Wall Street Occupation

[Spokesperson 0]

People are struggling for democracy and freedom on the streets of NYC, Chicago, Denver and in numerous other cities across North America:

https://occupywallst.org/

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Nobody Can Predict The Moment Of Revolution

Edited September 28, 2011 by W0lle
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[ProfTournesol 956]

Sadly, you don't know what democracy and freedom are.

[Spokesperson 0]

I know very well what it means. But you got to ask yourself, freedom for who to do what? Freedom in this case is not the freedom of the owners to exploit their wage-slaves, it's freedom from exploitation and oppression. Same goes for democracy - one person one vote - not one dollar one vote.

Demand freedom and democracy!

[ProfTournesol 956]

I know very well what it means. But you got to ask yourself, freedom for who to do what? Freedom in this case is not the freedom of the owners to exploit their wage-slaves, it's freedom from exploitation and oppression. Same goes for democracy - one person one vote - not one dollar one vote.

Demand freedom and democracy!

Here we go again :rolleyes: I'm feeling sad for you my bad, such shortsighted vision of the world.

[ACPL Jon 68]

Tournesol, You can't say much more then just being a troll, don't Ya?

Cut it or use real arguments, not assholism.

[Spokesperson 0]

Tournesol, I hope you enjoy giving away money to your owners and handing over all decisions about society and life to them. After all, what does that matter to you, when you can watch TV?

Edited September 28, 2011 by Spokesperson

[Beagle 684]

Tournesol, I hope you enjoy giving away money to your owners and handing over all decisions about society and life to them. After all, what does that matter to you, when you can watch TV?

The "masses" are not controlled by TV anymore, today the internet is used for deep reaching propaganda instead... TV is only for stupid distracting shows showing a "reality" that never existed.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Tournesol, You can't say much more then just being a troll, don't Ya?

You know what you're talking about, aren't you :)

Cut it or use real arguments, not assholism.

Read other Mister chavez/Spokesperson posts and the light will come.

[RavoC 10]

Good luck over there, you do or don't believe in democracy, but mostly democracy doesn't believe in it's own people nowadays so make up your mind..:o

[Minutemen 10]

People are struggling for democracy and freedom on the streets of NYC,

No! They reclaim their Republic and their property back!

Democracy has nothing to do with freedom. Democracy is the rule of the majority over a minority of 49%. Its the first step to communism, and Marx knewd that when he first published his "Neue Rheinische Zeitung" the "Organ for Democracy". Lenin said "Democracy is indispensable to socialism.". Why? Because if people could vote over "Lets take the property of the "rich" people which names starts with the Letter "F", they would vote Yes! Thats not the principal america was foundet on, the founders hated the democracy and knewd it would lead to this. Look at europe, their electet leaders take all their taxmoney away to the banks and do everything they can do to destroy the middle class.

Democracy is the opposite of freedome, because it let the people infighting with each other. Under this circumstances, its impossible to gain personal freedom.

Tournesol, I hope you enjoy giving away money to your owners and handing over all decisions about society and life to them.

You mean like you give it away to a political commissar?

Man, this guy is hilarious. :D

[Tonci87 163]

I know very well what it means. But you got to ask yourself, freedom for who to do what? Freedom in this case is not the freedom of the owners to exploit their wage-slaves, it's freedom from exploitation and oppression. Same goes for democracy - one person one vote - not one dollar one vote.

Demand freedom and democracy!

Well you are right about the fact that our System isn´t really fair, but you also have to admit that each try at communism was a total fail. Should I name a few? Soviet Union, DDR, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, China (in the past, they don´t realy have communism any more), Yugoslawia. Please understand that communism might sound like a nice idea, but it will never work. Why? Because of human nature, especially greed!

Our current system might not be perfect, but it is the best we have.

[solidsnake2384 10]

From looking at Spokesperson's avatar I think that's what he wants.

[st_dux 26]

Absolute equality is an unnatural, unattainable goal. Exploitation is the essence of life: All life exists and thrives by exploiting other life.

[Spokesperson 0]

No! They reclaim their Republic and their property back!

Democracy has nothing to do with freedom. Democracy is the rule of the majority over a minority of 49%. Its the first step to communism, and Marx knewd that when he first published his "Neue Rheinische Zeitung" the "Organ for Democracy". Lenin said "Democracy is indispensable to socialism.". Why? Because if people could vote over "Lets take the property of the "rich" people which names starts with the Letter "F", they would vote Yes! Thats not the principal america was foundet on, the founders hated the democracy and knewd it would lead to this. Look at europe, their electet leaders take all their taxmoney away to the banks and do everything they can do to destroy the middle class.

Democracy is the opposite of freedome, because it let the people infighting with each other. Under this circumstances, its impossible to gain personal freedom.

You mean like you give it away to a political commissar?

Man, this guy is hilarious. :D

Democracy is a way to protect freedom. People are not going to vote to take over other people's hard earned property, because they work hard themselves.

The current situation is to the contrary of what you say. A minority steals from a majority. Or do you think profits grow on trees without people working? How come people who don't work, but who own earn the most? Taxes are nothing in comparison to the % the owners take from you. Where do you think the share holder money comes from? They pay you less than what your labor is worth. And if you want to claim what's your due they just ultimately let their tanks roll as theft is legal and thus protected by government forces. But first they'll just attempt to fire you and replace you with some unemployed bum who doesn't complain because he has to provide for his family.

Technology has improved, production has increased, but the real wages have been constant for decades. How does that compute? Where is the money ending up? You end up borrowing wealth you've created yourself, it's ingenious.

Should I name a few? Soviet Union, DDR, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, China (in the past, they don´t realy have communism any more), Yugoslawia. Please understand that communism might sound like a nice idea, but it will never work. Why? Because of human nature, especially greed!

Our current system might not be perfect, but it is the best we have.

People had better lives under socialism. A huge majority of the Russians prefer the USSR to capitalism. Same goes for Romania and many other people. USSR was never dissolved from below, there was a coup from above, and when people protested in 1993 (biggest protests since the revolution in 1917), the liberals just fetched their army and began shooting people. Elected congressmen were shot, the parliament shelled and burned and up to 2000 people killed. If you prefer that kind of society you must be mad.

Greed? Greed is not the problem, it's the system that encourages it and that is based on it. Because if you don't maximize profits you go bankrupt. "Greed" is what makes socialism the best option. Why pay bankers and owners, when you can work for yourself and society only?

You can't seriously look at how people act in different systems and draw conclusions about "human nature". People are products of their societies and are forced to act according to the principles of them.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Spokesperson

[ProfTournesol 956]

But USSR and satellite states weren't democracies, and freedom was so great that a "wall" was built so that people stay there. And the greed... it was reserved to the leading aparatchik class.

[solidsnake2384 10]

And it must be a blast living in north korea.

[Spokesperson 0]

Of course the USSR wasn't perfect, but at least Cuba is more democratic than any other country in the world, at this moment.

GDR wasn't free for all, that's true, but it was more free for the working people than now. Now its people have to live under occupation, unemployed in cities that wither away. No wonder why ex-SED is one of the biggest parties.

[st_dux 26]

Democracy is a way to protect freedom. People are not going to vote to take over other people's hard earned property, because they work hard themselves.

Lol. People already vote to take over other people's "hard-earned property."

They pay you less than what your labor is worth.

"Worth" is a product of the market. It has no meaning outside of the context in which two parties agree on a set price. By agreeing to take a job for a certain wage, you are, by definition, being paid for your labor exactly what it is worth. Any other conception of worth is purely arbitrary and therefore meaningless.

Technology has improved, production has increased, but the real wages have been constant for decades. How does that compute? Where is the money ending up? You end up borrowing wealth you've created yourself, it's ingenious.

The purchasing power of the average person is orders of magnitude higher today than it was 100 years ago, and that's what actually matters. Money itself is worthless; it's the stuff you can buy with it that gives money its value, and in that sense, real wages have been steadily increasing for decades. This may be changing soon, but not for the reasons you envision.

You can't seriously look at how people act in different systems and draw conclusions about "human nature". People are products of their societies and are forced to act according to the principles of them.

Society itself is a product of human nature. People are naturally self-interested and "greedy." Animals and plants are, too. All life is because that's what life is. Call it greed, call it exploitation, call it the will to power. Whatever you choose to call it, you aren't going to stop it and you aren't going to change it.

[Spokesperson 0]

And it must be a blast living in north korea.

It seems so. But everything that you read in South Korean news must be true, especially if it comes from Pentagon! You seem to trust news when it comes to that kind of political propaganda, but would you trust FOX too? Do you go to the enemies of someone to get a good picture about that person?

---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 PM ----------

"Worth" is a product of the market. It has no meaning outside of the context in which two parties agree on a set price. By agreeing to take a job for a certain wage, you are, by definition, being paid for your labor exactly what it is worth. Any other conception of worth is purely arbitrary and therefore meaningless.

That's bullshit because there are no voluntary agreements between parties where one party depends on the other. Either you work for someone, at any conditions he seems fit, or you starve to death. Worth is the labor you put in into products to increase their value. You make sticks of wood into a chair. You produce ten chairs, but only get a couple in return. That isn't the worth of your labor, that is your wage. The worth of your labor are the full ten chairs minus the worth of the sticks.

Society itself is a product of human nature. People are naturally self-interested and "greedy." Animals and plants are, too. All life is because that's what life is. Call it greed, call it exploitation, call it the will to power. Whatever you choose to call it, you aren't going to stop it and you aren't going to change it.

Slavery, feudalism, capitalism and socialism have nothing to do with human nature. They arise independently depending on the technologies present, and these technologies force structures in societies. Mass production creates one form of society, while feudal agriculture shapes another. It has nothing to do with greed. Self interest is precisely why socialism is the best option for people who actually work. Capitalism is based on the majority working for a layer of parasites who own all the means of production and are protected by police. Socialism is the opposite. The police protects the working class against people who want to enslave the rest and make themselves owners.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Of course the USSR wasn't perfect, but at least Cuba is more democratic than any other country in the world, at this moment.

Not perfect ? I went there in 1985, i was 15 and travelled in Moscow with my father. All i saw was empty shops (butcher's shops were called "cloakrooms") with unbelievably long waiting queues, the only well-stocked shops were reserved to party members (so democratic...), people were starving and didn't believe the pictures from French fruits and vegetables markets i showed them, they weren't free to say what they really thought because of the political police being everywhere...

[Beagle 684]

And it must be a blast living in north korea.

I know a lot of people that actually lived in DDR long enough to still know it, and a lot of them say it was not THAT bad in fact it had it's benefits that are really missed now...the actual situation in united germany is worse compared to the days in the GDR for a whole lot of people since reunification in 1990....and don't forget...DDR (GDR) called itself "german democratic republic" while the "federal republic of germany" does not carry democratic in its name. Just because you name work slavery freedom and totalitasrism democracy does neither of them make when they supposed to be by the name.

[Spokesperson 0]

There are empty shops, queues in market economies as well. The difference is that people have no jobs, no homes, and can't afford to buy what's in them. Despite the economic problems in the 80ies most people prefer socialism to capitalism in the USSR. Sure if you ask oligarchs like Putin, or others they will have different opinions, but do you share their multi-billion interests?

[Beagle 684]

The real pitty for me personally is that all aroudn the world there are no real liberal parties to vote for...only neo market liberals....but no party seems to exist that stands for freedom at all...all we see is more regulation every day...and that not only USA...that's the whole world. Totalitarism is creeping back up, slowly but unstoppable...and it favors the people that hold the system intact...it has enough "soldiers" to keep it all as it is. the prefixes "Socialist", "Democratic", "Federal" are exchangable you can find them for all kind of systems of totalitarism.

Sometimes I really think we could have Kings and Emperors back and nothing would change at all

Edited September 28, 2011 by Beagle

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Spokesperson, if you are actually trying to say North Korea isn't as bad as what the media says, please pull your head out of your ass. I've talked to people who made it out of North Korea. What they were willing to talk about, what they described, was a living hell.

[nettrucker 142]

We are becoming police states all over the world . . . watch this

eU9Dx0x9h4A

I've seen tons of documentaries from all over the world showing the same thing. Police who are arresting people who are protesting peacefully.

Watch "into the fire" The Toronto G 20 summit. It is happening all around us. Social unrest is a sign that people are waking up, more and more, to what is happening worldwide and every Government is ready to smash every sign of opposition. We lost our freedom and Liberty. There is no such kind of thing. Maybe there's never been.

I personally believe that there is no possibility for a peacful powershift to take place. The current power structure of our world will not hesitate to kill you if you oppose their plans and if we don't fight back it will be too late.

Things are worsening all over the world you can find evidence everywhere on the net and the worst is still to come.

Most people have difficulties to accept that their own Government is their worst enemy. As long as you can't accept this concept you will never really wake up. I'm European and the whole EU is run by a bunch of incompetent people and there's no hope here that our polticians really care about the people. The world is turning back to fascism hidden behind a false Denocracy.

Our politicians are and will remain stupid!!!!!!!!!:mad: