Feedback and Questions for BIS

[toby23 10]

Hi BIS,

After trying out the beta preview and the full version of Take On Helicopters, I've got some feedback and questions for you.

1. Why do you have such a low distance for LOD for 3d models. Buildings are changing shape 100m from my helicopter, they shouldn't be.

2. Why do the clouds 'melt' when I turn my head? They don't do that in real life.

3. Add an option to disable the restrictive 'realistic head attached to shoulders' view. This is one of the most annoying things about this game.

4. Please change the restrictions on view angle. It is completely unrealistic and uncomfortable. I do not want to hold ALT to look around, if you have Track-IR, then you should be able to use it as intended, to look around.

5. Why do all sounds fade out when you receive radio communications? Completely pointless and ruins any immersion, as well as making it dangerous to fly, if you use the sound of the engine as notification of problems.

6. Don't pause the game to save it, especially not at key points... Either allow user saves with F5 or do background saving. Do not pause my game to save it... that is so annoying.

7. Why do buildings on the horizon all shimmer as if AA isn't being applied properly? What does 4-8 mean in the settings? Please don't be so cryptic, just add normal easy to understand settings. Or even better, allow me to use my own AA settings set via Nvidia Inspector, for example. I want 8xs and transparency AA but I can't force it.

8. Autogen buildings pop in around 2km radius. This is too close, how can I change this distance?

9. There are lots of Z buffer texture fighting issues, perhaps this is just with Nvidia cards but I doubt it. If you could fix this it would be great.

10. Instead of clipping all autogen buildings and trees at the view distance limit setting, how about adding a realistic haze at this point as well, so that it doesn't look so bad? Haze is your friend...

11. Please make motion blur a separate setting. I cannot get the OktNoBlur ARMA mod to work with TOH, perhaps you could add a setting to remove it?

12. Why does post processing make everything look like butter was rubbed in my eyes? Could you perhaps add post processing without making everything go soft?

13. When you turn your head in the small helicopter cockpit, you look through the 3d model. Please correct this bug.

14. Spelling mistakes are unprofessional and litter this game. Proof readers are cheap and I would be happy to help you, for only the price of the game.

All in all, I'm pretty disappointed that I spent 40 euros on this as it stands today.

I love ARMA2 and own all the add-ons and consider that much more professional and finished.

I really enjoy the mission aspect and the Asia scenery is much better than the US scenery but it is still not the best you could do, I am sure. I don't wish to compare this scenery to FSX scenery but I know what is possible with your engine and you can do much more. Perhaps you could consider adding an option for ARMA2 ground textures, which would also boost performance.

I hope that we see a patch that boosts performance soon. I run an i7 @ 4.5ghz and have 2xGTX580 in sli and the performance is nowhere near as good as what I get playing ARMA2 with all the add-ons and mods.

Take On Helicopters feels like you had a meeting and thought, 'hey, we've got the engine, let's make a new flight model, add some new scenery and we could have a new game out in 12 months.'

Forgive me if this is wrong but that's the impression I get, and I shouldn't.

I shouldn't be seeing anything ARMA in this game. Get rid of the ARMA compass, gps and watch in the map. Replace them with versions more fitting to this game.. Remove the ARMA2 keyboard shortcuts. Imagine that you're a new TOH customer who has no experience with ARMA... or ask someone who is.

Please keep working on TOH. It could be fantastic.

I look forward to seeing what happens.

Toby

[Dwarden 1125]

i try answer some:

1.

screenshots or video?

2.

TBA tho screenshots / video would help to answer

3.

explain more, You mean lean or turn or move torso or what?

4.

FOV changes , read e.g. http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=126572&highlight=fovleft

5.

TBA

6.

TBA

7.

2x,4x,6x,8x etc. this is standard in anti-aliasing settings for decade ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_anti-aliasing#Super_Sampling_.2F_Full-scene_anti-aliasing

e.g. 2x FSAA would render 4 supersampled pixels for each single pixel of each frame etc.

also you can use multiple forms of AA in our engine, including the enforced from NVIDIA control panel (just disable AA ingame)

8.

tried use object view distance slider in advanced video options?

9.

screenshots or video to showcase it?

10.

TBA, more detailed explain what/why probably needed to formulate answer

11.

probably ask author to make one for TOH as the shaders are different

i agree separated motion blur would be great option, it's considered for future (wip)

12.

which pp settings, any screenshot ?

13.

possible provide screenshot?

14.

please provide details what / where are spelling mistakes

note: this is nor ARMA 2 / OA so You can't exactly compare the performance (in 1:1 way)

speaking of the ground textures and close-up, try remember the GB size of the game already

(ofcourse we will look into how improve it w/o need to have many more GBs download)

also don't hesitate to use TOH Community Issue Tracker to report bugs, vote on already existing tickets or help improve them with additional details

Edited October 30, 2011 by Dwarden

[toby23 10]

Hi Dwarden,

Your quick reply on a sunday evening is much appreciated.

1. I cannot provide video at the moment, sorry.

Please just accept that I am seeing buildings change shape in front of me.

