A realism issue that seriously needs addressed..

[Warship NWS 0]

So far I am very impressed with V1.46 but there is a realism issue that needs improvement as it gives the player a dramatic cheat over the AI. I dont know if that has been covered yet.. but here we go..

Attack helos in reality would attract everything from slingshots to bricks to ATGMs like magnets. Most every modern tank gunner in reality for most armies are now trained to try and use their tank guns vs hovering helos, (chatted with a M1A2 tank commander about this matter about a year ago). Attack helicopters are one of the most serious threats on the modern battlefeild and should be addressed with such attention by the AI. Presently you can fly over a convoy and not even piss anyone off while you slaughter them at will unless there is a SAM guy or SPAAA nearby. A hovering helo is vulnerable and even slow flying helos can take weapons hits including light anti-tank rocket or ATGM fire, as has happened in real life. Granted they should take a good deal more to shoot down then your Kiowa. I do like the fact that everyone fires at your Kiowa from what I have seen.. but hovering over an entire convoy with my Apache or being low and too slow with my Warthog should attact some kind of attention. Not every single part of these aircraft are armored, especially their pylon weapons. If I can run around in a practice scenario and wax helos with my LAW rocket.. then why cant the AI be allowed the same ability? I have used my 120mm smoothbore to piss off Hinds before with excellent accuracy.. why cant the AI do the same vs a hovering or slow moving helo that is in their sights? Why am I not receiving at least some small arms fire, HMGs, and other weapons when hovering over a bunch of bad guys? I have not even seen BMP-2s or M2s with their autocannons which are built with a secondary role for AA fire vs helos with their rapid fire and good AP qualities. No Apache or Mi-24 will stand up to a lot of hits from 25-30mm for very long and they will take some kind of damage from even a few hits.

Like I stated.. OFP rocks.. V1.46 is damn good. But this needs addressing very badly. Even Gunship! and Longbow did this so there is no reason not to do it with OFP..;)

PLEASE do something with this in the next update. I know you could probably do this with specialized scenarios.. but I fully feel it should be automatic in the game engine. Life should be very short for any attack aircraft leaving itself exposed for too long as that IS reality. No point using pop-ups, shoot and scoot, horizontal unmasking, or other real tactics if you are not going to be fired upon.

(Other ideas to add are the miniguns for the scouts rather then rockets, the Mi-2 Hoplite, Mi-4 Hound, and Mi-6 Hook {counterparts to the Kiowa, Blackhawk, and Chinook}, OH-6 Cayuse with minigun would be fun also if you wanted a variety between the rocket armed Kiowa and the minigun armed Cayuse).

Thanks to the OFP crew for keeping up the excellent work and sorry I have not been able to post here for quite some time.. keeping very busy here at NWS but I still pull out my OFP to release frustration and blow sh*t up!!

Take care and good luck!

[jimz0rz 0]

Agreed! Some very legitimate issues indeed. Making flying more of a hazard would spice up the gameplay a tad.

Only problem is that OFP's damage model is prehaps not the most realistic in the world. For example, you could constantly shoot the landing gear and the whole chopper would eventually blow up - damned health point damage system.

But yeah, I would like the AI to start throwing the heavy stuff at helo's. Who knows, maybe they do this in OF: Resistance.

[NurEinMensch 0]

True! In RL everything flying, especially a low and slow flying helo, is a hi-priority target and will attract fire from almost everthing, including small arms.

[Guest Scooby]

This issue has been even discussed with BIS but they seemed to decide that its not neccessary to fix... Same thing seems to aply to almost every, even smaller realism issues.

[shadow 6]

It depends of which aircraft you fly to get a certain enemy unit to fire at you.

an M2 fires at a Kiowa. a T80 fires at uh60,ah-1 but strangly enough, it does'nt fire at a CH47 or a AH64

In any case, I think you're right, Warship NWS

Everything from a grunt to a MBT should fire what it got against a air-threat. It would make flying a chopper alot more challenging and not just a relief from the battleground like it is today.

[Die Alive 0]

In Vietnam war, there were reports of Ak-47 fire taking out an A-6 intruder after a low level bombing run. I remember a MP mission I played not too long ago where we were being "attacked" by a UH-60 and all we did was just keep shooting at it with our AKs and eventually it went down.

-=Die Alive=-

[Snoopy 0]

AI tanks use their mgs to shoot you down.

[miles teg 1]

I agree...I've been asking everyone if there is a script to turn regular machine gunners into AA gunners as well. What I really would love is if at least the machine gunner infantry (Pk's and M60's) would fire at all helicopters and aircraft. It would be awesome flying at night or in the evening and seeing all those tracers coming up at you. That would make air missions VERY intense as you try to fly through a wall of tracers coming at you! I made one like that with HAWK fighter bombers and alot of Shilkas along with Vikingo's Heavy MG's and it was awesome. But I can't do that with helicopters because they don't fly fast enough to avoid the heavy AA guns so they get shot down in seconds which isn't any fun either. Which is why I'd like to see small arms fire at the helicopters and aircraft. I've tried using the "dofire" scripts but those don't work very well.

There's gotta be something that gets a soldier to fire at helicopters. In one of the older OFP versions (I forgot which one) I remember that Machine Gunners (PK gunners) used to fire at UH60 blackhawks. They'd often shoot be down but it was TONS of fun flying over the battlefield at high speed as my door gunner fired at them and my poor blackhawk took heavy damage from the PK's until I had to go back to get repaired at the airbase.

So if anyone has a script or can make an addon that will do that for at least Pk and M60 MG gunners then that would awesome. Also same for the M2 .50 cal gunners. Vikingo's Heavy HMG addon does that but unfortunately he increased the damage capability of those M2's so that they are almost as powerful as Shilkas. I emailed him about lowering the damage of the bullets, but I never got a response.

So any ideas or addons would be very welcomed!!!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Mr ThunderMakeR 0]

The only problem with AI shooting at choppers is that the AI has WAY too good of aim. Even at high speeds a T80 will hit a Kiowa with every single round from the co-axel gun.

If BIS is going to make the machine-gunners fire at choppers, they need to make their accuracy a little bit poorer. 2 machine gunners alone can down a chopper in a matter of secs with the accuracy they have now (machine gunners still shoot at UH-60MG's in v1.46).

[shadow 6]

Yup , speed of target should be taken into consideration for the AI aswell. But I don't think I would like to see that algorithm from Suma

Sounds like alot of sleepless nights and alot of cofee-cans for him

[Scorpio 0]

Same goes for LAW Soldiers shooting down hovering helis down.

[shadow 6]

Yeah, I hope the AI won't be able to use that against a helo. Atleast some limitations would be required, like; not firie a law against a aircraft moving faster than 35km/h or something

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shadow @ June 06 2002,22:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, I hope the AI won't be able to use that against a helo. Atleast some limitations would be required, like; not firie a law against a aircraft moving faster than 35km/h or something  <span id='postcolor'>

Yeah I agree...AT/LAW/RPG troops should NOT be shooting their valuable rockets at helicopters and planes when those weapons are meant to be used for tanks. Otherwise they shoot off all their rockets and when they face armor they are sitting ducks. I just want to see PK/M60/M2 .50 gunners being able to shoot at helicopters and airplanes.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[UrbanMonkey 0]

My 2 cents...

Remember this is only a game, and realism doesnt always make for a good game. I agree it should be much more realistic, but I'm not gonna get into a fit over it.

Yes it sucks that any helicopter can take a good number of 20-30 mm rounds, or .50 caliber rounds, and still fly. I agree, that is bull. A .50 caliber mg with armor piercing ammo would take down a hind real fast, it hit in the right spots. Probably one 20-30 mm round would take down a wide range of helicopters if hit in the right spot. But still it shouldnt take any more than five maybe. I try to blow up a hind with a 30mm gun and it seems forever before it goes down in flames.

