Improvements to third person view?

[dmarkwick 261]

As infantry - it's cheat. Period. Here is more than enough arguments why is it cheat.

And more than enough arguments why it's not.

And this time I'll think twice, buy the Arma 3, or not, if there will be old controls system, tab lock, no get in anims and 3rd view for infantry in MP. I don't have so much money to spend them for unfinished product

Please, not the old "add/remove [personal bugbear] or I won't buy it" routine. Its already an option, and threatening to not buy it unless an option is removed is just ridiculous. You've already shown your scorn for normal players so you ought to be searching out the realism servers anyway, the ones filled with people who already play like you do.

[PuFu 4600]

Of course. Maybe I you suggest me to buy the Bohemia Studio and explain them, how to make good MP games? Admins can disable it, of course, but 99,99999999999% of servers are staying with enabled 3rd view, because:

1) Admins are noob too;

or

2) Players join to the server, and leave it with phrases like "Oh, there is no cheats 3rd view, I gonna leave". And don't tell me this means that people wants 3rd view and will not buy Arma without it. Yes, fatal noobs will not, but more real players - will buy. I know customer's psychology well.

Military simulator with arcade things for children like TAB lock and 3rd view for infantry. Arma with them is MORE arcade, then CS, COD and BF. Rediculous.

You know what they say, if you want something done right, you need to get your hands dirty. In this case, my suggestion stands, especially when you think all admins are noobs while i think everyone is entitled to admin their paid servers exactly as they like.

[woore 10]

And more than enough arguments why it's not

Demagogy - yes. Arguments - not.

Player just like to play with 3rd view? Of course, most of cheaters like to play with cheats, don't they? 3rd view is disbalancing the game. Costumes in Crysis are balanced. #rd view in Arma - not

So everyone is either a noob or a "real player"

Indeed

Gone is the sentiment that perhaps more people like 3rd person than don't?

More people like have a gauss minigun in Crysis and Arma, than don't. But why don't Cryteck developers add it? (BIS can, I beliive in them)

Please, not the old "add/remove [personal bugbear] or I won't buy it" routine.

Remove my personal bugbear or I won't buy it. I have a right to buy or not anything, and criticize it. Also I have a right to demand from seller inprovements I want.

Its already an option, and threatening to not buy it unless an option is removed is just ridiculous

In practice - this is not enough. Put some efforts to read my post above about servers. I don't want to repeat that again and again.

You know what they say, if you want something done right, you need to get your hands dirty. In this case, my suggestion stands, especially when you think all admins are noobs while i think everyone is entitled to admin their paid servers exactly as they like.

Demagogy. I didn't say that all admins are noobs.

Then players are forced to play with 3rd view. I'm paying for Arma not to buy my own server. And I'm getting my hands dirty by my way

Edited August 9, 2011 by woore

[dmarkwick 261]

Demagogy - yes. Arguments - not.

I see, you simply haven't bothered to read the thread. The arguments exist, unless you're the type to simply dismiss opposing arguments as irrelevant.

Player just like to play with 3rd view? Of course, most of cheaters like to play with cheats, don't they?

So your version of reality is that the server admins are either clueless noobs, or actively like to enable cheats?

I cannot talk for others, but I don't wear a cardboard box over my head IRL. And I don't live my life in one of 3 poses, up, crouched or prone. I can see the benefit of disabling 3rd person, particularly for PvP/TvT games, but I cannot see why the feature should be removed because some people are butt-hurt because it exists.

Remove my personal bugbear or I won't buy it. I have a right to buy or not anything, and criticize it. Also I have a right to demand from seller inprovements I want.

I'll remind you again of the fact that it's already an option. What you're complaining about is servers not set to your liking. You're "threatening" to withhold your purchase because some people play in a way you don't like.

In practice - this is not enough. Put some efforts to read my post above about servers. I don't want to repeat that again and again.

Why not? I find myself correcting for misconceptions over & over again. You obviously haven't done your own share of reading the thread.

Demagogy. I didn't say that all admins are noobs.

Just the ones who have the affrontry to set up their server how they like it?

Then players are forced to play with 3rd view.

Forced? Optional. Only person trying to force others to to comply with their own personal view is you.

I'm paying for Arma not to buy my own server. And I'm getting my hands dirty by my way

That's right, you're paying for ArmA not a server. As such, you already have the power to disable 3rd person. Soon as you pay for a server - you can do that there too. That's how it works.

Removing options for laziness is a poor reason.

