"Tab" targeting issues

[max power 21]

I'm not a longbow expert,but i'm sure that in this case the longbow will lock on friendly units ... unless you want to convince me that ArmA's super-mega-ultra-ouch-aie-ow-high blufor have transmitters on them that prevent that.

And ,ofcourse, this can't justify TAB,we need a system that allows the pilot to lock through his helmet using right click on hitboxes.

I guess that the friendly fire thing would probably have something to do with the CLASSIFYING of targets.

It is an IMAGING radar. It can see what it's looking at. Probably, the pilot can, too. Even if he can't, that's what IFF sets are for.

Are you really not reading anything that I, or DM, ot [FRL]Myke, or anyone else have to say?

That said, I think that it would make for a better game if played in an organized group if you could lock on to all unidentified targets and you had to make the decision whether or not you were going to put a missile on that target.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Max Power

[.kju 3245]

Feature #21591: Per mission config space modification

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/21591

Feature #13218: Add cursor to driver/pilot view in vehicles like in OFP to ease commanding the gunner or troops

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/13218

The CIT has many many other useful suggestion to improve both playability and realism of the game.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

My suggestion for tanks i known to everyone : Apply T55's model to all tanks :) ,and TAB problem will be solved.

[.kju 3245]

Qazdar do you ever check back on your own tickets? :)

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27929#note-4

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Oh ! that ticket is still alive ?

I thought it was deleted,because someone and his friends voted it down in less than 1 day :D

Well then,i think that it's a suggestion that needs to be taken into consideration especially, when it comes to locking on "Unknown" targets.

[.kju 3245]

Unknown targets, if they would "work", would be useful yes. Right now they add almost nothing to the actual situation.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

But,when you still can lock far ennemies without seeing them under "unknown" tag.

[Die neunte Seele 10]

1. It would break commanding the AI.

You cannot tell AI to attack a specific unit anymore, right. This could be fixed by changing

"2. disabling the 2-lock and hiding the 2-target list"

to

"2. disabling the 2-lock for humans and AI in a human players vehicle and anonymising the 2-target list to only show the words "men, vehicle, tank, aircraft, static, boat"

but even not fixing this wouldn't be a problem ingame since the 2-target list doesn't get used ingame(in warfare and pvp) exept for the purposes we want to ban. Remotly controlled AI's behaviour can be selected so they attack any enemy automatically or even chease fire. Movement commands do the rest.

I tend to think implementing this as a "PVP mode" based on the "pro" difficulity level as a fifth level would be better then to overwrite veteran/pro levels.

2.It would not reflect the capabilities of a Longbow Apache or any other vehicle with that kind of guidance/detection system.

Right. We would change it from one bad simulation to another.

Still, i don't get whats up with the Apache sidetopic here. It's like comparing the plastic bag on the road to the deforestation of the rainforest. In your eyes, banning tab would make the game less realistic. But the question coming up here is: Is physical realism untouchable? Or is it acceptable to loose a minimum of physial realsim to achieve a big step in gameplay realsim? Are they worth the same? Realsim is what Arma is based on. It's its attraction. I don't think banning tab would reduce the physical realsim since none of both solutions reflects reality. But are the benefits questionable? Not really, are they?

Edited February 29, 2012 by Die neunte Seele

[enforcer1975 0]

If you want a none tab solution BIS has to programm it. It could be like in Jane's Longbow where you have a radar screen on your MFD and move a targeting cross over the target and select lock. First of course they have to make the MFDs usable in ArmA which i don't think they will ever do or can do or want to do any time. Maybe the engine has it's limits even if it is very versatile...

The current radar solution with the dots on the top edge of the screen is not worthy to be in ArmA imo.

[Die neunte Seele 10]

I don't see any need for new features like MFD to fix the tab problem. This might lead to dreaming about your favourite arma feature, but the changes needed to fix tab are not that big steps and i don't want them to be some unduly lot of work to be realised. For those of you who like tab: Please remember we want the changes as a mode, which isn't really likely to be used outside PVP gameplay. You could still support the part of the arma community which needs them for an (more) enjoyable game.

[.kju 3245]

As noted multiple times - this is the A2/OA suggestion forum.

Complex redesign are something for A3 - reasonable tweaks within the means already possible is what this is about.

The goal at this point would not be to remove TAB locking completely.

Instead to leave it to those where meaningful and somewhat realistic and drop it for the rest.

In addition there are various ways to tweak different aspects to make it both more playable and realistic (in the outcome at least).

Also please stop telling the untrue story it would break playing with AI/SP. Please stop your foul propaganda.

Do yourself a favor and try it first yourself, before making up stories.

You can still assign targets as group leader or vehicle commander by different means even without TAB lock.

Like RMB (reveal or lock) click onto a target, or select the unit(s) (F keys/select all) and use the command cursor.

Albeit limit in usefulness, even the targets (2-x) radio menu can be used if necessary.

Finally most can be done optional or to be linked by difficulty options. The default difficulty is Regular anyway.

And in SP you can do whatever you want. Even more in SP you can use whatever addons you want to revert tweaks again,

if you really cannot live without a given aspect.

[Die neunte Seele 10]

We seem to have some different imaginings here, pvpscene. I cannot imagine how some realistic gameplay could develop with any tab'ing vehicle ingame. Which vehicles would you let use tab and how do you explain that this would not fuck up the gameplay again?

[NoRailgunner 0]

If the player has to command the AI he needs to have a feature that is somewhat comparable to human commanding and as fast as spoken command. "TAB" is imo a workaround that works without having the player to fumble with too many keys/selectable objects, its quick and directly forcing AI to aim at a certain target or to move to a certain point. Maybe its possible to develop and add a feature extra for A2OA pvp gameplay so glorious pvp players won't be able to cheat or abuse stuff that works somehow for the dirty rest? ;)

[.kju 3245]

It seems you are playing with super humans beyond even AI skills - can you please tell us their names. I'd love to recruit them for our team!

To be realistic again - I thought I have witnessed the best pilots, tankers, crews and teams in my past 10 year experience playing OFP and Arma competitively at the highest level in many national and international leagues and tournaments, with some of the best of these players in my teams - according to the judgement of the top teams around. But you want to tell us, the regular two-three human crew, or even the elite, can instantly pinpoint targets?

Switching between targets instantly, identified friend from foe without a blink, beyond viewdistance, in 1st person view. You don't believe this yourself, do you?

And yes I believe using the said options is viable, as I played like this for years (OFP/WGL/OAC/CAA1) SP/campaigns and even countless COOP games with multiple human crews.

But who am I to talk about actual gameplay or playing..

@Die neunte Seele

You are right, but with the fanatics around here, I can only see a decent compromise to get realized.

Check this: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?128475-A-workable-compromise-for-the-locking-issue-input-needed

Edited February 29, 2012 by .kju [PvPscene]

[NoRailgunner 0]

Ups, sorry PvPscene to step on your feet but maybe re-read and rethink a bit more before you activate your fantastic pvp killstrike combo. And don't forget to watch+understand the ;) Now is there a proper "AI-to-human" and "human-to-AI" communication and command somewhere? Or will we get over it with a believable workaround (with and without AI) that does include military advantages and disadvantages of A2OA time? Or should we ask BIS to make + force players into "fanatic SP", "fanatic Coop" and "fanatic PvP" gamemodes?? For Christs sake...

[Die neunte Seele 10]

@Die neunte Seele

You are right, but with the fanatics around here, I can only see a decent compromise to get realized.

Check this: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?128475-A-workable-compromise-for-the-locking-issue-input-needed

I'm sorry, but this "compromise" isn't worth one word to fight for. It is impossible to end the tab-wars when weapons like metis/javlin or any aircraft keep this abitility. We cannot achieve anything for gameplay this way. I invite you you play on one of the pubic Warfare servers like XR-DAO or WASP for multiple rounds. Drive your Tank pressing tab twice every second. Sit in your chopper and shoot missles at helpless targets you never saw from 6km away. Try to leave your base with a vehicle when there is a Metis-spammer you can't see on a mountain 3km away. Buy a tank and see it getting bombed to dust even before you can enter it. Get on a hill, take your at weap and suddelndly know about everything your enemy is doing in about 15km² around you. No chance to hide. Ping-pong tab-wars can never be banned with tabing aircraft or AT.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

P.S

@PvPscene

I really want you to play there,you will recruit masses of good players too :D

It has nothing to do with Domination and other mods players ...

I'm sure if you play there for some while,you will get out asking for only 1st person and no TAB targetting and a lot of armaverse thigs that are "beautifully" exploited by players.

Edited February 29, 2012 by On_Sabbatical

[Tankbuster 1746]

Well this is quite simply a config "bug". The iron bombs have irLock and laserLock set to true, when it should be false.

Is it really this simple?

[dm 9]

Is it really this simple?

Dont forget the rest of the quote:

On top of that the maneuvrability is set too high (allowing for such off-boresight engagements). This may or may not be a design decision to make up for the lack of FCS feedback to the pilot.

But yes, for iron bombs (Mk82 etc) locking onto targets, this is the cause.

[Tankbuster 1746]

Apologies. I didn't intend to catch you out by partial quoting. :)

[On_Sabbatical 11]

bombs have irlocks,because bis doest have a ccip interface on the hud :D,they chose the easiest way :D

[.kju 3245]

@Die neunte Seele

Thanks for the invite - however you should direct that to the realism fanatics and forum-only people here.

It was the German clan community first to realize the abusive power of TAB/direct click locking for tanks in the early days of OFP (a few months after release). HGs (later TG) Beere were the first to perfect this, with many others following suit.

I had the honor to perfect it for choppers shortly after and got branded as cheater as many people didn't (and still don't) understand the sheer simplicity and excessive power of the system.

However I was also the first person to develop an addon to restrict it (NT.pbo - No Targeting), introduced it in WGL (among other improvements), developed and shared many other tweaks to improve the gameplay (PROPER tweaks - now called PvPscene tweaks).

What most people nowadays are no longer aware of that WGL (what ACE is built upon) started as an american clan league (WarGames League).

Those folks there also soon realized the various gameplay issues OFP had and therefore started the MOD to tweak the game for the better.

It was also about expanding the game making use of realism elements - however the core was PvP play and to improve gameplay.

While ACE is also no pure COOP or realism MOD, in essence it only became known as such due to some outside-the-team people and realism fanatics made it so.

As said before many gameplay orientated people understood the flaws and weakness in the series early.

However public and league play is essential addon free - therefore mission designers tried to sort the issues by means of scripting,

certain vehicles and weapons provided and others not utilized, putting misc objects like wrecks to make locking harder and many other ways.

Tank shelling was the key issue for the CTI pubilc and tournament community already back in the day.

However with the long wait for A1 and its extremely poor quality at release large parts of the PvP community left the scene altogether

and therefore the experience, insights and modding capabilities got lost.

Unfortunately the brand arma never recovered from that blow and, except for some bright spots like Warfare, AAS and PR:A2 - that brought

back some numbers and talent again, the pvpscene has been in shambles every since.

We will have to see if A3 can generate interest again from PvP folks of PR, RO, BF and similar games.

Anyway sorry for telling an seemingly unrelated old mans story..

The said suggestion would not solve everything, yet again one can only work within the limits possible.

As noted before one can remove radar capabilities for given vehicles or their vehicle position even,

one can also make vehicles not "emit" a radar signature altogether or an always white one to allow only direct click locking.

For more check the PROPER and PvPscene tweaks.

One could do this all even optionally and via difficulty settings, but the fanatics want to see the game remain pure..

Because their way is the only way.. fuck off the rest as long as they can have it their way.

Anyway I am done for today.

@ Qazdar

Locking is NOT a skill (to be proud off) - here is our view of skill in case you want to learn a bit: Teamplay, Tactics & Communication

Edited March 4, 2012 by .kju [PvPscene]

[On_Sabbatical 11]

@PvPscene

I was talking about things like shooting helicopters andn even planes with AT4 s :D.

[dm 9]

One could do this all even optionally and via difficulty settings, but the fanatics want to see the game remain pure..

Because their way is the only way.. fuck off the rest as long as they can have it their way.

No need for the excessive hyperbole... Both sides can be accused of extremism...

[DementedFool117 10]

I've ALWAYS wanted to have a more realistic targeting system; I dont know if any of you have watched some of those "Hellfire vs Insurgent"-like Videos, but I think some sort of "manual lock on" would be neat; you know, target ANYTHING, even a flat piece of terrain, and hit it with a missile;

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the TAB-thing either, but it is neat when you are not the one getting hit, but are the one shooting an AI/Player plane from 6km away.

Targetting systems are very hard to realize in a game that includes sooo many different ways of fighting, also, I think having an AI Gunner pretty much makes a more complicated targeting system useless, since its either that A) You (or your gunner that is) wont target ANYTHING because the AI's are stupid enough already, how are they supposed to operate a targeting system, my AI won't even hardly shoot their Rifles, and hit something! Or B) the AI gunner gets uber-accurate, and will target even MORE things even FASTER, which would require complicated scripts/variables to determine WHEN to SHOOT at WHAT.

Esp. in the A-10 or SU25 I'd loved to see a targeting system like the Su-25 Shkval or the optical System used by the A-10, so you could actually slew a targetting reticle/device over a target an lock it manually, which would require the player having to "work" to target something.

So basically, it is sadly best the way it is; you would either screw up the AI's and make it more complicated for PvP, or make the AI godlike when using a more accurate and complicated system.

Verrrrrrry complicated topic, that targeting stuff.