Aiming Accuracy in Arma 3

[-Coulum- 35]

“We also aim to improve weapon behaviour, which means tweaking recoil mechanics, precision and weapon sway...â€

This is one line in the recent devblog that got me really excited. New animations are great but some of them are going to be purely aesthetic. This quote seems to indicate that some game-play changes are going to be made concerning weapons sway.

So my question to you guys is, Do you guys think aiming mechanics should be made so that medium(150) - Long(1000+) shots require more concentration, skill and time to perform than is currently needed in a2 aiming? this could be, but is not limited to more weapon sway, realistic breathing simulation, slower alignment of the sights etc.etc. It doesn't really matter how, I am just wondering if you think shooting should be made more involved and engaging than in arma 2. If you believe arma 2 has already nailed it why do you think that it is good already? If you think there needs to be change what do you think would be the ideal improvements and why? I am interested to know what you guys think. Vote and discuss.

(11:25 - 11:50)

PS. If you have the time, skim through some of the discussion. I think there are many good point against and for change, maybe they will change your opinion...

Edited April 13, 2012 by -Coulum-

[laxemann 1673]

Yup, it should be harder to land a good hit, if you ask me.

VBS2 pretty much nailed it just by using the "figure of eight"-breathing.

[giorgygr 61]

On the other hand (although this matter already taken too much conversation in another topic) if shooting ingame will get

harder-it will be far easier to shoot a real gun than 'the other guy' in PvP (..and not only..) :D

[-Coulum- 35]

I am personally all for making shooting harder. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't be able to make accurate shots but that it will take much longer to line up those shots. Never played VBS but the system they have seems pretty good. The smooth swaying, real breath control, and increased sway means it will actually require skill and proper timing to shoot accurately. currently shooting is basically point, adjust for drop and shoot. Things like holding breath and timing shots really have no effect and it means less skill is required to shoot. Many argue that they can shoot as accurately in real life as in arma or even better. but the fact is, shooting on a range and shooting in real war are different for obvious reasons. This is demonstrated by real soldiers. I'm sure most soldiers are very good on the shooting range, but we still have the incredibly insane bullet to kill ratio. something like 1000:1.

And this will also even out the field when facing ai. Right now most of us decrease their accuracy to get "longer firefights". If we make the ai so inaccurate and say it is realistic wouldn't it also be only fair and realistic to make shooting just as hard for ourselves?

I feel that making it harder to shoot will also increase the amount of teamwork and tactics required for succes and thus make the game more fun and realistic.

At the very least, I think it would be nice to have a scripting command that allows us to adjust the sway a player experiences.

Edited April 8, 2012 by -Coulum-

[maturin 12]

How does VBS breath control work? If you have RMB bound to Optics, what do you press to hold your breath?

[Whirly 1]

I'm sure most soldiers are very good on the shooting range, but we still have the incredibly insane bullet to kill ratio. something like 1000:1

This is because enemy targets are often indistinct or invisible, seen only for a short time, and rarely remain uncovered for long. Squad members are trained to identify a target 'area' quickly and place a high volume of fire on it, even though no enemy personnel may be visible.

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[maturin 12]

But really, that guy must like changing barrels.

[rye1 21]

I believe some of your suggestions are great. That will make it harder to engage longer distance targets. The way it is now is a bit too 'easy'.

If this game is really more focus on longer range engagements then this should be a good thing, no?

In my opinion the only way this would work is if the AI are under the same parameters, they must have their own accuracy barriers (Suppressive fire script idea relates).

I believe for the base rifleman this is great news. For the different types of attachments I think it could be modified for increased or decreased capabilities in certain scenarios, i.e. Close Quarters.

Smooth swaying would also increase abilities in Close Quarters, allowing the combat pace animation to be more fluid and accessible rather than a counter-tactic, death-trap.

For snipers and designated marksmen I think this could be a big hit. I'd love to see a realistic breathing system, heart rate sound and system. At the same time I'd hope to see things that can put this to more of an advantage like stances that will slow breathing, bipods that will steady aim, etc.

Wasn't Vietnam way more than 1000:1? Yes it was. Last time I heard some figures got up to 1,000,000:1. Yes, one million to one.

It all depends on your environment, the enemy and the changing technologies and skills (generations) around you.

But if you think of your average soldier, more rounds are put down range in suppression rather than in actually aiming at someone.

[-Coulum- 35]

Wasn't Vietnam way more than 1000:1? Yes it was. Last time I heard some figures got up to 1,000,000:1. Yes, one million to one.

It all depends on your environment, the enemy and the changing technologies and skills (generations) around you.

But if you think of your average soldier, more rounds are put down range in suppression rather than in actually aiming at someone.

Yes like Whirly pointed out, these ratios are often because the enemy is obscured. In the jungles of vietnam I am this obscurity happened often. add the fact that m16 were full auto and its not so hard to believe. such an insane ratio.

[Whirly 1]

Often it only takes one shot, it really just depends on the situation at hand.

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[rye1 21]

Seen these videos. Sure, a lot of videos I've seen of 7.62 upwards are one hitters. But that's shot placement, wound ballistic capability.

Accuracy being harder, and an enemy taking multiple hits may mean more of them die via bleeding out - just like reality. It may prolong firefights, give us something to be worried about. Possibilities of injured - more likely to camp (Speaking of which, more injured animations would be great: Limping, hopping). I'm just stating this because it's a big part of the game, it's a general topic and it can change it universally when it comes to firefights.

Some people may not like that due to having to get multiple hits and already finding it hard. All I can say is grab a really good mouse and create some settings for long v short range. :)

[-Coulum- 35]

In my opinion sway and breathing should be like VBS 2. the sway is much smoother, slower and more predictable than in arma but there is more of it. This means it is actually pretty easy to shoot accurately but it requires some time and concentration to do so. just like in real life and unlike the simple point and click in arma. The breathing creates most of this sway and can be held for several seconds to significantly decrease sway. I would also say it would be neat if you had to time when you held your breath to reduce sway more. If you hold your breath as you inhale (when your gun reaches the top of the its figure eight) reduction in sway would be minimal. If you held your breath as you exhale (When the gun reaches the bottom of its figure eight) there would be much less sway. Once again this will not make it hard to be accurate, it will just require more attention and skill.

On top of this VBS breathing and sway I think that it would be a good idea to make it so after certain movements your weapon sway increases for a brief period of time - maybe 2 -3 seconds. After moving, bringing up the sights, reloading, swiveling suddenly, the barrel would start to sway and would continue to sway less and less until 3 seconds is up and the default sway is all that is left. This sway would not be that significant however. anything closer than 50 metres would be easy to hit to make close combat easy and possible, but it would force you to wait a little while before lineing up accurate shots at range, which in my opinion is perfectly reasonable. Of course if you don't want to wait you can spray and pray or try and compensate for the sway, creating more inaccurate but suppressive fire like in real life.

This is because enemy targets are often indistinct or invisible, seen only for a short time, and rarely remain uncovered for long. Squad members are trained to identify a target 'area' quickly and place a high volume of fire on it, even though no enemy personnel may be visible.

Yes you are absolutely right. But in arma these realistic types of firefights involving area fire, suppressive fire etc. rarely if ever occur. In arma it is more efficient to snipe than to do area fire. There are many resons (lack of vegetation, camoflauge etc.) for this but I think one of them is the fact that weapons are to easy to aim quickly, even at far ranges. This means that even though targets are "seen only for a short time, and rarely remain uncovered for long" they are still easy to kill because in arma you can have your gun up and ready and be fully accurate with it in around a second. second to bring up the sights, second to aim, bang, bang, bang. you can easily kill someone who has only exposed himself for a mere three seconds with a trusty m16 + aimpoint from 150 - 200 metres out. And I ask you do you think this resembles realistic firefights. to me its more like a sniper fight... but fought with aimpoints instead of real magnification.

If something like what I suggested above was added I think there would be less of this snap shooting at range and more area targeting because people won't be able to shoot quickly and accurately at distant targets as easily or effectively. they will have to take the time to aim -- which may be too long as the enemy dives into cover. From there you will be forced to perform area fire to suppress the targets. This system will prevent quick snap shooting and thus create units being "seen only for a short time, and rarely remain uncovered for long" not being killed right away and will get the chance to hide, resulting in more area fire like you say happens in reality.

Often it only takes one shot, it really just depends on the situation at hand.

Once again you are right. But to add, usually it is one well aimed shot. Currently there is really not much skill to shooting so it is far to easy to make every shot a well aimed shot. Keep in mind by making shooting harder like mentioned above, it will not make one shot kills impossible or even rare. it will just require more concentration, skill, time and timing to perform these one well aimed shots... like in reality. I personally think that not only would it make firefights better but it would make sniping sooo much more fun and rewarding. controlling breath, timing your shot etc.etc. would make each shot an art and would mean that some people would naturally be better than others resulting in specialization amongst players unlike today where really, anyone can pick up a sniper and take someone else out from 500 metres away with a couple shots.

Obviously I personally thin that adding more complex shooting system could really help make gameplay much more interesting. and it wouldn't exactly take away your ability to get one shot kills. It would just make them require time, skill and concentration...

Well anyways I think that enough of my rambling for one night:p Shit i really did babble on for a while O'well I'm not going back to try and shorten it. hope I got my point across though.

[Whirly 1]

Yes you are absolutely right. But in arma these realistic types of firefights involving area fire, suppressive fire etc. rarely if ever occur. In arma it is more efficient to snipe than to do area fire.

When the enemy AI is firing from buildings the freindly AI always lay a large volume of area fire, but maybe this is because I use ACE 2. Admittedly it's been a long time since I played with vanilla settings.

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[2nd ranger 282]

Yeah but the point is, if that was a human player then there'd be no need for all that fire because you'd be able to hit him fairly easily, particularly using a rifle. The AI's accuracy can already be tweaked. This is about making it more difficult for humans. This is why suppressive fire is currently pretty moot in Arma (I mean even if it worked properly), because you can normally see the enemy and hit him with a few rounds.

If nothing else, certainly using sniper weapons should be made more difficult. I like to snipe but feel kind of cheap doing it, because it's not hard at all when all you have to do is adjust your zero with a keypress.

[Whirly 1]

Yeah but the point is, if that was a human player then there'd be no need for all that fire because you'd be able to hit him fairly easily, particularly using a rifle.

Ah, I see your point now (and Coulum's), and it's a good one. My bad....smacks self upside head. :)

[metalcraze 290]

Please support this ticket if you are interested in adding more complexity to shooting, namely breathing from VBS2 which is pretty cool and realistic. If you haven't played JCove-Lite or don't own VBS2 - think Hitman 2 sniping, but with a bit less weapon swaying.

Holding your breath must mean something, as there is almost no weapon swaying in ArmA2! If you think it may be too much - remember that breathing affects your vision through optics more, while with (iron)sights it isn't as noticeable at all. This will solve the "laser-snipers" issue too.

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/25486

Edited April 8, 2012 by metalcraze

[Bittersweet 10]

I'm not sure they got fully automatic firing completely right in Arma2. Take a look at FPSRussia firing an M240 from the shoulder and hip while standing. There's no way you could maintain that accuracy in Arma2 without going prone, even out to 10m.

I think the best way to simulate full automatic recoil is by increasing the mouse input averaging (similarly to when you put mouse smoothing to it's highest setting). So when firing automatic with 7.62x51mm standing, the mouse should feel like molasses, rather than crisp. You could still have recoil drifting, but just not as much as in Arma2.

[dmarkwick 261]

Well guys VBS2 style breathing is all well & good for the forum regulars, but you have to bear in mind that BIS will make ArmA3 first & foremost as a game. I'd suggest some sort of "realsim module" that adds in things like breathing, encumbrance, exhaustion etc. Or perhaps as a top-end difficulty setting same as map markers etc, but I suspect that list would get quite long :)

[-Coulum- 35]

Ah, I see your point now (and Coulum's), and it's a good one. My bad....smacks self upside head.

Glad to hear it. Your video actually supports my point. If we are willing to degrade the ai's aiming to shit (which is essentially what ace does) than why is it unreasonable to at least make it significantly harder for the human player as well. I feel really cheap when an ai unloads on me from 150 metres away, misses, and then I nonchanantly turn around and shoot him with one shot, without having to use any effort whatsoever.

@Bittersweet That has more to do with reoil than accuracy but I guess they are sort of connected. I think that when recoil is concerned, the weight of the gun should be taken into account. That is why the guy in this vid doesn't seem to be experiencing much. The wieght of the m249 deadens much of the recoil resulting in less of a bump backwards against the shoulder and the muzzle rise that creates. that being said I think that if he made any sudden movements he would probably loose control of that recoil and what little accuracy he had would be totally lost. So maybe making recoil more extensive when suddenly moving the mouses will properly simulate this. I really don't know. I think currently the recoil is fair enough and encourages you to use your weapon the way it was meant to be used. Your idea of making the mouse less sensitive while firing might work but honestly I am not sure how that would turn out. You would have some pretty damn accurate machine gun fire being shot off. Never personally fired anything bigger than assault rifles so I can't really comment on this.

But what do you guys think of making it so after certain movements or events your weapon sway temporarily increases for 3 maybe 4 seconds to represent the time it takes to steady your aim. This would occur after moving, bringing up the sights, moving your weapon suddenly, and having rounds snap nearby. I think it would be a small change that could have a surprisingly large and good effect on gameplay. It would be kind of like in games like ghost recon, where after the mention movements dispersion increases -- except in arma it would be sway. Of course this would be ontop of VBS 2 sway and aiming.

@metalcraze - voted already. really hope its in arma 3.

Edited April 8, 2012 by -Coulum-

[Bittersweet 10]

Actually, I take back what I said about firing the M240, just tested it in-game and I can fire it like FPSRussia does.

They should motion capture firing each weapon with a real operator and extract the metrics to build an accurate profile for each weapon.

