Take On Difficulty Settings!

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Just don't push the button!

Not sure how that prevents other fakey pilots from playing on my server.

[OMAC 254]

Well, that's not going to make release, but it's certainly something we'll evaluate for post-launch support.

More likely, we'd tie it to a difficulty option, set is as disabled for expert, but not lock it out, as Auto-Hover - to some degree- is there to compensate for things we simply can't simulate, like the inner ear balance, etc.

Best,

RiE

In all the previews, and in the beta, auto-hover was enabled on Expert by default, in part to "compensate for things we simply can't simulate, like the inner ear balance, etc." I therefore find it difficult to understand why RiE is now considering disabling it by default on Expert, especially as I do not recall any discussions in the preview forum threads complaining about it.

Auto hover is also nice if you have to go to the bathroom, answer the phone (ESC will also work :)), and ESSENTIAL if you have to pause to read your map in flight. After all, this is a game. Users have the option to not use auto-hover if they don't want to, although its existence as an option is intolerable to some who apparently cannot resist the temptation to use it.

Disabling it for Expert post-release would be a mistake imo, as that would fundamentally change how the game is played, even if the difficulty settings can be edited to enable it. If it is disabled by default, editing the settings to enable it is most definitely cheating. To date, use of auto-hover on Expert is most definitely NOT CHEATING, and many have used it extensively in the previews and beta. If it is disabled by default in the future, all that experience would be negated. Even when auto-hover is engaged, careful inputs to the heli controls are required for precision landings and sling-line operations, especially in strong winds.

To satisfy hard-core players, especially those who don't want auto-hover enabled on their servers, the option to disable it on Expert should be added to the difficulty settings.

In short, I agree with BIS' decisions regarding auto-hover to date, and am surprised that BIS is considering altering these decisions at this late date to satisfy a select few when other options to satisfy them are available which will not fundamentally alter preview and beta gameplay.

Edited October 16, 2011 by OMAC

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

Not sure how that prevents other fakey pilots from playing on my server.

fakey pilots? please take your elitism somewhere else.

I bet you play with crosshairs ... fakey shooter person. ;)

[dale0404 5]

If i have problems in a mission, i want the possibility of lowering the mission difficulty, without changing the flight model, that's an intrinsic part of why i am playing it in first place.

I would like to think I would keep it on the same difficulty level until I master it, no lower the difficulty to make things easier, but thats the way I play I suppose...

[CarlGustaffa 4]

-Ziggy-;2038358']fakey pilots? please take your elitism somewhere else.

I bet you play with crosshairs ... fakey shooter person. ;)

Nothing to do with elitism. When going for a server that sets up a hard challenge, you don't want to enable auto hover so that landings become piece of cake when it's supposed to be part of the challenge. But as I said, if autohover was only available above normal mission flying heights, say 1000 feet, I wouldn't have a problem with people activating it to take a leak or answer their phone. But cheap landings, which is a crucial and hard part of the flight? No thanks.

Actually, I've pretty much given up on public gaming, because too many servers have crosshairs and 3rd person enabled, and there is nothing I can do to remove crosshairs since mods usually not allowed. So I'm pretty much forced to play on our own servers only, which aren't open to public because of cheating and soem weird signature problems locking us out from using verifysignatures = 2.

Crosshairs, me? I don't think you find anyone around here who hates it more.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

I agree with everything but the fakey pilots part :D

[liquidpinky 11]

Not sure how that prevents other fakey pilots from playing on my server.

You won't have to worry about it.

Once you get that strict, no one is going to play on your server. Let alone the fakey pilots.

[OMAC 254]

I will soon be releasing a ToH mod that not only disables auto-hover and cross-hairs, but also simulates you having only one arm, one leg, and one eye. Also I have added a slider that simulates blood-alcohol level, with the default setting being 1.5%. So your one eye is seeing double with intense blurring as well. That should keep those fakey pilots off my server! ;)

Edited October 16, 2011 by OMAC

[maddogx 13]

Hehe, looks like CG trod on a few toes there. :D

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Hehe. It was supposed to be funny, but looking back I guess it appears as flame baiting, and someone took the bait :p Anyhow, I doubt we'll setup these as TAKOH servers, and probably just rely on hosted setups when we want to do MP. And I'm mostly in it for the SP part anyways.

With "fakey pilots" I mean what I see often in A2/OA. Someone claiming to be good pilots (and actually flies well). But when I enter cockpit when I can, auto hover is turned on. This in A2/OA where rough landings are exceptionally forgiving and easy as hell in the first place. Or how they can't fly/land well without resorting to 3rd person.

Too easy settings on veteran modes killed public A2/OA gaming for me. Sorry if I enjoy realism, but that's why I prefer these games. At the same time, I'm not fanatic about it, as long as it seems to make some sense. But autohover during landing makes no sense.

Landing is a critical phase of flight. It shouldn't be made super easy and negotiable simply by activating a "cheat switch".

Edit, for real helicopter pilots:

For helicopters with autopilot installed, can this be used to actually land the helicopter? Thinking of some kind of compromise here, where collective is disabled if autohover (altitude hold) is engaged, and possibly enabled as a purchasable upgrade. That could make it mission specific rather than difficulty specific - no point having this in a landing competition mission :p

Edited October 17, 2011 by CarlGustaffa

[OMAC 254]

And I'm mostly in it for the SP part anyways.

Me too, by far.

Compared to landing without it, autohover is kind of a "cheat switch." But so far it is NOT a cheat switch, as BIS has been kind enough to enable its use on Expert (:bounce3:). And disabling by default would make Expert so unbelievably hard that it would turn many off. I truly believe that the way difficulty settings are configured now is just about perfect. And, importantly, I am used to them. :)

Maybe in a mission or two, the chopper will be damaged and autohover broken, so one will be forced to land without it? Hmmm.

I don't normally use 3rd person view when landing, but you should try it on the SWAT support mission. You can see the guys slide down the rope - much more exciting than just looking at the dials in the cockpit. It doesn't really make things much easier.

[maddogx 13]

And disabling by default would make Expert so unbelievably hard that it would turn many off.

Isn't the whole point of expert that should be unbelievably hard? I always thought that the training wheels should be for beginner mode, then comes intermediate where the training wheels are off but some optional helpers remain. Then there's expert, where you basically have to fly that shit properly, no hand holding.

I get the feeling some people just want to play expert because it makes them feel good, not because they actually want the game to be hard.

And just a little disclaimer before someone starts accusing me of elitism: I still play on beginner.

[OMAC 254]

Isn't the whole point of expert that should be unbelievably hard? I always thought that the training wheels should be for beginner mode, then comes intermediate where the training wheels are off but some optional helpers remain. Then there's expert, where you basically have to fly that shit properly, no hand holding.

I get the feeling some people just want to play expert because it makes them feel good, not because they actually want the game to be hard.

And just a little disclaimer before someone starts accusing me of elitism: I still play on beginner.

So you're second-guessing BIS without ever having played on Expert? It looks like you don't have any idea what you are writing about! Quit your yammering and condescension and play the game! :rolleyes:

[sickboy 13]

Been playing it on Beginner and found it already interesting to try and master.

Tried some of the challenges on Expert and found it really difficult, and even more fun to try and master, and so rewarding when you were able to complete something that seemed impossible :)

[Mr. Charles 22]

Imho, there should be a 4th setting between trainee and expert. I'd love to keep the gauges, but there is autotrim in trainee. In MP that could be really cumbersome, as I'd have to check the right settings to enjoy myself.

[OMAC 254]

I just beat the Silver time on the Railroaded time trial, playing on Expert. I have never been more immersed for 2 minutes in a video game! Talk about seat-of-your-pants flying! I'm muttering, "WHOOOOOAAAA," as I'm making those hard, high-speed banks through the skyscrapers. After I was done, I couldn't believe that I made it - when I first played it, I thought it would be utterly impossible to beat any of the times, but somehow I have learned. Surmounting and dismissing fear and trepidation is an important and awesome aspect of playing ToH! In a way, flying so fast and dangerously is scarier than playing Trial By Fire on Utes with your squad!

Mr. Charles, one solution is to play on Expert to get rid of autotrim, but enable full HUD in the Expert settings, so that you can use ^H to enable the gauges when absolutely necessary. Before long, you won't even need the gauges anymore - they can be distracting. It's fantastic how you learn to use your senses to feel the heli after a while.

Edited October 18, 2011 by OMAC

[maddogx 13]

So you're second-guessing BIS without ever having played on Expert? It looks like you don't have any idea what you are writing about! Quit your yammering and condescension and play the game! :rolleyes:

Easily offended, aren't you? :rolleyes:

FYI I have tried playing on expert mode but it's currently impossible for me to play without autotrim, hence I turn the difficulty down a notch... because that's what the difficulty settings are for. That's also how I found out that autohover is not a difficulty option, as I feel it should be. Hence the suggestion in my original post, which the devs are apparently taking under advisement. So in that respect I'm happy.

Btw. you completely ignored the point I was making in my last post, which is that expert difficulty is supposed to be hard (training wheels and helper features off etc.). That's why it's called expert after all.

[OMAC 254]

Your "point" was obvious. But since you have not mastered flying without autotrim, it is impossible for you to make meaningful suggestions about difficulty settings imo. In other words, you have no idea how difficult Expert already is. And, most importantly, the training wheels ARE ALREADY OFF on Expert. All you have to do for 100% total difficulty is NOT USE AUTOHOVER.

[maddogx 13]

Your "point" was obvious. But since you have not mastered flying without autotrim, it is impossible for you to make meaningful suggestions about difficulty settings imo. In other words, you have no idea how difficult Expert already is.

That makes no sense at all. Autotrim and autohover are two different things... I don't need to "master" manual trim to conclude that autohover is basically a cheat, and I tried playing expert mode long enough, thanks. Stop making assumptions.

Btw. to be clear about autohover being a cheat: roll your helicopter on its back at 200-300 meters altitude and try to recover from that manually. Pretty much impossible. Then try the same with autohover... saves you every time. It's a "press X to not die" button that pretty much disables the flight model. How does something like that belong in expert mode?

And, most importantly, the training wheels ARE ALREADY OFF on Expert. All you have to do for 100% total difficulty is NOT USE AUTOHOVER.

"JUST DON'T USE IT!!!" is such an infantile argument. I guess BIS could add a rocket launcher with infinite ammo to every mission in Arma3... don't like it? JUST DON'T USE IT!!!! Right? :rolleyes:

I say again, expert mode should be there for a reason, which is being the top of the learning curve. A feature like autohover has no place there.

Btw. so far I haven't heard a single real argument from you as to why autohover is a good thing that should be in expert mode. All I hear are ad hominem attacks and the frequent chant that people who don't like it can just ignore it. What gives?

Edited October 18, 2011 by MadDogX

[scarp 10]

There absolutly should be a autohover or a autopilot function at least on the heavier models. Simply because they exist in RL. Good enough argument for you :)

Another thing is that it is a nice pause thingy, even for us real pilots. I dont use it to fly, just to either chat or check the map. In RL, it is not that hard to check your map, kinda harder in TKOH because of what it is, a game/simulation with it's limitations and functions. Hence, the need to 'cheat' once in a while (wich in my opinion is not cheating at all, it is a way to work around limitations). But when I fly, I fly.

But, I just got an idea. Would it be too much to ask, to instead of having a simple autohover, you could opt for having a "flying instructor" beside you who could take over more or less in the same fashion as the autopilot?

Difference could be that, not only did you have a visual person besides you (instr. should be wearing a big, pink cowboy hat too so everyone could easily single out who's who he he) but there could also be some simple audio triggers as well such as "you're nowhere near soloing yet" and stuff like that just for fun?

That would bring another level for the novice, at least it would feel much more different in terms of immersion while it's still actually pretty much the same as autohover.

Perhaps not doable before release, but it would be a nice fuction tho.

But the ultimate would be to have a proper autopilot with hovering capabilities....could we have one BIS? please?

Edited October 18, 2011 by scarp

[maddogx 13]

There absolutly should be a autohover or a autopilot function at least on the heavier models. Simply because they exist in RL. Good enough argument for you :)

Absolutely. :)

Definitely better than telling me to bugger off because I suck too hard to be allowed an opinion. Not to mention the old "just ignore it" chestnut.

Any chopper that actually has an autohover function should obviously have it.

Another thing is that it is a nice pause thingy, even for us real pilots.

I liked CarlGustaffas suggestion to only allow autohover above a certain altitude. That should be good enough as a pause feature.

But, I just got an idea. Would it be too much to ask, to instead of having a simple autohover, you could opt for having a "flying instructor" beside you who could take over more or less in the same fashion as the autopilot?

Difference could be that, not only did you have a visual person besides you (instr. should be wearing a big, pink cowboy hat too so everyone could easily single out who's who he he) but there could also be some simple audio triggers as well such as "you're nowhere near soloing yet" and stuff like that just for fun?

That would bring another level for the novice, at least it would feel much more different in terms of immersion while it's still actually pretty much the same as autohover.

Perhaps not doable before release, but it would be a nice fuction tho.

Nice idea, but this probably wouldn't fit in every mission. :D

But the ultimate would be to have a proper autopilot with hovering capabilities....could we have one BIS? please?

+1

[sickboy 13]

Any helo has auto-hover? (At least the ones depicted in the game?)

If not, then perhaps on expert you still only get it for those choppers that really have it?

[OMAC 254]

Btw. so far I haven't heard a single real argument from you as to why autohover is a good thing that should be in expert mode. All I hear are ad hominem attacks and the frequent chant that people who don't like it can just ignore it. What gives?

Well, so far BIS agrees, and they have extensively play tested all difficulty levels, unlike you. You obviously have not played Expert enough to know what you are talking about. That is not an ad hominem attack. Playing with autotrim on is completely different than with it off (both are lots of fun), and greatly affects stability and difficulty. Autohover is nowhere near as necessary when autotrim is on, but I think that is a very important option to have on all difficulty settings, for multiple reasons which have been stated repeatedly.

I was taking it for granted that autohover is a realistic function present on the modeled helis. Autopilot exists in RL, right? Doesn't autohover? I'm no pilot.

Edited October 18, 2011 by OMAC

[maddogx 13]

You obviously have not played Expert enough to know what you are talking about.

Well, just for you, I checked my current settings to see what mystical expert features I am currently missing. Not only did I realise that I've been on Trainee (intermediate) difficulty all this time instead of beginner, but also the only difference between my settings and the default expert settings is the enabled autotrim. Everything else is the same.

Playing with autotrim on is completely different than with it off (both are lots of fun), and greatly affects stability and difficulty. Autohover is nowhere near as necessary when autotrim is on, but I think that is a very important option to have on all difficulty settings, for multiple reasons which have been stated repeatedly.

You are obviously right about autotrim greatly affecting stability, though I'm still not entirely convinced that disabling it makes autohover necessary. :)

The main reason I use autotrim is because I play the game with a gamepad, not a joystick, and the analog sticks simply aren't sensitive enough to make sufficiently fine trim adjustments. Otherwise, I've been playing in first person without ever using autohover since the beginning and have mastered landing pretty well.

I guess I'll have to start using manual trim and see if it really makes landing that much harder. Because if I can land a chopper on expert (without autohover) using a game pad, I'd say it can't be too difficult for expert mode, especially for someone with proper flight gear. ;)

[royaltyinexile 175]

Hi, guys,

Thanks for your thoughts (particularly finding those 'deliberate' errors ;))!

In short, I agree with BIS' decisions regarding auto-hover to date, and am surprised that BIS is considering altering these decisions at this late date

You can rest assured that any decisions we've made regarding gameplay are locked for release! However, we think it's fair enough to evaluate what we can do with feedback post-launch, particularly with such a user-centric subject as difficulty options.

We noticed much of the feedback from problems in the playable missions were associated with missing gameplay helpers like markers and gauge-hints (most often missing due to difficulty option settings).

The main focus of this post - and with new texts now in game - was to explain the 'current state' and make sure that the explanations were understandable. :)

Best,

RiE