Will Bohemia finally improve ARMA's PVP to attract New Players?

[BasileyOne 10]

no, ballistic was still based basically on ordnance ammunition config, no matter what else differ :[

so if you load RPK74 45clip mag into AK12 or AEK971 or AH94 or TKB-0146, it will sucks equally as original RPK74 does with that ammo. which isn't ok, IMO.

hope BIS will fix that in Arma3.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

BasileyOne, my muzzle velocity comment was to acknowledge that ArmA is indeed an FPS, and a very twitchy one at that. The controls are already FPS-like with WASD, E/Q lean, Z-X-C as standard (for Swat 4/Rainbow Six RS at least), the only remaining impedance is the weapons/equipment control and selection mechanic, which is COMPLETELY irrational, since the whole UI is built around the AI command interface, which takes up the 0-9 number keys.

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Peoples' eyes flare up when they see this vid; most of the above is already in ArmA III by the looks of it, except for the back-to-wall cover. Add dedicated weapon keys along to these animations, and then we can talk about having some semblance of PvP community. Bonus vid,

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Whole dynamic stance operation is executed via CTRL+WASD & Shift+Z/X/C AFAIR - you will not want to be punished by the controls with scroll list weapon selection and F-cycle on top of this.

Proof of concept, can be applied directly to frag, smoke grenades with them being on a dedicated key, as would be the sidearm,

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Speed of the animation is debatable. The primary weapon can be positioned sideways in relation to the body and not completely straight down, along with a shorter sling - both of these can be used to ensure, that the long barrel rifles don't hit the ground while crouched, as seen on the following video,

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Smookie probably has some ideas on what to do with prone position and handguns.

Update: Here's the current ArmA 3 weapon transition animation, from primary weapon to sidearm:

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From sidearm to primary,

The primary is still being slung behind the right shoulder, it's still on a sling - I wonder why Smookie decided to change it, seems overly complex and unnatural.

Found an interesting quote by Smookie,

Have already turned down the transition time absolutely minimum of my acceptance. Current rifle to pistol swap time (full-animation) is 1,10 s (and you are able to fire from around 0,53 s). Therefore the current animation is a compromise between gameplay benefits and visual look (so it isnt just "take the grip and attach rifle to the slot").

Nevertheless if u liked secondary transition option, like for instance in my pvp anim pack, it would also have its limitations to be plausible (so no running with weapon hanging on a sling or very ugly hold of the weapon, should it be left in the off-hand variant animation), plus obviously it consumes a lot of resources and time which can be distributed better.

In the end - I saw a lot in ArmA gameplay over MP and I seriously doubt the majority of complainers would even take advantage of this if it was even faster. I wouldnt :)

That explains it, and I can see how running with a pistol would make it look awkward. There's gotta be a solution out there, though. How about keeping your rifle against your chest with your left hand, while the handgun is in the right one while running? Upon stopping, or slowing down to a walk, the character returns to both hand grip of the pistol. ; )

The following is in reply to the above quote,

And I got a question about that pistol swap... why'd you have the weapon on a sling in your mod, but still use the weapon on back animation for ArmA3. As it currently looks in game, it's way too fast putting the primary weapon on your back while you take out your pistol. As you did with your mod, you could tackle both the rifle to pistol transition time AND have a more realistic swap by having the rifle on an invisible sling. Because putting the rifle on your back defeats the tactical advantage of switching to your pistol instead of reloading...

bottom line... the "secondary transition option" seems better, looks better, etc. Hopefully someone can mod that in... :p

We call it "a higher force" in my country :) It would quite complicate the things for newcomers i guess. But if you bitch strong enough about it after Alpha i guess you will change the minds:)

You know what you have to do, people, if you want the original transition back. :dancehead:

Edited September 18, 2012 by Placebo

[BasileyOne 10]

well actually controlling AI' take/use about 18 keys in my case.

and generally setting up keyboard in Arma2 was longest part of setup/installation - takes about hour to complete.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

well actually controlling AI' take/use about 18 keys in my case.

Technically, default AI command interface is 24 keys = 0-9 + Space + backspace + F1-F12, but the number row 0-9 keys are the most vital ones, that is why we still have crap weapon selection and operation mechanism, which makes (CQB) PvP impossible.

---------- Post added at 20:23 ---------- Previous post was at 20:22 ----------

setting up keyboard in Arma2 was longest part of setup/installation - takes about hour to complete.

Never done that myself. Difference from Armed Assault 1 to ArmA II for me was Optics to V key, Step over to Y and thumb button on the 4th mouse for toggling to 3rd person view. :P

For new players, default aircraft, vehicle, infantry controls are great, the only problem is the lack of dedicated weapon selection and operation keys in the scheme, like Sidearms, Grenade types, dedicated Satchels/explosives key, dedicated Primary weapon key, a key for the under barrel GL like M203/GP-25, dedicated AT/RPG key et cetera.

Funny thing actually, binocs and NVGs have their own keys, and yet they are not death-sensitive in combat, while those B & N keys could be used for often-employed equipment and weapons.

Update: To reiterate on why I'm talking about weapon selection/controls and SMK animations in this thread: PvP is a formula of competitive missions using balanced assets, missions ranging from current Warfare CTI to TvT, to Celery's future ArmA III creations (CHECK!), plus flexible movement system & animations, thank you Smookie (CHECK!), plus finally, weapon controls and operation (NOT CHECK/UNKWN!).

Clunkyness has always been the bane of PvP in ArmA, even when we had great PvP missions. So there you have it. :) Here's another great demo of SMK,

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Combat against AI. The presenter could've acted more rapidly in the back-to-wall scenarios, but since they will not be in ArmA III, the rest looks very functional and useful! Keep in mind, that as of E3/GC demos, ArmA III doesn't have the blind fire stance, instead they have shown us extended Lean with CTRL+Q/E - Source, http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/arma-3-e3-hands-on-preview-8-questions-answered/

How do the new animations affect close quarters combat? (@craig_vg)

You heard it here: Arma 3 is balanced for double lean. The new stance animations operate as modifiers. Like Arma 2, you still hit Q or E to lean, X to crouch, and Z to go prone. But you can take an additional step left or right by hold Ctrl and hitting Q or E again. These adjustments are specific to each stance, so if you’re crouched and hit Ctrl + W, you’ll poke your head and upper body up a bit. If you’re prone, you can twist to the right by hitting Ctrl + E.

There’s at least one ridiculous animation, too: when you’re prone, if you tap Ctrl + W, you go into this “last stand†kind of pose, you lie almost flat on your back, cradling the gun on your left forearm with the barrel pointed forward. And you can fire while doing this. It looks lazy and heroic and hilarious. I didn’t experience too much CQC in the demo, but mostly I’d expect these commands to increase the viability of fighting from windows/openings. They definitely let me peek around corners without taking awkward, stuttering steps, as is often the case in A2. We’ll finally have the movement flexibility to pop in and out of cover without being at a disadvantage.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[cadmium77 16]

I've tried online and even in well orgaized clans the air power totally dominates and the ground troops just show up to mop up.

My best arma experiences come from my own editor built scenarios where I command large forces of 200 or so troops or from Planned Assault computer generated scenarios.

[rulie-JDF- 10]

I would like to see more PvP (AAS) please. Don't change anything to accommodate the new folks(i.e. BF3, CoD, MW3 and *coughs* Counter Strike Source/GO crowds). The PvP maps don't have to be massive for AAS, 10 or 20 square km's with at least five to seven re-capturable PSP's (flag-base capture zones) would do just fine. I am fairly new to ArmA 2 and OA but not new to FPS'ers or AAS, since i used to play the game (which no-one has mentioned here yet) that it came from according to this link for about six years.

http://pvpscene.armaholic.com/wiki/doku.php?id=english:game_modes:advance_and_secure

:cool:

Edited September 19, 2012 by rulie-JDF-

[BasileyOne 10]

ALL games default keyboard layout[or even absence of some binding/feats]sucks, and games WITHOUT ability to tweak key layout - sucks especially, they actually also stink ![crappy console ports !]

point is, most players use 2% of keys 95% of time, but they REALLY need rest of them.

and for BETTER use any of them, they SHOULD be tweaked upon THEIR needs/habits/approach.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

ALL games default keyboard layout[or even absence of some binding/feats]sucks, and games WITHOUT ability to tweak key layout - sucks especially, they actually also stink ![crappy console ports !]

point is, most players use 2% of keys 95% of time, but they REALLY need rest of them.

and for BETTER use any of them, they SHOULD be tweaked upon THEIR needs/habits/approach.

That's my point exactly, crappy one-dimensional scroll lists have no place in PvP, or any other death-life sensitive scenarios. :)

[-Paladin- 10]

ALL games default keyboard layout[or even absence of some binding/feats]sucks, and games WITHOUT ability to tweak key layout - sucks especially, they actually also stink ![crappy console ports !]

point is, most players use 2% of keys 95% of time, but they REALLY need rest of them.

and for BETTER use any of them, they SHOULD be tweaked upon THEIR needs/habits/approach.

Maybe combine it with the Combat mode. Safe, Danger, Combat, Stealth.

The options you get from the scroll menu depends on what kind of mode you are, for player and AI.

Lets say you approach a house as example.

You want to enter it through the door. behind the door is a chair.

Safe mode:

You are at the door you get the option to open it like every human do and you step normal inside, you step to the chair and get the option to sit down.

Danger mode:

You are at the door you check for traps you kick the door open rush in the room check a corner.

Combat mode:

You blast the door or kick it open or shoot it open you throw a grand inside you shoot a mag in every corner.

Stealth mode:

You check the door and open it slowly without making a noise you close it behind you and you rush in a dark corner.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Maybe combine it with the Combat mode. Safe, Danger, Combat, Stealth.

The options you get from the scroll menu depends on what kind of mode you are, for player and AI.

Lets say you approach a house as example.

You want to enter it through the door. behind the door is a chair.

Safe mode:

You are at the door you get the option to open it like every human do and you step normal inside, you step to the chair and get the option to sit down.

Danger mode:

You are at the door you check for traps you kick the door open rush in the room check a corner.

Combat mode:

You blast the door or kick it open or shoot it open you throw a grand inside you shoot a mag in every corner.

Stealth mode:

You check the door and open it slowly without making a noise you close it behind you and you rush in a dark corner.

Is ArmA an RPG now? Wouldn't work, and is even worse than the scroll lists for weaponry, this is a PvP thread.

[batto 17]

Is ArmA an RPG now? Wouldn't work, and is even worse than the scroll lists for weaponry, this is a PvP thread.

I fail to see what such controls improvement has to do with RPG or weapon selection. And AFAIK you started to discuss game controls here.

[mihikle 2]

It's called Project Reality!

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I fail to see what such controls improvement has to do with RPG or weapon selection. And AFAIK you started to discuss game controls here.

So these are FPS controls now?

Lets say you approach a house as example.

You want to enter it through the door. behind the door is a chair.

Safe mode:

You are at the door you get the option to open it like every human do and you step normal inside, you step to the chair and get the option to sit down.

Danger mode:

You are at the door you check for traps you kick the door open rush in the room check a corner.

Combat mode:

You blast the door or kick it open or shoot it open you throw a grand inside you shoot a mag in every corner.

Stealth mode:

You check the door and open it slowly without making a noise you close it behind you and you rush in a dark corner.

Put it in an AI thread and put a fork in it, when I approach a door, I will decide how to open it, either by kicking it down and guns blazing, or crouching up and peeking around the corner - all with existing controls, not need for arbitrary "modes".

Even Rainbow Six's "scroll to gently open door" sucks ass, when tapping the use key and then leaning around the edge is much more efficient.

[batto 17]

So these are FPS controls now?

Put it in an AI thread and put a fork in it

I fail to see what such controls improvement has to do with AI.

, when I approach a door, I will decide how to open it, either by kicking it down and guns blazing, or crouching up and peeking around the corner - all with existing controls, not need for arbitrary "modes".

Such "combat" modes can multiply available keybindings and possible interactions by number of modes. Think of Crysis-like suit mode switching.

inb4 you keep being ignorant a$$ and tell me to go play cyrsis

Even Rainbow Six's "scroll to gently open door" sucks ass, when tapping the use key and then leaning around the edge is much more efficient.

And that's why different "combat" modes for different interactions. Gently opening door in R6 is for throwing flashbang inside and quickly closing door again.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I fail to see what such controls improvement has to do with AI.

The modes listed are AI alert states, so which of the options,

Safe mode:

You are at the door you get the option to open it like every human do and you step normal inside, you step to the chair and get the option to sit down.

Danger mode:

You are at the door you check for traps you kick the door open rush in the room check a corner.

Combat mode:

You blast the door or kick it open or shoot it open you throw a grand inside you shoot a mag in every corner.

Stealth mode:

You check the door and open it slowly without making a noise you close it behind you and you rush in a dark corner.

Do you get when you personally go to the bathroom? :D

tell me to go play cyrsis

No, I will tell you to play an RPG.

This idea appeared out of nowhere, literally, and it will be put back where it came from.

[batto 17]

The modes listed are AI alert states, so which of the options,

Do you get when you personally go to the bathroom? :D

No, I will tell you to play an RPG.

This idea appeared out of nowhere, literally, and it will be put back where it came from.

Whatever you say. These modes define interactions and I don't intend to discuss it with you anymore.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Whatever you say. These modes define interactions

Four modes to open a toilet door? I'd like to see some example of implementation in other FPS titles, if you will. :)

[rufor 1]

In order for BI to improve PvP they would first need to make ArmA have controls that are actually fluent. Example:

You're ontop of a BTR-80 then you get ambushed, in arma you would simply do eject and then either A. randomly perish for no apparent reason or B. get off and for some reason wait 5 seconds to be able to move and then if you managed to live you would have to sprint to some lone tree since everything is 100% flat. In real life, you would simply push off the BTR and go prone to fend them off using the nearby cover.

[onlyrazor 11]

In order for BI to improve PvP they would first need to make ArmA have controls that are actually fluent. Example:

You're ontop of a BTR-80 then you get ambushed, in arma you would simply do eject and then either A. randomly perish for no apparent reason or B. get off and for some reason wait 5 seconds to be able to move and then if you managed to live you would have to sprint to some lone tree since everything is 100% flat. In real life, you would simply push off the BTR and go prone to fend them off using the nearby cover.

You know they *are* working on that, right? :p

[rufor 1]

I don't think it will drastically change in ArmA3, its still the only clunky ArmA engine with a littlebit more freedom of movement afaik. I think DICE did soldier movement well with Frostbite 2. Soldiers actually move like human beings and not sticks.

[iratus 71]

Some FPS on the other hand go a bit too far with that fluid thing, especially in regards to mounting vehicles. In some of them a player is able to mount a tank driving by at high speed simply by pressing [E] at the right time as if he was

. This may be okay for certain FPS, but IMO would not fit into ArmA (not only because of immersion but also because of gameplay reasons).

[rufor 1]

Some FPS on the other hand go a bit too far with that fluid thing, especially in regards to mounting vehicles. In some of them a player is able to mount a tank driving by at high speed simply by pressing [E] at the right time as if he was

. This may be okay for certain FPS, but IMO would not fit into ArmA (not only because of immersion but also because of gameplay reasons).

That is because Battlefield is a fun teamplay game not a simulator. I meant the movement of the soldier is beyond anything imaginable in the ArmA engine simply because it actually feels human and not artificial like ArmA. Also you CAN mount a tank moving at 50kmH in ArmA with abit of scroll menu skill ;)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

That is because Battlefield is a fun teamplay game not a simulator. I meant the movement of the soldier is beyond anything imaginable in the ArmA engine simply because it actually feels human and not artificial like ArmA. Also you CAN mount a tank moving at 50kmH in ArmA with abit of scroll menu skill ;)

Hey, rufor, there are no vehicle seats in Battlefield 3, though, correct? You can operate a tank with WASD and the turret with the mouse from a single position AFAIK.

In ArmA III, BIS could do in-vehicle interaction and changing of positions via the 0-9 number row keys, tap Key 1 for Driver's seat; Key 2 for Gunner's seat; Key 3 for Commander's seat; Key 4 to "Get out", etc. :) Full layout and info here, http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?139228-Controls-Scheme-amp-User-Interface-Feedback&p=2216817&viewfull=1#post2216817

To factor in realism, a several seconds transition delay with a black screen could be added between the above actions - Very relevant to PvP: balance would be kept, as well as authenticity. :)

Inspired by Crysis 1, though it does have instant swap between seats.

[Nicholas 5]

Hey, rufor, there are no vehicle seats in Battlefield 3, though, correct? You can operate a tank with WASD and the turret with the mouse from a single position AFAIK.

I believe there is a commander seat. It's assigned to the number row key exactly as you are explaining. Which I'm sure you've mentioned in nearly every thread already.

[-Paladin- 10]

Four modes to open a toilet door? I'd like to see some example of implementation in other FPS titles, if you will. :)

Yep If we keep like its now you have to scroll throu all modes to open that toilet and as a bonus the swap to side arm and shoulder main weapon and what ever command is put in your action menu. This takes the fluid out of fluid game play. with this mode changer you get only the appropriate actions on top of the action menu or or only what dose fit in this moment. How likely it is that you siting on your toilet (your a funny guy) decide to make push ups? and get this as your top action in your action menu? Would it be much more convenient to have wipe your butt action first or read newspaper listed.And not some Numerical or alphabetical order or anarchy action layout? No Shift, ALT combinations why still holding WASD with left hand and with right the mouse just one button to control them all.