Edited August 9, 2011 by DMarkwick

[PuFu 4600]

Then players are forced to play with 3rd view.

No one is forced to do nothing.

I'm paying for Arma not to buy my own server.

Where is the logic here?

And I'm getting my hands dirty by my way

Mind me asking how's that? Besides whining on those forums?

[neokika 62]

I don't like guns, if they are not removed in Arma 3 I won't buy it either. :D

[woore 10]

Demagogy.

Substitution of facts

Substitution of my arguments

Ignoring my arguments

Issuing for the arguments facts, that I'm criticising already

Substitution of reasons of my criticism

Nude matters

Incorrect analogy

Wishful thinking

Provocation to flood

and also:

As such, you already have the power to disable 3rd person. Soon as you pay for a server - you can do that there too. That's how it works.

1)Already disproofed. I forced to use it.

2)And I'm criticising how it works for now.

No one is forced to do nothing.

Where is the logic here?

Mind me asking how's that? Besides whining on those forums?

If I will not use it, I'll be in worst position than the others. This is called "forced". If you don't think so - go to fcking Russia and feel how is this logic works. But this isn't a topic already

Logic is that I will better buy Crysis 2, in which I don't need to buy my own server to prevent cheating.

Question is "cheat it or not", not "Wish I or not". And my answer - it's cheat, logically prooved above

Watch your words. I'm not whining. I'm criticize. And this forum created for criticize, suggestions and feedback, not for praise only. And yes, this is my way to get my hands dirty

I don't like guns, if they are not removed in Arma 3 I won't buy it either. :D

Demagogy: Incorrect analogy

I'm not talking about "like". Arma is military simulator, it's impossible to simulate real war without guns(C.O.).

But anyway it's your decision, to buy smt or not

Edited August 9, 2011 by woore

[Zipper5 74]

Logic is that I will better buy Crysis 2, in which I don't need to buy my own server to prevent cheating.

That's a pretty bad example to use as Crysis 2 has a more serious cheating problem and less being done about it than we have here.

[woore 10]

Yes. But at least cheats are not legalized there

[gossamersolid 155]

Please don't buy the game then, I'd rather not have to ever play with a whiner like you.

If you don't like 3rd person, find a server that has it disabled or setup your own server. Don't like the options I just provided to you? Well tough shit!

I personally love 3rd person view, but I never aim a weapon with it because there's no point. Each view has it's own purposes.

[woore 10]

And I will not. Do the direct offences allowed on this forum?

GossamerSolid, let me illustrate your logic: if you don't want to play with me, find a server where I don't play.

If you don't like 3rd person, find a server that has it disabled or setup your own server

Refuted earlier. Read my above posts

I personally love 3rd person view, but I never aim a weapon with it because there's no point. Each view has it's own purposes.

Am I writing on Arabic? Ok, if this "argument" is so popular, I'll repeat:

doesn't matter for what you are using 3rd view and I know that soldiers are looks better with from 3rd person. But it's a cheat, because it allows you to watch above roofs, walls etc.

Any questions?

Edited August 9, 2011 by woore

[dmarkwick 261]

Ignoring my arguments

No I didn't ignore any arguments and in fact agree with them. It's just that I don't agree with the solution of removing the OPTION.

And, you have an incorrect understanding of what a cheat is.

[vinc3nt 10]

Infantry wise, the only reason I use 3rd person is because of the low FOV in 1st person really annoys me. It is present in many FPS games including ArmA 2 and usually is disorientating when looking at different places quickly.

I am aware that you can change the FOV; but scope measurements (where you can estimate distances of people using etched symbols in scopes), and some parts of the UI are off balance and incorrect when the FOV is changed.

Vehicles...well.... I am just not good enough to efficiently use some vehicles (mostly tanks) without 3rd person this is partly due to the lack of interior designs of tanks (so all I am left with is a zoomed front view with a letterbox overlay).

Summary: Allow 1st person FOV to be adjustable with no consequences and the need for enhanced 3rd person views for infantry should decrease (at least for me anyway)

[Nightrain 10]

I agree with Vinc3nt. I rarely use it as infantry unless I'm behind an object that is to tall to see over while crouched or exposes me two much while standing. I really only use it in Helicopters, as i have trouble flying them. Planes/vehicles are a little easier for me to use so I only use 3rd person while driving somewhere to just look around and admire the game.

I see no reason why to disable it completely, especially for those of us who play mostly sp.

