitor/Terrain making, buildings can be scaled.

Geometry etc generally works fine up to a point. (i.e. ingame testing required)

[DualJoe 10]

Lol Robster we were talking via PM about that, so nobody here has seen it. It could be an interesting topic for public discussion as well.

The hero-object thing was my way of naming objects that I see as defining a town or area. Don't know how I came up with the title though. Instead of having to defend or attack some random stack of buildings with a name on the map, I'm trying to give each area something really distinctive to draw the players in and let them feel more involved. One glance and you know exactly what it is your looking at, without having to be told/shown terrain you've loaded or having to look at a the mystery circle to tell you where you are.

Anyways since those objects are unique on a map I figured they can afford to be and should be more detailed.

Modelling should be done in quads, because most modelling-tools only make sense with quads. It also makes uv-unwrapping more tolerable. Videocards work with tris, but for humans they are a PITA. So if you really want absolute control over how your model will look ingame you could do a final tri adjustment phase. As long as you're mostly working with flat faces and rectangles I doubt you'll see any benefits apart from an increase in work.

[raptor 6 actual 13]

Ok, I'm almost getting it...though I think I may need you all to break out the crayons for me. I will re-watch Gnat's videos where he goes through the different lods, I'll go and check out the links posted above as well. As for the polygons, am I to understand that it's up to me on the main resolution LOD as to whether I use tri's or quads?

And....the poly count is a total of all of the polys PER resolution LOD, Geometry, shadow, etc.?

----EDIT-------

@Gnat- the Seal Delivery Vehicle that I sent you a while back....what problems did it give you, seeing as how it was only one LOD?

[DualJoe 10]

For your own sanity I'd make it a habit to keep a copy of the quad-based versions.

The polycount is mostly relevant for the first or highest level resolution-LOD. The other resolution LODs are for viewing your model at a distance and should be as low as you can get away with. Most seem to make a total of around three resolution-LODs, for close, medium and far ranges where the lowest poly-version can be around 500 tris. Lower than that doesn't seem to increase performance if I recall correctly.

I'm in no way an expert in videocards or arma-engine-tech, but I seem to remember that at a certain point the overhead of sending the model to the videocard starts to outweigh the polycount. That same overhead is also the reason that it's not really useful to have a huge number of resolution-LODs.

Edited September 28, 2012 by DualJoe

[[aps]gnat 28]

@Gnat- the Seal Delivery Vehicle that I sent you a while back....what problems did it give you, seeing as how it was only one LOD?

Problems relating to just 1 LOD ?

Nothing !

Despite what others might suggest, I have yet to find 1 only Resolution LOD being an issue.

I can see that it might, if common sense didn't prevail.

If your model is very high poly and/or sections then sure.

But if your model is only 3k poly and 3 sections ..... not going to be an issue on game performance or appearance

But, common sense says if theres an easy way to make a second (or third) resolution LOD you should do it.

Examples are removing small object/poly details that you'd never see from 1000 meters away.

Or replacing a bunch of detail with a new texture that makes it look like that detail is there. Example a wall of windows with many panels, take a screenshot then use that as a texture.

Trying keeping as many of these textures together. ie least amount of texture swapping.

Some may say that's lazy, but its all a Cost-Benefit equation to me. I'm not going to waste 200 hours making a half dozen LODs that a) doesn't improve performance b) very few people will ever notice a difference

Hope thats what you were asking LOL

Generally poly count consideration (what people quote) is the 1st Resolution LOD. But, I can see how the 1st Shadow LOD should be considered also, as it can effect performance at in-close viewing.

Consider using proxies/separate p3d's for interior detail. i.e. desks, chairs etc (many already exist in ArmA2) Will help performance and make modeling easier.

[max power 21]

I would definitely watch your hard / soft edges in O2. If you're able to set them in the 3d application you're using, and export them to oxygen, it will save you a lot of hassle.

[raptor 6 actual 13]

Sorry gentlemen, I was away for the weekend.

@Gnat- Yes, I am trying to keep to the "common sense" rule, lol. As far as the LOD question on the SDV, I just meant...what problems did you encounter on my modelling technique with it, that I can take into this new objective? I know I only made you a basic model, but I now see that I may have spent too much time detailing stuff that RVMATs and baking normal maps should've taken care of. Any advice from someone that has actually had their hands on my work is appreciated.

@Max- I'll look again at the BI Wiki and try to wrap my head around what needs hard vs soft edges. From my pics above, I think I modelled all in hard edges. I don't know why O2 started doing that....I must have hit a button or changed something in the options as of late. Anyways, thanks for popping in and helping.

@All others- I really appreciate the help you are ALL giving me. I hope to be able to contribute back one of these days, instead of flooding the forums with only questions and empty projects.

Cheers

[max power 21]

@Max- I'll look again at the BI Wiki and try to wrap my head around what needs hard vs soft edges. From my pics above, I think I modelled all in hard edges. I don't know why O2 started doing that....I must have hit a button or changed something in the options as of late. Anyways, thanks for popping in and helping.

To control the hard/soft edges in o2 you have to select the vertices on each side of the edge you wish to affect and hit u or i (depending on what you change them to). It difficult because if you select more than a few vertices to do at once, you often convert more edges than you planned.

[[aps]gnat 28]

Any advice from someone that has actually had their hands on my work is appreciated.

I'm not in the same league as many of the 3d modellers here mate ;) ..... but from what I saw of your model, nothing of note, was all good from memory.

I hope to be able to contribute back one of these days, instead of flooding the forums with only questions and empty projects.

Don't worry about it, we all have our turn.

[STALKERGB 6]

As for the polygons, am I to understand that it's up to me on the main resolution LOD as to whether I use tri's or quads?

Generally try to keep to quads, if for no other reason it makes your model seem less cluttered to look at. Obviously when it's in game it'll have been broken up into tri's so one of the benefits to using tri's yourself is that you can define where a quad is cut across the middle. (If that makes sense).

Also I find that using lots of tri's can cause slightly odd shading sometimes, so if you had something like below:

Where a single point has lots of edges coming out of it, it can produce some weird lighting around that area. Not always but from personal experience it seems to happen from time to time.

[max power 21]

It helps if you view edges as carriers of lighting information. Long edges, and edges which converge on one surface normal when they all have different normal angles on the other end make strange lighting.

[raptor 6 actual 13]

So, I read that each resolution LOD (IE- 0.000, 1.000, 2.000, ...etc) should be half the number of poly's as the previous one? I'm assuming that's a general rule of thumb or is that set in stone?

Also, does each LOD have a setting in the config defining at what distance it should "kick in?"

[PuFu 4600]

So, I read that each resolution LOD (IE- 0.000, 1.000, 2.000, ...etc) should be half the number of poly's as the previous one? I'm assuming that's a general rule of thumb or is that set in stone?

rule of thumb

Also, does each LOD have a setting in the config defining at what distance it should "kick in?"

it is hardcoded in the engine

[max power 21]

I should add that everything in art is a rule of thumb. Ideally, the differences in the LODs should be significant but also should not be noticeable.

[meshcarver 12]

Hi Raptor,

Just a quickie man, from what I could tell from your model of the building, poly-construction wise it looked completely fine.

I couldn't see any edges/polys that appeared irregular in regards to getting them ingame. It looked nice and solid with clean edge flow for easy UV'ing.

Keep at it mate! :D

Marc

[raptor 6 actual 13]

Thx Marc and all others that have posted here. I am attempting to make the geo LOD at the moment. I hope to focus on that until I move on to another level. Texturing will be the last thing I attempt though.

I'll post some more info later.

[babylonjoke 22]

Nice job raptor on this model!. I remember that one of my firsts model was a control tower too.. If you need any tips on texturing I'll try to help you, just pm me :)