Controls Scheme & User Interface Feedback

[Nicholas 5]

I really like your idea, MadDogX. It seems the most logical and intuitive; looks nice as well. :)

[maddogx 13]

I guess the specifics are debatable, such as the options criticized by Pliskin, the method of activation etc., but I think the core concept of relocating the old AI commands to the NUMPAD, adding rose menus for the most important AI commands and placing weapons selection on the number keys is pretty solid.

[rye1 22]

Fall back eee. A break contact would be awesome to see. Nice concept btw MadDogX.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I guess the specifics are debatable, such as the options criticized by Pliskin, the method of activation etc., but I think the core concept of relocating the old AI commands to the NUMPAD, adding rose menus for the most important AI commands and placing weapons selection on the number keys is pretty solid.

Radial AI command menu was one of the first proposed solutions in this thread, and since it is now appreciated & acknowledged by everyone, we could discuss the list of commands, which is to be included in the menu.

Two circle radial menu would only be possible with activation method #2. Let's suppose we have a real estate of 8 icons, what would be the best possible configuration?

Proposed list, bare minimum group of 4:

1) Move to -> [context: Attack Enemy, Heal Friendly];

2) Fall back into formation;

3) Stop;

4) Suppressive fire;

Debated:

5) Disengage;

6) Take cover;

7) ?;

8) ?;

Move To & Stop would be paired on opposite sides of the menu, as to become intuitive. I'd include "Get in" as 7), which would also have a context of "Disembark" if the unit is in a vehicle. And the last icon would have to be either "Engage", or "Engage at Will", if "Disengage" is to be included as well.

Although, both Disengage & Engage commands could be replaced with Flank Left / Right on opposite sides, see -> http://i45.tinypic.com/119p9id.jpg

Formations, alert states would be on the Numpad. One more issue is the "Target - 2" menu - how do we deal with that?

Edited September 22, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[maddogx 13]

I'd include "Get in" as 7), which would also have a context of "Disembark" if the unit is in a vehicle.

I'd take that a step further and use it to order AI to interact with other objects too, for example opening and closing doors, operating other objects... disarming mines perhaps?

One more issue is the "Target - 2" menu - how do we deal with that?

Leave it for the numpad - there are way too many possible options there (depending on the mission) to be used in a radial menu.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I'd take that a step further and use it to order AI to interact with other objects too, for example opening and closing doors, operating other objects... disarming mines perhaps?

YES! :icon_mrgreen:

"GET IN" -> [context: Mines -> "DISARM; Doors/ladders -> "USE"; In a vehicle -> "DISEMBARK"]

Pliskin's list:

1) Move to -> [context: Enemy -> "ATTACK ENEMY"; Friendly (wounded) -> "HEAL FRIENDLY"];

2) Fall back into formation;

3) Stop;

4) Suppressive fire;

5) Get in -> [context: Mines -> "DISARM; Doors/ladders -> "USE"; In a vehicle -> "DISEMBARK"];

Debated:

6) Disengage;

7) Take cover;

8) ?;

Shapes up to be a very nice AI radial menu with good utility for commanding in the immediate area in CQB.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[CarlGustaffa 4]

One is enough, see above. Formations can be accessed from the Numpad, as you've said, and to my recollection everything else appears to be on the radial menu.

One is not enough - octagon is also not enough. Numpad (which laptops doesn't have, which may be okay for the rarely used defalt commands but not so much for something like formations) is already in use and (as with the current system) poses a limit to the amount of formations we can even have in the game. Expand spoiler to see my own (quite full, but still not everything) 2x8 compass system called from (in this setup) 8 different governing keys:

Overview over predefined (default) but customizable keys
W - Attack or battle orders.
S - Scanning and watching orders.
F - Formations.
T - Team assignment system and team switching.
E - Engagement rules and squad security.
G - Gearing, vehicle interaction, and object interaction.
R - Reports and support system.
? - Anything future stuff, addon based of whatever. Just a blank template to experiment with.

The beauty is you don't have to let go your regular control keys and look for the number.
The compass system recognizes that you are holding W, but won't interfere until you hold RMB and starts dragging.
It is "big and ugly", but it gets the job done instantly, highly intuitive, and extremely graphical.
Remember, these boxes can be color coded or be coupled with graphics (i.e. for formations).

W - Attack or battle orders.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   |  ATTACK   |                                     
                                   | ENEMY OR  |                                     
         +-----------+             | POSITION  |             +-----------+           
         | ASSAULT   |             |           |             | ASSAULT   |           
         |  LEFT     |             +-----------+             |  RIGHT    |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | TARGET    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+| ENEMY OR  |+-----------+                        
                      | BOUNDING  ||           || ADVANCE   |                        
                      | ON        || POSITION  ||           |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |(NEW STYLE)|             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
| FLANK     |     | FIND      |     |           |     | NEXT      |     | FLANK     | 
| LEFT      |     | COVER     |     |           |     |           |     | RIGHT     | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     | WAYPOINT  |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      | BOUNDING  |             | SUPPRESS  |                        
                      | OFF       |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           || STAY BACK ||           |                        
                      |(OLD STYLE)||           ||           |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | STOP      |             +-----------+             | WAIT      |           
         |           |                                       | FOR ME    |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | RETURN TO |             +-----------+           
                                   | FORMATION |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
S - Scanning and watching orders.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   |  WATCH    |                                     
                                   |  NORTH    |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | WATCH     |             |           |             | WATCH     |           
         | NORTH     |             +-----------+             | NORTH     |           
         | WEST      |                                       | EAST      |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | WATCH     |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+| AHEAD     |+-----------+                        
                      | WATCH     ||           || SCAN      |                        
                      | DIRECTION ||           || HORIZON   |                        
                      |           |+-----------+| HIGH      |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
| WATCH     |     | WATCH     |     |           |     | WATCH     |     | WATCH     | 
| WEST      |     | LEFT      |     |           |     | RIGHT     |     | EAST      | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      | WATCH     |             | SCAN      |                        
                      | OBJNULL   |+-----------+| HORIZON   |                        
                      |           || WATCH     || LOW       |                        
                      | :-)       || BACK      ||           |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | WATCH     |             +-----------+             | WATCH     |           
         | SOUTH     |                                       | SOUTH     |           
         | WEST      |                                       | EAST      |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             |  WATCH    |             +-----------+           
                                   |  SOUTH    |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
F - Formations.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   |  LINE     |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
         +-----------+             |   .....   |             +-----------+           
         |.   ECHELON|             |           |             |ECHELON   .|           
         | .    RIGHT|             +-----------+             |LEFT (NOT. |           
         |  .  (NOT A|                                       |A BUG   .  |           
         |   .   BUG)|             +-----------+             |       .   |           
         +-----------+             |  WEDGE    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+|    .      |+-----------+                        
                      | FILE      ||   . .     ||FIRETEAM   |                        
                      | (COLUMN   ||  .   .    ||BOX        |                        
                      | COMPACT): |+-----------+|      ::   |                        
                      |         : |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |          ^| 
| INCREASE  |     | DECREASE  |     |           |     | DECREASE ^|     | INCREASE  | 
|  SPREAD   |     |  SPREAD   |     |           |     |  SPEED?  ^|     |  SPEED?   | 
|<<--   -->>|     | -->> <<-- |     |           |     |           |     |          ^| 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      |    .   .  |             |DELTA   .  |                        
                      | VEE . .   |+-----------+|       . . |                        
                      |      .    || STAG    . ||        .  |                        
                      |           || COLUMN .  ||       . . |                        
                      +-----------+|         . |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |        .  |             +-----------+           
         | HERRING-  |             +-----------+             |  COIL     |           
         |  BONE     |                                       |           |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |(VEHICLES) |             +-----------+             | (VEHICLES)|           
         +-----------+             |         . |             +-----------+           
                                   | COLUMN  . |                                     
                                   |         . |                                     
                                   |         . |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
T - Team assignment system and team switching.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   | ASSIGN    |                                     
                                   | RED       |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | ASSIGN    |             |           |             | ASSIGN    |           
         | BLUE      |             +-----------+             | GREEN     |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | SELECT    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+| RED       |+-----------+                        
                      | SELECT    ||           || SELECT    |                        
                      | BLUE      ||           || GREEN     |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
| SWITCH    |     |  SWITCH   |     |           |     | SWITCH    |     |   TEAM    | 
| TO        |     |  TO PREV  |     |           |     | TO NEXT   |     |  SWITCH   | 
| SELECTED  |     |  UNIT     |     |           |     | UNIT      |     |  DIALOG   | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      | SELECT    |             | SELECT    |                        
                      | YELLOW    |+-----------+| WHITE     |                        
                      |           || SELECT    ||           |                        
                      |           || ALL       ||           |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | ASSIGN    |             +-----------+             | ASSIGN    |           
         | YELLOW    |                                       | WHITE     |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | UNASSIGN  |             +-----------+           
                                   | SELECTED  |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
E - Engagement and squad security.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   | STEALTH   |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | GO PRONE  |             |           |             | STAY      |           
         |           |             +-----------+             | CROUCHED  |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | DANGER    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
                      | OPEN      ||           || FIRE      |                        
                      | FIRE      ||           ||           |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
|           |     |  ENGAGE   |     |           |     | DISENGAGE |     | BREAK AND | 
| ENGAGE    |     |  AT WILL  |     |           |     |           |     |  EVADE?   | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      | HOLD      |             | HOLD      |                        
                      | FIRE      |+-----------+| FIRE      |                        
                      |           || AWARE     || MORE      |                        
                      |           ||           || (NEVER)?  |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | KEEP      |             +-----------+             | STAY UP   |           
         | LOW       |                                       |           |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | SAFE      |             +-----------+           
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
G - Gearing, vehicle interaction, and object interaction.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   | GET IN AS |                                     
                                   | COMMANDER |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | GET IN AS |             |           |             | GET IN AS |           
         | GUNNER    |             +-----------+             | DRIVER    |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | GET IN    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+| ANYWHERE  |+-----------+                        
                      | GET IN AS ||           || GET IN AS |                        
                      | LEFT GUN  ||           || RIGHT GUN |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
|HEAL AT    |     |RELOAD OR  |     |           |     |TOGGLE ENG |     |TOGGLE LGT | 
|OR DYNAMIC1|     |DYNAMIC 2  |     |           |     |(VEHICLE OR|     |(VEHICLE OR| 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |OBJECT) OR |     |OBJECT) OR | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |DYNAMIC 3  |     |DYNAMIC 4  | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      |  OPEN     |             | CLIMB     |                        
                      |  DOOR     |+-----------+| UP        |                        
                      |           || GET IN AS ||           |                        
                      |           ||  CARGO    || (LADDER)  |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | CLOSE     |             +-----------+             | CLIMB     |           
         | DOOR      |                                       | DOWN      |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             | (LADDER)  |           
         +-----------+             | GEAR AT   |             +-----------+           
                                   | THIS      |                                     
                                   | VEHICLE   |                                     
                                   | OR OBJECT |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
R - Reports and support system.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   | REPORT    |                                     
                                   | TARGET    |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         |  INJURED  |             | (REVEAL)  |             |  UNDER    |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |  FIRE     |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | REPORT    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+| AUDIBLE   |+-----------+                        
                      | ONE LESS  || TARGET    || ... IS    |                        
                      |           ||           || DOWN      |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
|           |     | AMMO LOW  |     |           |     | FUEL LOW  |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      |  REAMMO   |             |  REFUEL   |                        
                      |  TRUCK    |+-----------+|  TRUCK    |                        
                      |           || REPAIR    ||           |                        
                      |           || TRUCK     ||           |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         | MEDIC     |                                       | AMBULANCE |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
                                   | SUPPORT   |                                     
                                   |  DONE     |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
? - Anything future stuff, addon based of whatever. Just a blank template to experiment with.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         |           |             |           |             |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
                      |           ||           ||           |                        
                      |           ||           ||           |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           ||           ||           |                        
                      |           ||           ||           |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+

These are all shown as roses, but I've already expressed my wish to set these up as however I like; i.e. square, diamond, or textual list/columns/rows. If you're only going to use one, as a 1x8 rose, then feel free to do so - I won't stop ya :D But I stress the importance to allow better flexibility in the system than some hard coded setup we all just have to accept, based on a single players preference.

Bottom line: Whatever you setup, you're gonna fail the majority of players (so would I btw, if anything was hard coded).

Also: I don't know how this would work out in the end, but I sure as hell would like to experiment with it.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

One is not enough - octagon is also not enough.

While a double octagon with two cirlces would be ideal, BIS would have to fine-tune it really, and I mean really hard.

Upon activation the selection pointer (invisible on the menu) is centered, any mouse movement relocates it to a desired icon/command, but if a second row/circle is present, then, unless these movements are pixel-precise, you'd tend to "overshoot" the first circle and go to the outside one.

---------- Post added at 23:05 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------

In the case of a single circle/octagon radial, you need not worry about precision and focus on the gameplay. See Crysis 1 example,

ZOkBtVELu7c

This same interface could accommodate 3 more icons, though another circle of icons around this one would be overkill.

[Nicholas 5]

You can have the rose menu add more slices to the pie to compensate for more controls.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

You can have the rose menu add more slices to the pie to compensate for more controls.

Adding pies on the West-East-South ends of the menu could work, that's 3 additional commands at a minimum.

Any additional diagonal icons wouldn't work, you need clear, precise Left-Up-Down-Right movements in combat.

P.S. Carl, I'll give your particular layout some thought later. :) Carl, BTW, how about including an option for "Advanced AI Command" in vanilla to enable the second 1x8 radial, if anyone wishes to use it? :) The first (inner) one would contain all of the essential things for Basic AI Command, as outlined by MadDogX and myself.*

*Carl was not talking about 2x8 layout on a single menu without subsections, though the above still applies to a single hotkey, mouse only radial menu.

---------- Post added at 23:40 ---------- Previous post was at 23:09 ----------

Expand spoiler to see my own (quite full, but still not everything) 2x8 compass system called from (in this setup) 8 different governing keys:

Overview over predefined (default) but customizable keys

W - Attack or battle orders.

S - Scanning and watching orders.

F - Formations.

T - Team assignment system and team switching.

E - Engagement rules and squad security.

G - Gearing, vehicle interaction, and object interaction.

R - Reports and support system.

? - Anything future stuff, addon based of whatever. Just a blank template to experiment with.

The beauty is you don't have to let go your regular control keys and look for the number.

The compass system recognizes that you are holding W, but won't interfere until you hold RMB and starts dragging.

It is "big and ugly", but it gets the job done instantly, highly intuitive, and extremely graphical.

Remember, these boxes can be color coded or be coupled with graphics (i.e. for formations).

CarlGustaffa... Carl, I was afraid somebody might propose to put it on the WASD keys - it doesn't work, see Crysis 1 footage above - the mouse is the only option, having the menu with a lot of subsections on movement keys is a console port solution, see OFDragoonRacing. :)

A 2x8 radial menu with a single hotkey, mouse only operation is about the limit of what we can do without breaking the game for the (new) players.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[rye1 22]

That looks like a cool system though, for fitting many options in. For a fast acting menu it would have MadDog's post, CarlGusttaffa's would be slower but allow more options. Coil is basically all around defense which would be cool to see for infantry units. But yeah as Pilskin says to do it on the move you have to rely on other keys, combining key combos is a good thing though because then you do not rely on only the mouse and therefore can be quicker -> Hold whatever to bring up the menu and click these keys associated with the menu system, i.e. 4 for formations. Makes it fast and you can do it as you move. Good thing we have two hands, 10 fingers and an average sized keyboard. :D

[Nicholas 5]

Adding pies on the West-East-South ends of the menu could work, that's 3 additional commands at a minimum.

I didn't say add more pies (rose menu). I said add more slices to that pie depending on context. So you could fit another command, for example, between Fall back and Stop, only if needed in that particular situation.

Hard to explain...

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

So you could fit another command, for example, between Fall back and Stop, only if needed in that particular situation.

Slices would be context-dependent and they must be intuitive, as shown in the general movement:

"Move to -> [context: Enemy -> "ATTACK ENEMY"; Friendly (wounded) -> "HEAL FRIENDLY"];" and the general AI "use" tree:

"Get in -> [context: Mines -> "DISARM; Doors/ladders -> "USE"; In a vehicle -> "DISEMBARK"];"

That's only two icons and they alone can cover the scope of action, which currently are crosshair context dependent in ArmA II. If you have more on your mind, share with us.

You can't, for an example, have a slice of "FLANK LEFT", since there's no context - how would you bring up said command? You don't, thus it needs its own icon-pie.

So you could fit another command, for example, between Fall back and Stop, only if needed in that particular situation.

Doesn't make a lot of sense, what you're saying here is to change the layout of the octagon - can't cram another independent command between those two on MadDogX's example.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Nicholas 5]

You don't get what I'm saying.... You don't need all those options at once. Once you mouse over something (Context sensitive!) then the pie would be sliced some more and more options would show up or be removed....

Like I said, hard to explain and you are not understanding.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

You don't get what I'm saying.... You don't need all those options at once. Once you mouse over something (Context sensitive!) then the pie would be sliced some more and more options would show up or be removed....

That's exactly what we're saying, refer to - http://i45.tinypic.com/119p9id.jpg

Like I said, hard to explain and you are not understanding.

I'm not understanding silly concepts, which had been explained before in more specific terms.

Stop, Fall back into formation will not, under any circumstance, be context-sensitive - they are their own commands and icons, you will not find yourself in a position where you will be able to bring up the context of "Stop" - it doesn't exist. Well, maybe if you point at the feel/ground of the AI, whom you wish to Order to "Stop" - but that's kind of redundant and unintuitive.

[Nicholas 5]

Your example is not what I'm talking about!!!!! Yes, we've talked about the rose/pie system and how it will be context sensitive, but I'm not talking about a basic pie/rose system here.

You're not understanding at all.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Your example is not what I'm talking about!!!!! Yes, we've talked about the rose/pie system and how it will be context sensitive, but I'm not talking about a basic pie/rose system here.

You're not understanding at all.

Do provide an example. Pie sliced into 3 parts - do you realise that the havoc it will cause for selection purposes? Divide that small icon into 3 and tell me if the players will be able to pin-point any of the commands on the screen.

[Nicholas 5]

Do provide an example.

In short: we have covered almost every possible context-sensitive situation with AI via only 2 icons.

The rest of the commands will be independent of context and have their own icons.

I can't provide an example with just a screenshot. It's not that simple.

---------- Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:51 ----------

Why would you want to waste your time with my idea anyways if you think it's so fucking silly? Your idea is probably the best, I'm sure everyone here knows that by now.

---------- Post added at 21:54 ---------- Previous post was at 21:52 ----------

If anyone else posts their idea in here, you'll just come in and pick through their post and say "No, this isn't ok. If you add this, this and this, then it will be ok. See my example." Christ...

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Why would you want to waste your time with my idea anyways if you think it's so fucking silly? Your idea is probably the best, I'm sure everyone here knows that by now.

Trying to comprehend your idea, then incorporate it into my systems and then call it my own, of course. Turns out, your idea of slicing those small icons into two, or even three parts isn't exactly grand, again due to the pixel-precision needed to navigate such a menu.

People would rather have full-sized, comprehensive icons, than go pizza slice-hunting across the screen in combat. Two icons already cover all context situations. See above.

P.S. Crysis 1 gesticulate radial activation wouldn't be possible in the above case.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[dmarkwick 261]

Radial GUI on a press-to-hold hotkey has long been my favourite implementation :)

The idea I originally has was to map existing 1-0 commands on a 12-point radial. I think 12-point is fine and not too busy, as everyone understand the clock layout (I prefer it to the 10-point, which is unintuitive visually not like 8 or 12 point). Choices 1-0 from the command menu would be mapped to 1-10 on the clock, with each command choice opening up a new rose with the sub-commands. Have the center of the clock be the backspace (back) control, and that leaves two commands (11 and 12) for other uses.

So I guess I'm in favour of rose-subrose implementation that mirrors the command structure.

Oh, and you know what? As we have already come up with the GUI idea, we can double-up on this and have the unit icons also selectable by mouse :)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Radial GUI on a press-to-hold hotkey has long been my favourite implementation :)

Just to be clear: operation is via LMB, and not by a single hotkey as in Crysis?

The idea I originally has was to map existing 1-0 commands on a 12-point radial. I think 12-point is fine and not too busy, as everyone understand the clock layout (I prefer it to the 10-point, which is unintuitive visually not like 8 or 12 point). Choices 1-0 from the command menu would be mapped to 1-10 on the clock, with each command choice opening up a new rose with the sub-commands. Have the center of the clock be the backspace (back) control, and that leaves two commands (11 and 12) for other uses.

Subsection subroses compromise the fluidity of gameplay, as seen in the Crysis 1 footage. :(

So I guess I'm in favour of rose-subrose implementation that mirrors the command structure.

Well, there are lot of useless commands in those trees, you could trim them down to 6-7 subsections, each with 3-4 commands.

There has to be one, single radial with all of the relevant CQB commands for new players in mind. Advanced features like subroses with formations, alert states could be toggle-able in options. :)

Oh, and you know what? As we have already come up with the GUI idea, we can double-up on this and have the unit icons also selectable by mouse :)

Umad.

[dmarkwick 261]

Just to be clear: operation is via LMB, and not by a single hotkey as in Crysis?

I mean you have a keyboard hotkey for bringing up the GUI for as long as it's held down (I would map it to left-Alt, seeing as I have TrackIR & no use for freelook). Interaction with the GUI is via mouse & lmb.

Subsection subroses compromise the fluidity of gameplay, as seen in the Crysis 1 footage. :(

Disagree. If you're going to put commands in the GUI, you need some method of submenu. The alternative would be losing the command structure, which will not happen.

Well, there are lot of useless commands in those trees, you could trim them down to 6-7 subsections, each with 3-4 commands.

Ooh no.

There has to be one, single radial with all of the relevant CQB commands for new players in mind. Advanced features like subroses with formations, alert states could be toggle-able in options. :)

There has to be one, single radial in Iriqouis' opinion. You fiddling with taking away command abilities to make it simple will not be well received :) and not just because of old-school. For rather better reasons that you will dismiss.

Umad.

Oh dear. An idea that is logical, obvious, useful, and yet Iriquois did not like it :) Whatever will we do about this? :)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I mean you have a keyboard hotkey for bringing up the GUI for as long as it's held down (I would map it to left-Alt, seeing as I have TrackIR & no use for freelook). Interaction with the GUI is via mouse & lmb.

Exactly what I thought, though any radial menu will have a remappable hotkey, I'd want it on the middle mouse button personally.

Disagree. If you're going to put commands in the GUI, you need some method of submenu. The alternative would be losing the command structure, which will not happen.

You're saying that the examples, which we have provided with MadDogX are not enough for CQB/immediate area command? Be reasonable.

Provide clear layouts of what you intend on having on your Grandiose sub-rose, sub-section menu(s). I have asked this of you ten pages ago, you wavered, now there's no excuse. :)

Ooh no.

Bullshit like "stand up, crouch, prone" all can be operated via "Stay/Keep low" with "Return to formation" copying the stance on the TL.

N-S-W-E-SW-SE-NW-NE watch directions would have to go as well - nobody uses those broken commands.

There has to be one, single radial in Iriqouis' opinion. You fiddling with taking away command abilities to make it simple will not be well received :)

I don't care, I'm looking out for the new guy on the block. BIS will decide what's viable. :)

Oh dear. An idea that is logical, obvious, useful, and yet Iriquois did not like it :) Whatever will we do about this? :)

You're aiming for RTS, ArmA is an FPS, thank you very much.

[dmarkwick 261]

*sigh* :)

Exactly what I thought, though any radial menu will have a remappable hotkey, I'd want it on the middle mouse button personally.

Doesn't matter where, as long as it's remappable. Personally the MMB would be too fiddly for me to hold down while I mouse around & use LMB.

You're saying that the examples, which we have provided with MadDogX are not enough for CQB/immediate area command? Be reasonable.

If all you wish for is immediate area command, but I think you'll find that most of us do not wish to lose the more comprehensive commands. It's one of the defining ArmA characteristics that makes it ArmA.

Provide clear layouts of what you intend on having on your Grandiose sub-rose, sub-section menu(s). I have asked this of you ten pages ago, you wavered, now there's no excuse. :)

Wavered? I have no intention of drawing pictures for you at your command. I think my descriptions are more than adequate. If you cannot imagine a 12-point layout with a central button, draw it yourself.

Bullshit like "stand up, crouch, prone" all can be operated via "Stay/Keep low" with "Return to formation" copying the stance on the TL.

N-S-W-E-SW-SE-NW-NE watch directions would have to go as well - nobody uses those broken commands.

By which I guess you mean that you don't use those commands.

I don't care, I'm looking out for the new guy on the block. BIS will decide what's viable. :)

Which is why I'm not too bothered about your simplification ideas :)

You're aiming for RTS, ArmA is an FPS, thank you very much.

It becomes an RTS because of the possibility of clicking an icon you can see anyway? Umad.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

:)

Doesn't matter where, as long as it's remappable. Personally the MMB would be too fiddly for me to hold down while I mouse around & use LMB.

That's because you're using an inferior activation method, there's a reason I had listed three possible ones involving the mouse. :)

ZOkBtVELu7c

Glorious PC Master Race.

If all you wish for is immediate area command, but I think you'll find that most of us do not wish to lose the more comprehensive commands.

And would you rather construct a convoluted radial with everything included at the expense of new players, who won't be able to intuitively tell an elbow from their backbone, figuratively speaking? :)

It's one of the defining ArmA characteristics that makes it ArmA.

Micromanaging retarded AI? I beg to differ. :)

Wavered? I have no intention of drawing pictures for you at your command. I think my descriptions are more than adequate. If you cannot imagine a 12-point layout with a central button, draw it yourself.

We can certainly imagine an expanded design of the proposed octagonal radial, yours containing not 8, but 12 partitions, but you're at once insisting on sub-menus on the same radial with 12 more on top of the first "level". Can't accept it till I see it in action. :)

By which I guess you mean that you don't use those commands.

Oh, in the context of micromanaging AI that doesn't seem to know when it's under fire - sure, I do tell them to go prone and cry for daddy, though should that be normal?

Do you want to incorporate all of the commands currently found in ArmA II onto the MOST EPIC radial menu? :) Please, at the very least, do list all of the commands that you wish to include.

Which is why I'm not too bothered about your simplification ideas :)

It becomes an RTS because of the possibility of clicking an icon you can see anyway? Umad.

It becomes an RTS if your own character movement, or concentration is completely diverted away from the threat at hand, either by breaking eye contact, or not being able to fire your weapon with Left Mouse button, seeing as it is the activation of choice for you. See Rainbow Six Raven Shield AI left-click activation radial command menu. :(

Truth is revealed in conflict, truth will be reveal at release of ArmA III. :)

By the way, Pliskin has you in his trap! Now, the dedicated weapons keys have full authority and subordination of the AI command menu and can safely relocate to the number row keys.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin