Controls Scheme & User Interface Feedback

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I told you it was a bad idea, and I explained why: It takes up too much screen space. Not trolling.

I understand that feeble minds can't envision refined iconography in its place in the same layout, which would probably reduce the size of the whole lot by 30-40%, but here's an idea for you,

[Nicholas 5]

I understand that feeble minds can't envision a refined iconography in its place in the same layout, which would probably reduce the size of the whole lot by 30-40%, but here's an idea for you,

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r212/LDMDX/ARMARoseMenuSmall_zps4801a231.jpg

That's MadDogX's example. What makes YOURS such a good one??

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

That's MadDogX's example. What makes YOURS such a good one??

Are you somewhat blind? Which part of,

Here's a substitute solution:

1) Implement a CQB AI command radial menu as outlined in the concepts of MadDogX and myself. Single hotkey activation & operation. (Middle Mouse Button?)

2) Implement a second AI command radial menu with 12-24 icons, which will include Formations, Alert States & other misc things. Single hotkey activation via a different one. (T key on the keyboard?)

Two keys, two separate radials - fluid operation on demand, hands on WASD everything is available in a comprehensive manner.

Do you not comprehend? Which part of MadDogX's CQB immediate area radial has formations and misc command?

You continue trolling, you're going on ignore.

Edit: Blocked.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Nicholas 5]

Are you retarded? Which part of,

Do you not comprehend? Which part of MadDogX's CQB immediate area radial has formations and misc command?

You continue trolling, you're going on ignore.

I'm not asking for solutions. I'm asking you what makes it such a good idea?

You posted this and this idea. What makes them so much better over alternatives?

Why can't you just answer the question?

Edited September 24, 2012 by Nicholas

[dmarkwick 261]

Hmm so one hotkey with subradials is poor, but two hotkeys for a radial each is good? oof :)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Hmm so one hotkey with subradials is poor, but two hotkeys for a radial each is good? oof :)

It's a beautiful solution, DMarkwick, you have to agree. That second radial has 6 out of 8 (9?) formations and we still have 6 partitions to spare. :)

The logic behind it, as you've probably noticed, is that the second one won't be used as often as the CQB AI command radial in the centre of the screen, which harbours all of the active commands. :)

Think of it as 1) Basic AI Command; 2) Advanced AI Command.

[Smurf 12]

It could be one radial for fast\action stuff (ROE, behavior, movement) and the complete list (as we have now) by a button press (Number 0 in the top row, IMO).

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

It could be one radial for fast\action stuff (ROE, behavior, movement)

I see no reason why ROE & behavior must be included on the same plane as movement - how often do people change alert states in combat? Not often.

and the complete list (as we have now) by a button press (Number 0 in the top row, IMO).

Those two radials, CQB & ROE/Formations, already encompass everything there is - tell me what's missing and we'll fix it.

[dmarkwick 261]

It's a beautiful solution, DMarkwick, you have to agree. That second radial has 6 out of 8 (9?) formations and we still have 6 partitions to spare. :)

The logic behind it, as you've probably noticed, is that the second one won't be used as often as the CQB AI command radial in the centre of the screen, which harbours all of the active commands. :)

It's a horrorshow I'm afraid. Even if you had presented it as a single linear list down one side it might have had more to recommend it, but using a hexagon for no reason... why? Think of the children, man.

It might help to go back a few steps, and realise a couple of salient facts:

BIS are not going to dump the command structure.

The command structure uses a 1-0 key setup.

Therefore a base 10+ radial is going to make sense in the face of this.

I suggested the 12-point clock radial with an extra central button, for the reasons I made earlier. I think, given the salient fcts above, that it makes most sense. The rest is just design, making it pretty, easy, intuitive and useful. Kind of like MadDogX's design but 12-segments, and perhaps elongated.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

It's a horrorshow I'm afraid. Even if you had presented it as a single linear list down one side it might have had more to recommend it, but using a hexagon for no reason... why? Think of the children, man.

Aesthetics and intuitiveness. Why not? Draw up some iconography, reduce size by 40%, voila.

BIS are not going to dump the command structure.

I'd like a quote on that.

The command structure uses a 1-0 key setup.

That's why nobody plays the game.

Therefore a base 10+ radial is going to make sense in the face of this.

Makes zero sense to have 10-level radial, when we have everything accomplished with a CQB + ROE ones. Try again. Or draw up 10 separate screens of the radial in action, explaining each function.

---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:18 ----------

You're piling up redundant complexity into the game in an illusion of grandeur.

[Nicholas 5]

Aesthetics and intuitiveness. Why not? Draw up some iconography, reduce size by 40%, voila.

Are you a designer? I'm sure it's probably not as simple as that.

I'd like a quote on that.

He said command structure, not command keys.

That's why nobody plays the game.

Last I checked, a lot of people play the game, it's just that they don't like the shoddy AI, bad ingame movement/animations, and a bad controls. Nothing to do with the command structure.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

It might help to go back a few steps, and realise a couple of salient facts:

BIS are not going to dump the command structure.

The command structure uses a 1-0 key setup.

Therefore a base 10+ radial is going to make sense in the face of this.

Skip to 10:10 RE AI interface. If they're wise, they'll streamline it enough for everyone to enjoy.

[Smurf 12]

I see no reason why ROE & behavior must be included on the same plane as movement - how often do people change alert states in combat? Not often.

How many times you used optins such as flank left\right, advance and so on? I've never used it. On the other hand, open\hold fire, stances ans such....

Anyway a radial design ask for quick and most used actions

______

Just throwing this here:

Red Orchestra 2 uses a 2 layer radial menu and is........ awful. Pic1 Pic2

CS:GO has a radial menu that can be operated with a mouse movement or numbers but its not a "hold to use" menu. Pic

America's Army 3 also has a nice solution for both command and weapons stuff: http://manual.americasarmy.com/index.php/Radial_Menu_System

And my favourite, PR:BF2's one: The most simple with options for both LMB and RMB wich also features lists when needed (targets? actions?) Pic1 Pic2 Pic3

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

How many times you used optins such as flank left\right, advance and so on? I've never used it. On the other hand, open\hold fire, stances ans such....

Anyway a radial design ask for quick and most used actions

Agreed, that's why my CQB radial didn't have them, here's the original post, http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?139228-Controls-Scheme-amp-User-Interface-Feedback&p=2227234&viewfull=1#post2227234

Full res: http://i45.tinypic.com/119p9id.jpg

Keep in mind this is CQB, the radial itself should be in the centre below the crosshair. List of functions and explanations is below, note that "Move to" won't have a context of "Get in" vehicles due to inability to order AI to move directly to a vehicle without boarding it, as shown on the example image:

1) Move to -> [context: Enemy -> "ATTACK ENEMY"; Friendly (wounded) -> "HEAL FRIENDLY"];

2) Fall back into formation;

3) Stop;

4) Suppressive fire;

5) Get in -> [context: Mines -> "DISARM; Doors/ladders -> "USE"; In a vehicle -> "DISEMBARK"];

Debated:

6) Disengage;

7) Take cover;

8) ?;

I might redo the example, properly reposition it in the middle, below the crosshair, update the commands and contexts, which cover pretty much anything.

---------- Post added at 22:48 ---------- Previous post was at 22:41 ----------

______

Just throwing this here:

Red Orchestra 2 uses a 2 layer radial menu and is........ awful. Pic1 Pic2

Agreed fully, Rainbow Six Raven Shield has multiple-layer radial to command AI - flop.

CS:GO has a radial menu that can be operated with a mouse movement or numbers but its not a "hold to use" menu. Pic

This is actually what we're looking for in a CQB immediate area AI command radial. With hold hotkey to open, ofc. :)

And my favourite, PR:BF2's one: The most simple with options for both LMB and RMB wich also features lists when needed (targets? actions?) Pic1 Pic2 Pic3

I'll review PR BF2 later. You didn't mention Crysis 1, so here it is,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOkBtVELu7c

Add 3 more icons with the same activation method and we have a CQB radial.

[dmarkwick 261]

Or draw up 10 separate screens of the radial in action, explaining each function.

I'll draw you exactly one single image which will suffice for all submenus. That's the point of it.

You're piling up redundant complexity into the game in an illusion of grandeur.

I'm piling up nothing, I'm working the already existing, and not-to-be-dropped, command structure into a workable GUI solution. You're throwing away functionality in the cause of making it easy for babies to play, and fantasising about your simplified GUI as though it means anything at all :)

And really, you don't need to spam the entire place with the same videos showing the same things. We can remember.

---------- Post added at 00:23 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------

Skip to 10:10 RE AI interface. If they're wise, they'll streamline it enough for everyone to enjoy.

Did you even listen to that BTW? Because their intention is made perfectly clear.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Move to -> [context: Enemy -> "ATTACK ENEMY"; Friendly (wounded) -> "HEAL FRIENDLY"];

Get in -> [context: Mines -> "DISARM; Doors/ladders -> "USE"; In a vehicle -> "DISEMBARK"];

I might redo the example, properly reposition it in the middle, below the crosshair, update the commands and contexts, which cover pretty much anything.

1) Updated the CQB radial:

Full resolution: http://i47.tinypic.com/of1v1d.jpg

Only 2 partitions, "GET IN" & "MOVE TO", have contexts and are explained in the quote above.

Doubled the number of commands present on CQB AI radial via the outer ones for the most used commands, so to order your unit to "Move" for an example, you depress the hotkey, swipe mouse forward and release the hotkey.

Inner octagon contains often-used, but not death-sensitive commands (including something from ROE).

Two ring octagon radial will require fine-tuning in terms of mouse sensitivity on BIS' part, size of the entire menu can be scaled 30, 50. Keep in mind this screenshot is 1280x720, and ignore the square - there's no octagon template in Paint. :)

______________________________

2) Here's the ROE/Formations radial:

Full resolution: http://i45.tinypic.com/2emom0k.jpg

Since the CQB one contains "ENGAGE AT WILL" & "DISENGAGE" - these two commands can be replaced with something else on the ROE radial.

Inclusion of particular commands, or contexts is fully debatable.

2.1) Updated, resized ROE radial:

Full resolution: http://i49.tinypic.com/20py4ja.jpg

Edit: On CQB radial: not for non-essential, inner commands, Nico, my boy. :)

Edited September 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Nicholas 5]

Doubled the number of commands present on CQB AI radial via the outer ones for the most used commands, so to order your unit to "Move" for an example, you depress the hotkey, swipe mouse forward and release the hotkey.

I didn't think adding anymore diagonal icons would work?

Any additional diagonal icons wouldn't work, you need clear, precise Left-Up-Down-Right movements in combat.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I didn't think adding anymore diagonal icons would work?

Well, you suggested more icons to be added around the main group of commands, I have reversed the solution - outer ring has main group commands, inner has often-used non-death sensitive ones.

With the outer ring you want to open the menu -> swipe in the general direction of the command -> release the hotkey and get an activation. See Crysis 1 example footage on the previous page.

With the inner ring you can afford more time to precisely position your invisible cursor. :)

Pliskin King Assimilator.

---------- Post added at 00:05 ---------- Previous post was at 00:02 ----------

P.S. If anyone is interested, they can refresh their memory on the current ArmA II squad command here, http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA_II_AI_Squad_Command

Edited September 25, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[rye1 21]

CQB radial you have a ? - The advance is on top, opposite that is ?... Opposite of advancing is pulling back, i.e. a retreat or breaking contact. Good work btw.

[Nicholas 5]

Well, you suggested more icons to be added around the main group of commands, I have reversed the solution - outer ring has main group commands, inner has often-used non-death sensitive ones.

But adding outside icons would require the user to have more precise mouse control. In a combat situation, this could become a hassle as users will want to give commands as quick as possible. I can see users overshooting the command that they intended to order.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

CQB radial you have a ? - The advance is on top, opposite that is ?... Opposite of advancing is pulling back, i.e. a retreat or breaking contact. Good work btw.

Yeah, pull back could have properties like "break contact & run like hell in the opposite direction". LOL

I've put this thing together with existing commands as to remain on topic. :)

---------- Post added at 00:23 ---------- Previous post was at 00:20 ----------

But adding outside icons would require the user to have more precise mouse control. In a combat situation, this could become a hassle as users will want to give commands as quick as possible.

Read my post again: that's why I placed main "must have" commands to be intuitively outside of the inner radial, so you could activate the outer ring the same way Crysis 1 example has shown on the previous page.

I can see users overshooting the command that they intended to order.

Not if BIS fine-tune the sensitivity of the inner ring, or somehow increase the proportions of the icons in relation to the outer one - anyway, concept remains the same.

You could even elongate the whole menu horizontally to have space in order to further increase the size of the icons, both inner and outer.

[rye1 21]

Yeah, pull back could have properties like "break contact & run like hell in the opposite direction". LOL

ONE... MOVE TO THAT................ RUN AWAY!

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Just had a thought: that third hexagon on the ROE/Formations radial could have player states and requests like, "Fuel", "Repairs", "Medical assistance".

http://i49.tinypic.com/20py4ja.jpg

:)

[Smurf 12]

1) Updated the CQB radial:

...

Honestly, none of these appears to be simple or fast to use. The inner-outer thing works really bad in RO2 (that is what I was trying to say in last post; might be bad implementation by TWI too) and I can't recall any other game using it so I don't have a good impression over it. And the RVS sub-menus is what I'm aiming for.

Also the concept of

you press the hotkey, swipe mouse forward and release the hotkey

is not good. Giving an order without user's confirmation (aka click or whatever)? Imagine a scenario where you are trying to give orders to your squad and an enemy appears right in front of you; You release the key to shoot but also give an order that might be wrong because your cursor was in in the wrong cell at that moment. Or are you suggesting that you should shoot with the menu open?

Just saying, cause clearly we have very different concept for this.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Honestly, none of these appears to be simple or fast to use. The inner-outer thing works really bad in RO2 (that is what I was trying to say in last post; might be bad implementation by TWI too)

Bad tuning, crap layout and oversized icons is their problem. For the outer ring you'd have Crysis-like efficiency, check the previous page.

P.S. There are no sub-menues, sub-levels, sub-radials, or sub-roses in either CQB or ROE/Formations AI command menus - What You See Is What You Get.

is not good. Giving an order without user's confirmation (aka click or whatever)? Imagine a scenario where you are trying to give orders to your squad and an enemy appears right in front of you; You release the key to shoot but also give an order that might be wrong because your cursor was in in the wrong cell at that moment. Or are you suggesting that you should shoot with the menu open?

Activation method is debatable, if you don't have your faith in BIS to conjure up Crysis 1-like precision in the CQB radial menu, you could go with Hold hotkey -> mouse over -> Left click.

In fact, such a method with a little modification would be preferable on the ROE/Formations radial: Hold hotkey to open menu -> Mouse over -> Left click to put squad into "Column" formation, then mouse over "Aware", click that, release hotkey.

P.S. By the initial comment of "Pressing the hotkey", I meant Hold of course. Just check the previous page for the Crysis 1 example, will you.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin