Aircraft

[advocatexxx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And I'll tell you, a large bullet, even though less than an inch in diameter, will make a hole that is several feet wide by the time it has traveled a few feet<span id='postcolor'>

Riiiight.  You're insulting my way of using physics ? Lol, you crack me up.  I don't know what planet you come from but a 30mm API bullet will most certainly not produce a "couple of feet wide" hole in the main armor of a modern tank.  Just to prove you wrong once again below is a photo of a turret after it's been penetrated with a Sabot round from a 105mm M60 tank cannon.

There is little exterior or interior damage around the point of impact, but the interior surface opposite the site of penetration showed splatter from the breakup of the sabot round, and broken armor.  This splatter would have been debilitating to any crewmen.

Keep in mind that a Sabot round has far more energy than the 30mm API rounds fired from the Avenger.

What I said before is in my opinion a valid fact.  The 30mm Avenger with the kinetic energy its bullets travel WILL NOT penetrate the heavily armored parts of modern battle tanks like M1A2 and Leopard 2A6.  You're talking about 450mm+ of honeycomb layers of steel, lead, depleted uranium plates and other elements.  For a 30mm bullet travelling at approximately 1,100 meters per second to penetrate almost half a meter worth of modern tank armour is extremely unlikely.  You probably have a better chance of getting hit by lightning than having such a bullet succeed.

Are you twisting my words around to make a mockery our of me because you are too stubborn to acknowledge that I'm right ?

If you fire a couple of hundred rounds into the frontal hull armor you may heat it up enough to cause further penetration and eventually pierce it, though this would require superb aim.

When I said the Avenger won't penetrate the armor of modern MBTs I meant the heavy main armor in the front.  I wasn't talking about the thin blankets of steel on tank's sides/back/top.  

Of course the argument that "if you shoot enough bullets at it you will destroy it" is valid for almost everything.

Avenger has a chainsaw-like properties, but its firepower too has limits.

Was the Avenger lethal against corny T-55 tanks in the Gulf ? Sure

Is the Avenger a lethal weapon against today's tanks ? Sure, though they may need better aim and more bullets to chop the tank up propertly.

I never made claims that Avenger was completely useless against tanks. If you think I did you quite possibly misunderstood my words.

[R. Gerschwarzenge 0]

OK, moving to off-topic now.

[Sadico 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> The T72s and the T80s didnt stand a chance.<span id='postcolor'>

No t80's in Iraq, man. Just export versions of the t72 using steel sabots and heat rounds against m1's. Of course they didn't stand a chance

[Kermit 0]

Rrrgh, you are impossible.

After the bullet has traveled a few feet the hole will be several feet wide. Your posts clearly demonstrate that you have never shot a gun, at least not hollowpoints. If you have, then you are not very observant. If you shoot at a paper thin target with a nine millimeter hollowpoint, you will make a nine millimeter hole. However, if you shoot a plastic gallon jug with a nine millemeter hollowpoint, there will be a nine millimeter hole where the bullet went in, and the other side of the jug will be a mess where the bullet came out. And thirty millimeter DPU rounds spread a hell of a lot more than nine millimeter hollowpoints. Do you know what an entry hole and an exit hole are? Go look it up, then! If you reread my post, I was talking about exit holes. The entry hole would only be thirty millimeters (I think). But the exit hole would likely be several feet in diameter. If it weren't, it would be only because the tank is hollow - in which case whatever is in the hollow, namely the crew and ammunition, would be annihilated. I am assuming for that statement that they, by some miracle, are not already dead from the (possibly several thousand degree) heat.

Once more, you are making bullshit comparisons. You can't compare a Sabot round to a DPU round! They're nothing like. The DPU has far more velocity, and is far denser. I don't think you have a clue as to how hard it is to stop something that fast and that heavy (depleted uranium is extremely heavy and when fired has a lot of velocity, therefor it has a hell of a lot of momentum). They are also shaped very differently (I think), and have very different sizes. Also, the Sabot does not turn to a superheated gas. You are overestimating the stopping power of armor. Did you know that a Kevlar jacket will not stop anything above a pistol round, unless you are very lucky? And hard ceramic body armor will not stop anything bigger than a rifle round. An ordinary rifle bullet will go through two inches of steel and still be able to kill. Your argument about uniforms being able to protect the crew against shrapnel has no base whatsoever. First, you will be lucky to find a bit of shrapnel that slow among the thousands that are whizzing through the tank. So even if you stop one, the rest would get you. Second, any piece of shrapnel that can be stopped by cloth would not be able to kill you even if you were butt naked. Third and most importantly, shrapnel is the least of a crew's concerns when a DPU round hits the tank.