[Guest]

Well guys VBS2 style breathing is all well & good for the forum regulars, but you have to bear in mind that BIS will make ArmA3 first & foremost as a game. I'd suggest some sort of "realsim module" that adds in things like breathing, encumbrance, exhaustion etc.

Exactly, dont forget it is supposed to be a game. The option of having the ability to create a difficulty is a good thought tough.

BI should concentrate on staying close to the game genre while maintaining this being a milsim, the community can make things different if they wish to do so.

That is at least my opinion :)

[metalcraze 290]

So if BIS is to add breathing that will make easy 1 shot snipe kills with M4 next to impossible - it will stop ArmA from being a game?

What will it be then? And why VBS2 is not a game?

But what do you guys think of making it so after certain movements or events your weapon sway temporarily increases for 3 maybe 4 seconds to represent the time it takes to steady your aim. This would occur after moving, bringing up the sights, moving your weapon suddenly, and having rounds snap nearby. I think it would be a small change that could have a surprisingly large and good effect on gameplay. It would be kind of like in games like ghost recon, where after the mention movements dispersion increases -- except in arma it would be sway. Of course this would be ontop of VBS 2 sway and aiming.

1-2 seconds are enough but even then you will see people whining that "CQB is broken" because you can't just suddenly raise a weapon and blow an enemy up close away like you unfortunately can do now.

I'm all for it of course.

[-Coulum- 35]

@Dmarkwick - I don't understand how vbs style shooting will be that complex. your weapon is now swaying more, its pretty easy to use timing to compensate for that. If you press the hold breath key you will have less sway for a couple of seconds. make em count. I think even a cod player could understand that pretty easily. If there was anything more complex ie.(holding breath when exhaling results better than when inhaling) you don't have to even mention this. players will be able to get by without it and if they want to take the extra step to make themselves even more accurate they can research it or hopefully use one of the many tutorials to learn how to master it. I really don't see how it is that overly complicated.

That being said, I wouldn't mind it as a difficulty option. as long as its there somewhere. But I think that there would be a lot of these difficulty settings if we did this to every feature that might actually challenge the player and BIS will basically end up making two games which is unreasonable of us to ask of them.

And keep in mind that Americas army is also just a game yet it has more complex shooting mechanics than arma and its players have no problem with it as far as I know. and their community is more "mainstream" than ours if you ask me. I don't see why it would be an unwelcome feature. And I strongly believe if vbs style shooting was already being used here in a2 there wouldn't be anybody complaining about how hard it is to shoot. could be wrong though.

Edited April 8, 2012 by -Coulum-

[dmarkwick 261]

So if BIS is to add breathing that will make easy 1 shot snipe kills with M4 next to impossible - it will stop ArmA from being a game?

What will it be then? And why VBS2 is not a game?

Well as usual you're extrapolating into the ridiculous :) but in any case - I don't know whether it's the result of a mod or not, but my gameplay is that I cannot shoot straight for 10-20 seconds after running a distance. Or doing any of the ingame heavy movements like climbing etc. I already have a swaying image that can be calmed somewhat by controlling my breathing.

(VBS2 is a training tool BTW)

@Dmarkwick - I don't understand how vbs style shooting will be that complex. your weapon is now swaying more, its pretty easy to use timing to compensate for that. If you press the hold breath key you will have less sway for a couple of seconds. make em count. I think even a cod player could understand that pretty easily. If there was anything more complex ie.(holding breath when exhaling results better than when inhaling) you don't have to even mention this. players will be able to get by without it and if they want to take the extra step to make themselves even more accurate they can research it or hopefully use one of the many tutorials to learn how to master it. I really don't see how it is that overly complicated.

That being said, I wouldn't mind it as a difficulty option. as long as its there somewhere. But I think that there would be a lot of these difficulty settings if we did this to every feature that might actually challenge the player and BIS will basically end up making two games which is unreasonable of us to ask of them.

Well my meaning wasn't that it would be complex, only a barrier to gameplay. If you say AA has this system and it works as a gameplay mechanic, then I'm prepared to believe that and say I'm wrong.

And keep in mind that Americas army is also just a game yet it has more complex shooting mechanics than arma and its players have no problem with it as far as I know. and their community is more "mainstream" than ours if you ask me. I don't see why it would be an unwelcome feature. And I strongly believe if vbs style shooting was already being used there in a2 there wouldn't be anybody complaining about how hard it is to shoot. could be wrong though.

I'm all for using other games as examples where such-and-such a mechanic can work in a game.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Im not sure if it should be harder, but i would like to have to robotic feeling gone, it just feels too static. RO2 had a much better feeling to the guns. Not just the recoil, but the aiming itself also felt much more real.