Hinds FM

[Scorlhov 1]

why even compare a slow moving systems based gunship and a coaxial to the hind which is one of the worlds fastest helicopters and has high lift thanks to its wings.

Agility, I compare only agility ----->"split s"

Nothing to do with speed :)

[max power 21]

Hey MAX Power, any comments on the Intrument issues I mentioned b4?

Uhm... no? I use the overlay?

[sportpilot 1]

the overlay? What do you mean by that? can you pls fill me in... thnks

[max power 21]

The virtual instruments... or... virtual virtual... instruments...

[sportpilot 1]

ohhh :O I see. No offence meant really, BUT this explains a lot. The two of us appearently have a totaly different understanding of Virtual Reality, Immersion and Realsism. I would NEVER use anything like this. Its like a game and robs every Sense of immersion, at least for me. PLUS the Overlay still does not have a turn coordinator. ;-) Thus it does not solve the issue of a missing MINIMAL Instrumentation. Mind if I ask you: Do you even know what a turn coordinator is?

I just read the article on the Hind posted here earlier and I dont know what the poster is trying to say with it... But boy what can I say. I think its time to speak very clearly about what it says there...Because it seems to reflect pretty much EXACTLY what I am saying. Within the article it states "the directional control is insufficient"! Insufficient, guys o.k. - in case you guys do not understand what this means in aviation terms... it means it is NOT very responsive...it does not react very fast and has no huge range in motion. In other words: It is SLOW in directional control. It does not mean it is OVERSENSITIVE: NO, that would be the EXACT OPPOSITE. What they are saying is: If there is a stong wind gust, sometimes a full press on the pedal would not be able to conquer the threat, or not fast enough for that matter! This is what this means. The Hind even tended to go into a spin because of that, and there was no way of avoiding this by aplying oposite Pedal as you would if your AC is about to enter a spin... Also loosing 200 meters after pulling from a "dive" of 20 deg, does not exactly point toward a very fierce bahaviour in pitch either. To be honest; just what I would expect from a bird this size. It is not an RC mini Chopper after all.

I believe that I have sufficient knowledge/experience to make the statements that I make here. I am profesionally involved in the Aviation Industry and develop Cockpit Software for a pretty well known german Airline...and before that I was involved for many years professionally in Flightsimulation Software and Flightsimulators. Next to my daytime job I run my own Simulator company I have a brand new State of the Art Airbus A320 Simulator that is currently undergoing the certification process as FNPT II and I own a Cessna C-172 Full Motion Sim that is currently certified as BATD and later FNPT I. If you want to catch a ride goto:

www.flightdecksystems.de

or visit us on the Aero in Friedrichsghafen starting today, we have the stand together with Sennheiser and we have one of our Sims in a Truck with us. Trade show is on until Saturday. Come to the stand approach the dude with the dark hair and the Name initials FW and say: The HIND FM sucks and you will get a free ride :-)

And I am a Flightsim Enthusiast that has always been on the quest for the ultimate in realism. I mean how much enthusiasm I have may be appreciated from the fact that I am constantly writing into this forum in order to improve the FM of one of my many Home Flight Simulators, although my time household does not allow for too many hobbies....

So I remain with my opinion: The FM is off, way off.

You see, I mentioned before if BI would not claim to have a 90% replica of the real bird I would not be writing this. For the other choppers you cleverly avoided to be compared with the real helos because although everyone knows that the light resembles the Hughes 500. You do not call it the hughes 500 and you changed the location of the horizontal stabilizer and some other minor details. So nobody can come and say: hey it does not fly like a hughes 500, yes beacuse it isnt a hughes 500. Clever. Very Clever! But now BI has gotten as far as to actually create a "simulation" of a realworld Chopper, The Hind, AND it claims to be as realistic as it gets. So at this point BI has to accept the fact that they are not fullfilling their promises. Because while a Hind will look like your Hind from the outside it lacks the Systems the FM and even critical Intruments, yes you guessed it: e.g. the turn coordinator. :rolleyes:

To be precise and constructive as a first measure BI should cut down the Yaw response to about half and the max deflection angle to about two thirds. Or tell me where I can do this.

Hey, MAX Power are you even the right guy to talk to about this? I am starting to get the feeling that you are doing tech support for the game rather than having any word in the dev. especially with respect to the FM. And I am writing and writing and nothing happens... Are the FM developers even reading this?

To finally cut a bottom line: Is BI not willing to do anything about it??... or at least maybe tell me how I - as a user - can fix this problem (maybe in a config file or something)

If you are not willing to do anyhting, let me know thats fine, because then I can use my time for something else and will not bother you guys anymore...

Edited April 18, 2012 by sportpilot

[Mr. Charles 22]

Max Power is not working for BIS afaik, he is a moderator here on the forums and has the same product/tools as every one else. As for FM changes, here is a thread for you: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?126795-flight-model-editing

Nice simulators you got there btw.

[armored_sheep 56]

To be precise and constructive as a first measure BI should cut down the Yaw response to about half and the max deflection angle to about two thirds.

