Blackhawk down

[elendil004 0]

What gun does durant use while he's in the downed bird?

I thought it might be a g36 folded up...but i don't have a good shot of the gun he uses in the movie, and i dunno if g36's are issued to us military.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

nope. The weapon Durant uses is an MP5. The US doesnt use the G36; its a strictly European weapon.

[Jester983 0]

Tex is right. He did use an MP5 or as they called it in mogidshu, the skinny popper. fitting name for it too..

[Grey Fox 0]

More specifically the short MP5K

[WKK Gimbal 0]

I was wondering why the DF guys at the crash site shout whenever they reload their rifles?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ June 15 2002,00:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">nope. The weapon Durant uses is an MP5. The US doesnt use the G36; its a strictly European weapon.<span id='postcolor'>

...more German than anything really.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was wondering why the DF guys at the crash site shout whenever they reload their rifles? <span id='postcolor'>

I reckon it is so that their mate knows that they are reloading. That way he can cover his mate's arc as well?

[Warin 0]

Considering there was only the two of them, I suspect Ronin has the right of it.

A lot of people might gripe about what was going on... and why the US was there... but those two guys are the epitome of what it means to be a hero.  

Here are the citations for the Medal of Honor they were each awarded posthumously.  We can bash the US government all we like..but these guys went into a situation that they pretty much knew was unwinnable to protect the lives of their comrades.  They could have stayed in the Blackhawk and I doubt a living soul would have doubted their actions. But..they went.

Back to the topic at hand...

Yeap... MP5K.  Shame that in the movie he's got an MP5N

Shughart packed an M14, according to the book and from the looks of the movie.  I found it interesting to read the accounts of Somali's taking 4 or 5 rounds of 5.56mm green tip and getting up and running.  Gotta love AP rounds on guys with no A to P  Goes to show you that newest isnt always best.

Finally watched the movie as well.  I was rather surprised. I'd read a few reviews that complained about it being overy 'gung ho american' but I didnt find it so.  The soldiers were 'hoo-ah'... but that's how they are trained to be.  It was a little 2 dimensional, and the opposing point of view wasnt as developed in film as it was in the book...but then no one would sit through the four hour movie it would have been if they'd recreated the whole thing.

[Aculaud 0]

correction: it was an early MP5 with the stock closed, not an MP5K. Check out the foregrip:

I'm interested to know what gun Gordon used. Shugart had an M21, and it looked like Gordon had an M4 with a special scope and big silencer. I thought i saw a tactical light on there as well, but does anyone know specifically?

[dayglow 2]

I think it was a suppressed M4 like you said. If they were a sniper team then Gordon would have been a scout/spotter for Shugart and a suppressed weapon would help him in that role.

COLINMAN

[Warin 0]

Hmm...

It's strange that the book says M14.  I know the M21 is just an accurised M14, but why would they quote one of the Delta Force guys as saying

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition and carried a Vietnam-era M-14<span id='postcolor'>

Weird.

[Aculaud 0]

I both loved and hated that scene. I loved seeing them work, but i hated watching them die. If i were them, i would have just gotten Durant out of there, and retreated to a position with better cover. As a pose to both of us right in the middle of everything with me gaurding one flank and my partner gaurding the other one. They just got themselves surrounded with not enough ammo on their side. Gordon said he was down to his last mag right before he ate it, so even if he didnt die, he'd still be out of ammo. Having a machine gunner with them would have really helped that situation. I'v found that a machine gunner\sniper combo really helps to beat back large infantry fronts in OFP.

[Antichrist 0]

Why didn't they use minigun?

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Antichrist @ June 14 2002,22:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why didn't they use minigun?  <span id='postcolor'>

good question. most likely they were heavily damaged in the crash.

[Jester983 0]

what really pissed me off was after the somalians killed the DF/ Rangers they tore off all their clothes and put the bodys up in the air as a sign of victory. I know this happend in real life too. It just pisses me off.. Anyone else feel the same way?

[MDRZulu 0]

Im sure Shugart and Gordon couldnt get out of there because Durant was already shooting out of the chopper before they got there so they were probably got pinned down worst and worst once they got there. I dont think they used the minigun because either it was facing a bad way, it was broken, or because they are Delta Force and they can survive better on their own weapons. They did manage to move Durant but Im sure wherever they went there would be a pissed of Somali mob.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ June 15 2002,05:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Antichrist @ June 14 2002,22:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why didn't they use minigun?  <span id='postcolor'>

good question.  most likely they were heavily damaged in the crash.<span id='postcolor'>

And the minigun is electrically operated. Even if they were in pristine condition after the crash...

no engines=no generators=no miniguns

[Aculaud 0]

Mini guns are manned weapons on turrets. If it was facing a bad direction they could just point it in a new one. That did annoy me, cause they didnt even check. Maybe they didnt have time, but who knows...

I think it would have been possible to evacuate Durant the same way the DF guys came in. When they got close enough to their original drop off point, they could just call in their assigned black hawk which could have further supported them. I didnt see any RPGs in that crowd...

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think it would have been possible to evacuate Durant the same way the DF guys came in. When they got close enough to their original drop off point, they could just call in their assigned black hawk which could have further supported them. I didnt see any RPGs in that crowd...<span id='postcolor'>

From the MOH citation:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Master Sergeant Gordon was inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon and his fellow sniper, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members<span id='postcolor'>

They would have had to carry him back through that...not really practical. Also, at the time of the Delta Snipers inserting, the copilot and the other crewmembers were still alive. Durant was the only one that managed to survive the crowd rushing them. I doubt Gordon and Shughart would have picked one of the pilots, and left the rest of the crew to the mercy of the Somalis. I think fubar is a good description of the Super Six Four crash site

[Hasha 2]

[insert blind rage that gets people banned]

[dayglow 2]

Want a little racism with your whine?

COLINMAN

[MDRZulu 0]

You also have to realize that Shugart and Gorden were expecting to get out of there when the convoy came by which it never did. They were just buying time for the crew because there was a chance Shugart and Gorden could hold them off. And yeah maybe and AC-130 would have prevented the whole thing from happening because the blackhawks were put in place of a denied ac-130 air support request, so maybe if the blackhawks had left and an ac-130 provided air support it would have been a flawless mission except for Todd Blackburn who somehow missed the rope.

[Warin 0]

Wow. At least when Wobble said racist things he pointed to particular incidents that made him mental.

You might want to edit that, Harashajima...because it's just nasty, disgusting, unwarranted, racist filth.

There is no place here for crap like that!

as for the Somalis, if you'd care to pick up a copy of the book Blackhawk Down at your local library, you might learn something. Yes, it was barbaric to treat dead bodies like that. In fact..it's against their religion (islam) to do such a thing...deeply sinful.

However, the situation was such that by the time of this incident, most Somalis saw the Rangers as truly bad people... and so when in a hardcore gun battle situation, people did some rather barbaric things.

Not US bashing (really! but the Americans may have killed 100 to 1 on that say... and a lot of those kills were from aircraft mounted weapons like miniguns and rockets..literally tearing people apart. So tell me, if someone you considered an enemy blew up half a dozen of your best friends... and you had the chance to vent your anger on dead/dying enemies...would you be noble and do the right thing? Not bloody likely.

[dayglow 2]

Exactly the extent of the politics for most of the Somalis that day was that their homes were invaded and their people were dying in the street. The Americans did what they had to do, but for the common man in the street, the politics was above them.

COLINMAN

[Grey Fox 0]

Wait how bad was the airborne view of the crash site. Could a MH-60 or AH-6 proveded cover or supressing fire by taking out the back of the crowd(although that is a total violation of the rules of engagement).I know I would totally ignore the rules and shoot anything that remotely looked like a gun.

Its amazing what a little extra firepower could have done. Something like a AH-64 or some other gunship with more firepower than an Ah-6 would have worked. Oh yeah I've done some reading and supposedly there could be a AH-60. It is supposedly armed with:

Two 30mm chainguns

4 Stinger Air to Air missles

4 Hellfire Antitank missles

After reading the book I felt a little sympathetic for the Somalis but that justifies nothing about their dragging the bodies. I don't consider the ones who participated true Muslims because "Islam is about peace."

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MDRZulu @ June 14 2002,21:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And yeah maybe and AC-130 would have prevented the whole thing from happening because the blackhawks were put in place of a denied ac-130 air support request, so maybe if the blackhawks had left and an ac-130 provided air support it would have been a flawless mission except for Todd Blackburn who somehow missed the rope.<span id='postcolor'>

well, iv never really seen an AC-130 spectre in action, but i actually think choppers were more efficient. Choppers have the ability to get a lot closer to the city if needed, where as planes would risk crashing really bad, and targets would be going by too fast if they tried to fly that close. I just think they needed better communication between the black hawks\little birds and the foot soldiers.

And Blackburn missed the rope cause the chopper had to dodge a rocket. No ones fault really.........except the guy who fired the rocket maybe.