Where are you coming up with your "facts?" The fact that there are almost none that agree with you might give you a clue that you are very wrong. Do you have military experience? I don't, but I have first hand information from many, many sources as well as books on this subject.

I'm not holding you to your original statements that the Avenger cannon is useless against tanks. What I am saying is that one round can destroy a tank. I don't know about the front armor, but I highly doubt that it would take more than three. Every hole would weaken the structural integrity. You definately wouldn't need to make more than one strafing run.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just to prove you wrong once again...<span id='postcolor'>

When was the first time? The only person I see being proved wrong here is you, and by many people. You, however, continue to fight on with your own made-up arguments. If I was wrong, I'd admit it. It has nothing to do with my opinion being correct, it has to do with your facts being wrong.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For a 30mm bullet travelling at approximately 1,100 meters per second to penetrate almost half a meter worth of modern tank armour is extremely unlikely.<span id='postcolor'>

The armour isn't as thick up-top, you know that.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When I said the Avenger won't penetrate the armor of modern MBTs I meant the heavy main armor in the front. I wasn't talking about the thin blankets of steel on tank's sides/back/top. <span id='postcolor'>

What part of the tank do you think an A-10 pilot would aim for? When attacking from above, you tend to hit the roof.

Tyler

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

Kermit is right about hollow points.I rember shooting a phone book with a .22 hollow point, and all a hollow point is, is just a hole in the tip of the bullet, which allows it to "mushroom out".so the bullet is twice its size.But any how, i shot the phone book, and the front of the book, the hole was small, and at the end it was bigger then the front.I have also shot the phone book with a .30 hollow point, and same result.But the rear of the book, was a real mess.So i dont think i would want to get shot by one of those, or else you have a huge hole in your back.

[EBass 0]

Jeez this always happens, Yes I was chief of the armed services at the US for 50 years and I have calculated that the A-10 has a 65.083269032562356237523978450123495123945% chance of killing a T-80 at a range of 495.139832065325896592365230562905862305m unless an unknown factor of 3.2318047136315097613590 is taken into account we can safely say that 99.999999999999999% is totally pointless and irrevelant to flashpoint which does this all rather well despite what all you military buffs know

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jeez this always happens, Yes I was chief of the armed services at the US for 50 years and I have calculated that the A-10 has a 65.083269032562356237523978450123495123945% chance of killing a T-80 at a range of 495.139832065325896592365230562905862305m unless an unknown factor of 3.2318047136315097613590 is taken into account we can safely say that 99.999999999999999% is totally pointless and irrevelant to flashpoint which does this all rather well despite what all you military buffs know<span id='postcolor'>

Is this guy speaking english?

[Satchel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sadico @ June 05 2002,15:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> The T72s and the T80s didnt stand a chance.<span id='postcolor'>

No t80's in Iraq, man. Just export versions of the t72 using steel sabots and heat rounds against m1's. Of course they didn't stand a chance <span id='postcolor'>

They didn´t, and this is what it looked like practially:

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

*gulp*

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

Oh hey that says 2nd U.S Cavalry.I wonder if they are the 2nd AD(armored division)?My dad served with the 1st CAV, then was transferd to the 2nd AD.

[m79 0]

Where did you get that cool pic from?

[advocatexxx 0]

LOL Kermit !

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can't compare a Sabot round to a DPU round!  They're nothing like.<span id='postcolor'>

First it's DU (Depleted Uranium), not DPU, and second, US-made Sabot rounds ARE DU rounds.  Example:  APFSDS-T rounds like the M829A1 stands for Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot - Tracer.

If you're referring to Soviet made 125mm shell Sabot rounds you should mention that as your communication skills are hardly clear.  Even then, any Sabot round works very much the same.  Only difference is that the modern US-made 120mm shell Sabot rounds are propelled with more energy and have a denser DU penetrator.  Basics however are the same for most tank Sabot shells - they use their hard and heavy arrow tip to rip through a tank using nothing but kinetic energy.  For you to say "they're nothing alike" goes to show just how much you know brother.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">An ordinary rifle bullet will go through two inches of steel and still be able to kill.<span id='postcolor'>

Again, this goes to show just how miseducated you are on the subject.  Please, be my guest, fire a 5.56mm NATO round from an M16 at a 2-inch thick steel block and see if it not only fully penetrates it but ends up having enough energy to kill someone behind it.  Unless some divine power intervenes then I assure you that rifle round will NOT penetrate the steel block, much less come out on the other side with lethal power.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I am saying is that one round can destroy a tank.<span id='postcolor'>

Clearly you're referring to a single 30mm API round fired from the Avenger gun.  Well brother, one such round certainly CAN destroy a tank, but such chances are extremely thin.  Dozens of these 30mm API rounds hitting a tank will more likely succeed, but one is hardly enough.

Not to sound repetitive, but in your quest to constantly bash my arguments by presenting these laughable opinions only goes to show how hard-headed you are by simply refusing to acknowledge that you are a fool.

Sorry brother, but a rifle round like the one fired from an M16 WILL NOT penetrate a 2-inch steel block, Sabot and DU rounds fired from a tank ARE very much the same thing (except for a few minor differences) and are NOT completely different as you claim.

Any person with even the basic education in physics and military equipment will agree with me on that.

Now, now.  Don't come up with another pointless post, just slowly crawl away in shame : )

[Satchel 0]

I suspect the DU projectile ignited the T-72´s munition stored in the carussell or floor, hence the extensive damage and blown away turret.

Result of Bundeswehr firing tests conducted on former NVA T-72M1. The above picture shows 120mm KE (APFSDS) hits on the turret, notice the characteristic star pattern around the holes, they are caused by the stabilisation fins of the KE rod.

T-72M1 turret roof after HEAT impact, notice a star-like pattern around the impact point is missing. Despite the very flat hit angle on the well sloped T-72 turret armor, the round succeeded to penetrate.

T-72M1 glacis with 16mm additional armor plate, to the left APFSDS impact result probably 120mm, to the right probably small shaped charge warhead hit.

The force of the KE penetrator rod impacting on the hull had been partially diverted upwards, what ripped open the additional 16mm armor plate mounted on the glacis like a banana.

In both cases the the T-72M1´s front glacis armor had been penetrated, the tanks glacis armor is rated 690±20mm vs APFSDS and 940±40mm vs HEAT.

An shaped charge warhead hit on the T-72M1´s cannon, despite the the very flat angle, the cannon has been penetrated completey.

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

It's nice to know our rounds can do that. Nicce pictures satchel.

[Satchel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (M79 @ June 06 2002,02:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where did you get that cool pic from?<span id='postcolor'>

I found it here:

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

That the enemy blood?

[ChickenHawk 0]

I have some good military pictures too.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SKULLS_Viper @ June 06 2002,02:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

That the enemy blood?<span id='postcolor'>

I think that's corrosion, not blood.

Great pics, satchel. Thanks for posting them and that link. Yet another page to peruse

[advocatexxx 0]

Lol, not quite. It's the extreme temperature caused by the friction of the penetrator that cause the tank paint to evaporate and the steel ends up covered in reddish-brown coating of iron-oxide.

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ June 06 2002,02:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SKULLS_Viper @ June 06 2002,02:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

That the enemy blood?<span id='postcolor'>

I think that's corrosion, not blood.

Great pics, satchel. Thanks for posting them and that link. Yet another page to peruse <span id='postcolor'>

I was just joking.

haha, good one chicken hawk.

[Satchel 0]

No, i think the T-72M1´s were empty and stripped of fuel and munition when they test fired on them, i doubt anyone volunteered for experiencing the damage first hand from inside as the rounds hit .

It´s actually the paint burned away by the immense heat upon impact.

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

hehe, now i can stick out my AK-74 and fire at the enemy!

[Benze 0]

Advocate, arguing with you is pointless. Oh, by the way:

Sorry, you are wrong once again. Please stop making stuff up. You know jack shiznit, and you know that.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ June 05 2002,04:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Aww guys, leave poor advocate alone. His specialty is Quantum/Astro physics... not this confusing weapons stuff!

This site has some before and after pics of an M-60 tank, and an animated gif made up of frames showing the effect of this monster.<span id='postcolor'>

hehehe that page has funny music that reminds me of the 16-bit era of videogames