The range of the tail rotor is exactly as in flight manual/maintenance books. What is different is that real Hind has also a system that limits the range of angles on tail rotor depending on altitude (air pressure). This feature is not modeled, the range is at max allways.

[max power 21]

ohhh :O I see. No offence meant really, BUT this explains a lot. The two of us appearently have a totaly different understanding of Virtual Reality, Immersion and Realsism. I would NEVER use anything like this. Its like a game and robs every Sense of immersion, at least for me. PLUS the Overlay still does not have a turn coordinator. ;-) Thus it does not solve the issue of a missing MINIMAL Instrumentation. Mind if I ask you: Do you even know what a turn coordinator is?

No, I think the difference here is our ideas about what the game is. The devs have said it's not really a hardcore simulation, which seems pretty apt. However, the way the helicopters behave seem realistic enough.

I just read the article on the Hind posted here earlier and I dont know what the poster is trying to say with it... But boy what can I say. I think its time to speak very clearly about what it says there...Because it seems to reflect pretty much EXACTLY what I am saying. Within the article it states "the directional control is insufficient"! Insufficient, guys o.k. - in case you guys do not understand what this means in aviation terms... it means it is NOT very responsive...it does not react very fast and has no huge range in motion. In other words: It is SLOW in directional control. It does not mean it is OVERSENSITIVE: NO, that would be the EXACT OPPOSITE. What they are saying is: If there is a stong wind gust, sometimes a full press on the pedal would not be able to conquer the threat, or not fast enough for that matter! This is what this means. The Hind even tended to go into a spin because of that, and there was no way of avoiding this by aplying oposite Pedal as you would if your AC is about to enter a spin... Also loosing 200 meters after pulling from a "dive" of 20 deg, does not exactly point toward a very fierce bahaviour in pitch either. To be honest; just what I would expect from a bird this size. It is not an RC mini Chopper after all.

Perhaps your stick is too sensitive, or your simulation is running at a low frame rate? Are you saying if you took the hind's control stick and rammed it into the left wall, that the helicopter wouldn't respond aggressively?

I believe that I have sufficient knowledge/experience to make the statements that I make here. I am profesionally involved in the Aviation Industry and develop Cockpit Software for a pretty well known german Airline...and before that I was involved for many years professionally in Flightsimulation Software and Flightsimulators. Next to my daytime job I run my own Simulator company I have a brand new State of the Art Airbus A320 Simulator that is currently undergoing the certification process as FNPT II and I own a Cessna C-172 Full Motion Sim that is currently certified as BATD and later FNPT I. If you want to catch a ride goto:

www.flightdecksystems.de

or visit us on the Aero in Friedrichsghafen starting today, we have the stand together with Sennheiser and we have one of our Sims in a Truck with us. Trade show is on until Saturday. Come to the stand approach the dude with the dark hair and the Name initials FW and say: The HIND FM sucks and you will get a free ride :-)

And I am a Flightsim Enthusiast that has always been on the quest for the ultimate in realism. I mean how much enthusiasm I have may be appreciated from the fact that I am constantly writing into this forum in order to improve the FM of one of my many Home Flight Simulators, although my time household does not allow for too many hobbies....

So I remain with my opinion: The FM is off, way off.

It's still your word against someone who flies them for a living.

You see, I mentioned before if BI would not claim to have a 90% replica of the real bird I would not be writing this.

I don't think BI claimed this. I think they were quoting the claim of a member of the Czech flying tigers who was consulting on the project.

For the other choppers you cleverly avoided to be compared with the real helos because although everyone knows that the light resembles the Hughes 500. You do not call it the hughes 500 and you changed the location of the horizontal stabilizer and some other minor details. So nobody can come and say: hey it does not fly like a hughes 500, yes beacuse it isnt a hughes 500. Clever. Very Clever! But now BI has gotten as far as to actually create a "simulation" of a realworld Chopper, The Hind, AND it claims to be as realistic as it gets. So at this point BI has to accept the fact that they are not fullfilling their promises. Because while a Hind will look like your Hind from the outside it lacks the Systems the FM and even critical Intruments, yes you guessed it: e.g. the turn coordinator. :rolleyes:

They certainly didn't ever claim it to be the functional equivalent of a real hind.

To be precise and constructive as a first measure BI should cut down the Yaw response to about half and the max deflection angle to about two thirds. Or tell me where I can do this.

There are a few different threads about tweaking the flight models on the forums :)

Hey, MAX Power are you even the right guy to talk to about this? I am starting to get the feeling that you are doing tech support for the game rather than having any word in the dev. especially with respect to the FM. And I am writing and writing and nothing happens... Are the FM developers even reading this?

As it was pointed out, I'm a moderator, not a BI employee. I don't know who at BI is developing the flight model, but you have the ear of a few people who work on the project, like Armoured_Sheep above me.

To finally cut a bottom line: Is BI not willing to do anything about it??... or at least maybe tell me how I - as a user - can fix this problem (maybe in a config file or something)

If you are not willing to do anyhting, let me know thats fine, because then I can use my time for something else and will not bother you guys anymore...

There is sufficient information from the community and developers to get a start at altering the flight model, and other pilots have already published several versions of the flight model for a more realistic MD500 based on previous game versions.

[jedra 11]

@sportpilot - it's worth you checking out the thread Max pointed you to - it has lots of information on the flight model (which is basically a big XML file).

Unfortunately unlike the base game the hind flight-model is protected inside air_h_dlc1.pbo for Hinds - perhaps Armored Sheep can arrange for it to be unlocked in the next patch so you and others can tinker? While he is there, he could unlock the missions and provide us a photoshop template for painting too ;-)

[sportpilot 1]

Max Power thanks for the info. But pls. pls. understand I am not(¨) talking about the Stick. Well, at least in my setup the Stick does NOT control the Tail Rotor wich in my Sim is responsible for the over amount of Yaw during hover. The Cyclic is fine for the moment, not perfect but o.k. no trouble there. I am and have always been talking about Yaw as the major showstopper....

Errrr and the frames are fine I cant bare with frame trouble because I need a 100% fluid experience in order to fly with a certain feel for the bird. But nevertheless I will go and checkout the other threat.

@Armored_Sheep any plans to unlock the XML of the Hinds FM to allow for editing?

[max power 21]

Yeah, I was talking about the controls in general ;)

To be more clear, if you're going to make the tail rotor less sensitive using the XML, why wouldn't you just open up the controller settings and decrease the sensitivity of your pedals? You can define the deadzone, and the response curve, and you may be able define where the controls top out. It would seem like a good place to start while the flight parameters are unavailable.

[sportpilot 1]

Yes it would be the perfect solution for now... if it really was possible to edit the point of top out. But it isnt. Having an increasing response curve is somewhat difficult because it will catch up with you eventually... meaning the full deflection will come very rapid during flight = not so good. But believe me I have played back and forth with these settings that I can do for hours. Linear response with no deadzone should provide the best results. The FM should be your first adress rather than the Controiler setup : This should really be for fine tuning. In an RC Model you will also always solve everything that you can mechanically and as a last resort go in your RC Controller and Servo Settings to finetune.. For the time beeing I did help myself with a slightly progressive response curve and a tiny bit of deadzone... but like I said it tends to catch up at the most unwanted time of flight... Also the other Helos are fine, its really just the Hind and I dont want to keep changing settings if I switch my Helo.

But maybe BI can implement function where you can limit the max controller deflection. With this and an editable XML I would be happy.

[max power 21]

Really? When I was first flying RC, we used to install dual rate switches on the radios to decrease their sensitivity when we wanted a less touchy flight :)

[cygan 16]

Armored_Sheep

Originally Posted by sportpilot

To be precise and constructive as a first measure BI should cut down the Yaw response to about half and the max deflection angle to about two thirds.

The range of the tail rotor is exactly as in flight manual/maintenance books.

Third time i say on this forum that i had occasion to see two times (and i can more) how look Yaw response on real hind when rudder is in neutral position during hover. In TOH it it too strong!!!

How should be looks like correctly? Put the same value as in "heavy" helicopter in TOH !

What is different is that real Hind has also a system that limits the range of angles on tail rotor depending on altitude (air pressure). This feature is not modeled, the range is at max allways.

This is not immportant thing as all simflayers should be worry. More intresting thing is hydraulic damper that limits of move speed of rudder, prevent to possibly damage of fuselage.

[sportpilot 1]

Really? When I was first flying RC, we used to install dual rate switches on the radios to decrease their sensitivity when we wanted a less touchy flight :)

well then you did it all wrong ;-) Rule No 1 always get your servo travel angle and so forth setup as good as you can and THEN go into Controller Settings. E.g. Dual rate and trimm and so forth...

---------- Post added at 06:53 ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 ----------

More intresting thing is hydraulic damper that limits of move speed of rudder, prevent to possibly damage of fuselage.

Exactly, can you imagine what would happen to the Fuselage if you WOULD be able to throw a 11 Ton Gunship around like a piece of Paper in the wind? It would probably tear off the tail in a second.

[max power 21]

well then you did it all wrong ;-) Rule No 1 always get your servo travel angle and so forth setup as good as you can and THEN go into Controller Settings. E.g. Dual rate and trimm and so forth...

That's what we did. We set up our servos and then set up the dual rate controller for...

when we wanted a less touchy flight

[sportpilot 1]

See, there you go. Same principle applies here. Firts Get the original FM down as good as you can and THEN go into the Controller Settings ;-)

---------- Post added at 11:34 ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 ----------

Nice simulators you got there btw.

thanks we do our best ;-)

[max power 21]

For us users, that can't happen at the current time, unfortunately.

[sportpilot 1]

sure - but we have high hopes for the future :)

[Scorlhov 1]

sure - but we have high hopes for the future :)

+1

and for an properly modelled targeting system :)