[SelectThis 0]

If people want it I can make an addon with all the current helicopters recoded so that the AI machine gunners target them. (Won't replace existing helis, will add new ones to the mission editor).

Without new textures and so forth the size of this addon would be pretty small, less than 50k i would think.

Let me know what you want.

SelectThis

[HellToupee 0]

me and a guy where flyin in a bhawk in a coop i was gunner he brought me low over a few ai squads i took out the mgunners and we were free from danger half a meter off the ground the enemy just waved and smiled at us as soon as we touched we where hit by a wave of bullets imediatly in real life u wouldnt stand infrount of a hovering hele waitin till they landed so u could shoot it.

Heres an example: a hele comes to a hover a few meters to your left and opens up with its gun, "2:sarge do we open fire","1:no private its still a few cms off the ground shootin it would be against the game code" 1: is down

[drkhrt532 0]

i totally agree about the gunners and helos......but i think that RPG's and LAW's could be used aganst a helo when its on the ground picking up or letting off troops. The VC did that lotsa times during Vietnam.....youd think theyd teach the average Ruskie "ground-pounder" that an RPG can put a serious dent in a helicopter loading/offloading troops.

Another problem....have you noticed when youre the pilot of a helicopter, and you tell your gunner to target a specific soldier sometimes he says "engaging" over and over again?? sometimes i just drop him in a hot zone so he will shut the hell up. that needs fixing.....

Aslo about the Hind helicopter....in the real life Hind, its canopy and windscreen can take a direct hit from a 50 cal round. however in afghanistan the rebels noticed that one well placed shot in the oil cap next to the engine can bring down a Hind quite quickly.

[jimz0rz 0]

The weakpoint on the OFP hind is the air intakes. One AAM in that area and the engine shuts down.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (drkhrt532 @ June 07 2002,06:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i totally agree about the gunners and helos......but i think that RPG's and LAW's could be used aganst a helo when its on the ground picking up or letting off troops. The VC did that lotsa times during Vietnam.....youd think theyd teach the average Ruskie "ground-pounder" that an RPG can put a serious dent in a helicopter loading/offloading troops.

Another problem....have you noticed when youre the pilot of a helicopter, and you tell your gunner to target a specific soldier sometimes he says "engaging" over and over again?? sometimes i just drop him in a hot zone so he will shut the hell up. that needs fixing.....

Aslo about the Hind helicopter....in the real life Hind, its canopy and windscreen can take a direct hit from a 50 cal round. however in afghanistan the rebels noticed that one well placed shot in the oil cap next to the engine can bring down a Hind quite quickly.  <span id='postcolor'>

If you haven't noticed the enemy DOES launch rockets at all helicopters when they land...well at least they shoot at the Chinooks and Blackhawks when they land. I've lost a lot of helicopters that way in OFP.

As for the Hind, in real life, the Majahadin in Afghanistan also had a terrible time shooting down the HINDS at all until they got the Stinger missles. While it could be taken out by a 12.7mm DShK HMG, it was VERY difficult and more often then not the Hind would take out the AA gun position before the AA gun could take out the HIND. Trying to hit a fast moving HIND at all is not very easy, let alone trying to hit an oil cap of a very pissed off Hind that's trying to kill you.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[shadow 6]

Miles Teg: When a chopper in OFP is on the ground it is considered a ground-unit. Anything or anyone with a weapon will use everything on it , even handgrenades.

Urban Monkey: One of the safety-requirements for an Apache is:

To fly for atleast another 30 minutes without oil and being hit by 23mm shells in all critical areas i.e. rotor-couplings, gears, air-intakes etc.

in short: The Apache is kinda immune to the wimpy 12.7

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shadow @ June 07 2002,16:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Miles Teg: When a chopper in OFP is on the ground it is considered a ground-unit. Anything or anyone with a weapon will use everything on it , even handgrenades.

Urban Monkey: One of the safety-requirements for an Apache is:

To fly for atleast another 30 minutes without oil and being hit by 23mm shells in all critical areas i.e. rotor-couplings, gears, air-intakes etc.  

in short: The Apache is kinda immune to the wimpy 12.7 <span id='postcolor'>

Yes I know that helicopters are considered ground units when they land. That's why I stated that the enemy shoots at them when they land.

As for the Apache it is NOT immune to 12.7mm weapons. Even small arms fire can damage the Apache. Several Apaches were damaged during Operation Anaconda recently by small arms fire, enough to where they had to head back to their base and abort their missions according to one report that I believe was on the BBC if I remember correctly. Also 12.7mm AP or API rounds will go through the canopy glass of the Apache with no problem whatsoever. No helicopter is entirely immune. Usually just tough enough to absorb enough damage to give them the chance to silence AA guns before they get shot down.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[The Jub-Jub Bird 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miles Teg @ June 07 2002,18:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shadow @ June 07 2002,16:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Miles Teg: When a chopper in OFP is on the ground it is considered a ground-unit. Anything or anyone with a weapon will use everything on it , even handgrenades.

Urban Monkey: One of the safety-requirements for an Apache is:

To fly for atleast another 30 minutes without oil and being hit by 23mm shells in all critical areas i.e. rotor-couplings, gears, air-intakes etc.  

in short: The Apache is kinda immune to the wimpy 12.7 <span id='postcolor'>

Yes I know that helicopters are considered ground units when they land.  That's why I stated that the enemy shoots at them when they land.  

As for the Apache it is NOT immune to 12.7mm weapons.  Even small arms fire can damage the Apache.  Several Apaches were damaged during Operation Anaconda recently by small arms fire, enough to where they had to head back to their base and abort their missions according to one report that I believe was on the BBC if I remember correctly.  Also 12.7mm AP or API rounds will go through the canopy glass of the Apache with no problem whatsoever.   No helicopter is entirely immune.  Usually just tough enough to absorb enough damage to give them the chance to silence AA guns before they get shot down.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD><span id='postcolor'>

Urban Monkey didn't give them nearly enough credit, but as you point out, they certainly can't be considered invincible or immune.

Helicopters are not fitted with tough heavy armour, because do that and they lose their power to weight ratio, slow right down and lose their agility and their purpose on the battlefield. But certain, vulnerable parts will be strengthened in some attack choppers. The Apache for example (since it has come up numerous times regarding this topic) has an airframe and system designed to survive strikes from fire up to 12.7 and even 23mm calibre. But this 'survivability' is misleading. It refers to the pilots and gunner chance of survival. The cockpit is reinforced as are vital parts of the engine housing. But it won't take too many hits before it most definately is time to turn back to base. The extra few seconds of 'survivability' against enemy fire, might just be enough for the pilot to get the helicopter, his gunner and himself out of harms-way or destroy the enemy in question.

Pilots are taught duck and cover tactics, to use minimum exposer at all times and only come out of cover to fire before quickly hiding again. If attack helicopters were invulnerable flying fortresses, then these tactics wouldn't be needed and the battlefield would be dominated by air units and armour would be a misguided asset.

Jubs

[UrbanMonkey 0]

Yes Miles, Its hard to believe that an apache's armor could just make the 12.7mm round (armor piercing) bounce off like a rock or dent, but not penetrate. Its the most advanced helicopter in the world (commanche is still testing), but its still hard to believe it could take numerous 23mm shells in vulnerable areas...Just look at a 20mm round...ITS HUGE! The projectile part is massive!! I would say the apache could fly for 30 minutes if being hit by small arms, but not 23mm...

I will change my mind when I see the evidence proving myself wrong.