I understand how LOD works but this is too close.

2. Look out of the side window and move your head, the clouds appear to melt.

3. Do not attach the head to the body. Leave it free. I want complete freedom of head movement. I can restrict this with Track-IR settings.

4. Sorry I didn't mean FOV. I meant that I want to be free to look around without having to press and hold ALT.

7. That's what I thought. I hadn't tried disabling in-game but that works great and moving the AA to the GPU has given me a huge performance boost.

8. Yes, tried. I have now set maximum view distance.

9. Again, no video but the buildings have flickering problems. It is the same problem often seen in FSX when two textures are laid over each other, eg door on building.

10. I would like to see a fog at the edge of the view distance instead of nothing. Unlimited view distance is rare around Seattle. Maximum ground level view distance is around 30-40m, at 6000ft around 60m on a very clear day, more normally 40m. Just add fog to the horizon to simulate low visibility and this will hide the objects popping in.

11. I can try. I just want an option to disable motion blur.

12. Sorry I just don't like the BIS PP setting making everything blurry. It's not simulating depth of field by making everything blurry. I will try to get used to it.

13. I don't have a screenshot. Just try the training missions in the small helicopter, with Track-IR, and look out of the left window.

14. I can't give you a list. You can refund the price of my game and I will help you to find and repair all of the spelling mistakes but not for free for a commercial software. They are in the subtitles as well as in the textures.

Ground Textures

I personally don't care how large these files are.

I use photoscenery that goes up to 30gb for FSX.

I know everyone doesn't have the bandwidth or HD space for these kind of files but I think that people would be happy with 5-10gb extra download for super ground textures.

Thanks again for your help and quick reply.

Toby

[purepassion 22]

regarding the freelook: double tap ALT ;)

[Dwarden 1125]

read bottom of this page

http://www.ripten.com/2011/10/28/ripten-interview-take-on-helicopters/2/

the texture part is explained in great detail

[sjaba 19]

Hi there, thx for a nice game..

I have allready spent quite some time with HOTAS here and still having fun. However there are certain things that i was expecting from day one. One being ATC communication, i kind of took this as granted calling it a sim. I must admit i was looking long and hard to find the ATC settings, but never found them. Also it seems to be to much instruments and switches in the helos are just for show ?? Coming from a DCS A10 experience, its a bit hard to see this as a full bodied simulator. Ie, i bought a flir and HD camera for my chopper, i really would like to try them out, without it beeing a scripted contract. How coool would it be to be able to take som snapshots for your self...

Secondly i must admit to the feelings and comments of Toby23 here, it feels a bit unpolished and semi arma1/arma2 ish..

Beeing a BIS Games fan since ofp days i dident expect all to be 100% from day one, giving the level of ambition you guys are on, but i was hoping for a bit more "smooth" ride upon release.

I really hope that the plan is to contiune the great bug fix and pacthing service that you currently are doing with arma2. I believe this have great potential for being a new type of flight simulator, its just not right there yet.

try remember the GB size of the game already

Bring it on I say :)

Keep up the good work, ill keep on practising those landings meanwhile.

p.s just to mention it, atleast i could not hear the ROOAAARR from the speedboat, when cruising over the chanel :)

Edited October 30, 2011 by Sjaba

[AS350 10]

read bottom of this page

http://www.ripten.com/2011/10/28/ripten-interview-take-on-helicopters/2/

the texture part is explained in great detail

thanks Dwarden for the link

I think to ground textures are not so bad and i totally agree there are some problems to put HD textures on the DVD or explode the download connections;)

The question is, if it would be technically possible to use HD textures in TOH, can the engine handle HD textures??

If yes, players with a good hardware and a fast internet connection, could download a HD texture update pack like a photoscenery in FSX:)

[CarlGustaffa 4]

2.

TBA tho screenshots / video would help to answer

I'm only guessing this, regarding "melting clouds":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjwx6EWhO60

Keep watching the clouds and how they change appearance by looking in different directions. If this changing was coupled to time, it would be awesome "cloud dynamics", but fails when coupled to view direction :)

[dale0404 5]

Video removed Carl.

[whiskeytango 11]

They look great so don't worry about it. I'm really enjoying the game. It's not a study sim and it never pretended to be one.

I seem to have trouble finding how to interact with objects - quite often I need to crouch to find the Get In as Pilot icon etc. I'm having hours of fun playing the career though!

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@dale0404: Yeah, noticed he got banned here and at youtube :p But I guess Dwarden still have the video in his cache so he can see the problem. I'd post a cropped version of it if I had the speed. I've seen the effect elsewhere too, just can't find it atm.

Btw, wouldn't mind to see some more videos from the game guys. Some of us won't be able to get it for a while.

[whiskeytango 11]

I will put one together so you can see my terrible skillz.

[Cobra6 10]

Hi BIS,

4. Please change the restrictions on view angle. It is completely unrealistic and uncomfortable. I do not want to hold ALT to look around, if you have Track-IR, then you should be able to use it as intended, to look around.

13. When you turn your head in the small helicopter cockpit, you look through the 3d model. Please correct this bug.

4. Try enabling you TrackIR as a controller in the option menu, that way it should function like normal. you need to enable it, otherwise it won't work properly, can't see any sane reason why though if it's connected to thesystem.

13. True, I've experienced that a lot.

Cobra 6

[toby23 10]

read bottom of this page

http://www.ripten.com/2011/10/28/ripten-interview-take-on-helicopters/2/

the texture part is explained in great detail

Great interview Dwarden..

The game still has to be distributed on DVD and average Internet connections.

Why don't you offer a higher resolution version for download only then?

The digital download installer was nearly 14gb.

The ground textures really let this game down.

I don't want to focus on ground textures but for a game that prides itself on low level flight, detailed ground textures should be a priority.

That and high resolution cockpit textures. Those used now are unacceptable.

You can't even read the labels, they are so blurry..

It's your job to convince us that we are in a helicopter.

Part of that comes through a believable and detailed cockpit.

I'm only guessing this, regarding "melting clouds":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjwx6EWhO60

Keep watching the clouds and how they change appearance by looking in different directions. If this changing was coupled to time, it would be awesome "cloud dynamics", but fails when coupled to view direction :)

Unfortunately the video has been removed but that is exactly my point. If the 'dynamic' clouds were linked to change over time, that would be great but linking them to head movement is just wrong.

Toby

Edited October 31, 2011 by toby23

[AS350 10]

push up;)

I have made a new video that shows the cloud bug (melting clouds)

it seems the problem is in the outside view bigger as in the inside view:confused:

another question for BIS

is there planed in the future to insert the warning lights from the HUD in the cockpit, or is this a job for a modder;)

Thanks

Mark

[4 IN 1 0]

Great interview Dwarden..

Why don't you offer a higher resolution version for download only then?

The digital download installer was nearly 14gb.

The ground textures really let this game down.

I don't want to focus on ground textures but for a game that prides itself on low level flight, detailed ground textures should be a priority.

That and high resolution cockpit textures. Those used now are unacceptable.

You can't even read the labels, they are so blurry..

It's your job to convince us that we are in a helicopter.

Part of that comes through a believable and detailed cockpit.

Unfortunately the video has been removed but that is exactly my point. If the 'dynamic' clouds were linked to change over time, that would be great but linking them to head movement is just wrong.

Toby

HD ground texture: The current texture resolution combined with the object count alone is already enough to kill most of the middle range rig on the planet if you try to boost your VD over 10000KM. But of cause I can't tell what kind of rig you are using, might be some ubber NASA standard rig that can handle that kind of workload.

HD cockpit texture: the current texture is hard to read if you don't use zoom in function, problem is that you are viewing the cockpit through a 22"-25" display, which makes the instrument panel appears atless 4 times further away as in RL cockpit, in other flight sims that support TIR, the effect is removed by 6DOF itself, sadly in TakOH its not the case, because 6DOF function is somewhat limited or incomplete.

Here is what I think BI should do: get someone to use the motion cap studio that they already have, strap him/her onto the rig that they built to make animation and use it to map out the area that pilot/co-pilot can have their head to move about, then connect the head and the body using IK, this is the only way to allow pilot head to move reasonably realistic without risking the model to punch through cockpit model while enable the head to still be attach to their body.

[RUBIX 10]

toby23,

I think I may have an answer to some of you texture/level of detail issues. I too had some issues with LOD always changing on me. I would fly around with texture detail on VERY HIGH and it would start out great...then after a short time everything would blur out and go to near minimum detail. After reading how and why BIS put some of the options in the Advanced section of the Video Settings, I realized what I was doing it wrong. I was thinking, "I have an awesome machine, and everything should be VERY HIGH." Well, it turned out that by setting the VIDEO MEMORY to VERY HIGH screwed up how the engine processes LOD. Just change the VIDEO MEMORY to DEFAULT and let me know if this fixes some of the things you mentioned:

# LOD changing 100m away

# Ground scenery detail at unacceptable levels

# Unreadable Cockpits

Here is a link to a good read about VIDEO SETTINGS ( http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=126178 )

Thanks,

RUBIX

[twisted 128]

HD ground texture: The current texture resolution combined with the object count alone is already enough to kill most of the middle range rig on the planet if you try to boost your VD over 10000KM. But of cause I can't tell what kind of rig you are using, might be some ubber NASA standard rig that can handle that kind of workload.

just a head up that i doesnt really take a nasa rig. i built a pc for just over $700 (intel 2500, 2GB 6950, 8GB ram) and it runs with everything set at high and 12km viewdistance. the catch is no AA though. but that's ok. TKOH runs smoother and seems more optimised than arma2 by a long way.

[4 IN 1 0]

just a head up that i doesnt really take a nasa rig. i built a pc for just over $700 (intel 2500, 2GB 6950, 8GB ram) and it runs with everything set at high and 12km viewdistance. the catch is no AA though. but that's ok. TKOH runs smoother and seems more optimised than arma2 by a long way.

Mind if I ask what will happen when apply high AA? :p