[gossamersolid 155]

Am I writing on Arabic? Ok, if this "argument" is so popular, I'll repeat:

doesn't matter for what you are using 3rd view and I know that soldiers are looks better with from 3rd person. But it's a cheat, because it allows you to watch above roofs, walls etc.

Any questions?

And I'll repeat what over 9000 people have said, you must be unaware of what a cheat is. 3rd person view is not a cheat.

I also don't care if you have "refuted" the argument of getting your own server. If you don't like the way that we have all configured the servers in which WE pay for, tough!

[PeterBitt 10]

... I was going to suggest that 3rd person is disabled by default, but not removed, ...

as its unfortunately quite sure that BIS will not remove 3rd (with the hope to please some of the casual gamers) i think that having it off by default is something they should seriously consider.

remove it cadett mode, only enable it for rookie mode and i think we would see much less players using it.

because that is just what 3rd person is - a rookie feature for unexperienced players to learn to fight against AI.

iam quite sure that iam not the only one who can handle the AI opponents in 1st person ... ok sometimes they see me through the grass, but shouldnt BIS rather fix AI vision than giving the players a cheat to conter it?

peripheral vision? guys, we have TRACKIR in this game! dont be lazy and move your head (or mouse) a little bit and you will have just as good situational awareness as in real life!

did you miss the "so much important" 3rd person in the battlefield games? did you never had situational awareness and never saw the enemies that owned you? here is my tip for you: dont play shooters.

[gossamersolid 155]

as its unfortunately quite sure that BIS will not remove 3rd (with the hope to please some of the casual gamers) i think that having it off by default is something they should seriously consider.

remove it cadett mode, only enable it for rookie mode and i think we would see much less players using it.

because that is just what 3rd person is - a rookie feature for unexperienced players to learn to fight against AI.

iam quite sure that iam not the only one who can handle the AI opponents in 1st person ... ok sometimes they see me through the grass, but shouldnt BIS rather fix AI vision than giving the players a cheat to conter it?

peripheral vision? guys, we have TRACKIR in this game! dont be lazy and move your head (or mouse) a little bit and you will have just as good situational awareness as in real life!

did you miss the "so much important" 3rd person in the battlefield games? did you never had situational awareness and never saw the enemies that owned you? here is my tip for you: dont play shooters.

No, it should be left on by default. There's the option right now to turn it off, if people can't be bothered to figure that out, it's their problem.

Not all of us want or can afford TrackIR, so that's a moot point.

[woore 10]

No I didn't ignore any arguments and in fact agree with them. It's just that I don't agree with the solution of removing the OPTION.

And, you have an incorrect understanding of what a cheat is.

An example

I'll remind you again of the fact that it's already an option. What you're complaining about is servers not set to your liking. You're "threatening" to withhold your purchase because some people play in a way you don't like.

You've used as argument the statement which had been refuted already, I'd explained WHY I'm not satisfied by this solution. Just simple logic)

Gossammer, if you don't care about did someone refute smt or not - DON'T ARGUE. "I don't care" principle is illustrated too by Russia, and illustrated very well.

Yes, 3rd view isn't a cheat, because it's legalized. Let's call it 3rd view. But 3rd view is still allows you to look above walls. Point of argue hasn't been changed.

Peripheral vision is already simulated in Arma, RTFM.

Edited August 9, 2011 by woore

[dmarkwick 261]

Refuted earlier. Read my above posts

I also don't think you understand what refuted means.

Am I writing on Arabic? Ok, if this "argument" is so popular, I'll repeat:

doesn't matter for what you are using 3rd view and I know that soldiers are looks better with from 3rd person. But it's a cheat, because it allows you to watch above roofs, walls etc.

Any questions?

Because you either didn't read the thread or are otherwise ignoring arguments I'll post a few of my own:

I use it because I like the sense of awareness that playing through a monitor removes. I mostly play in 1st person, but if I'm prone behind a wall with a tank looking for me, I use thrird person because IMO IRL I would have more awareness as to the position of the tank.

Soon as there's a peep feature, where I can quickly peek, or *slightly* raise my head, or any number of fine movements that allows me to see over & around stuff, then, maybe, I'll switch 3rd person off. Or maybe I won't :)

Like I said, as soon as I can peek without getting up onto my knees/standing up/lollipopping my position away, then maybe it'd be a fair comment.

Peeking carefully around broken brick segments & through cracks, vegetation & any number of other ways to grab a peek cannot be done in ArmA yet. It replaces situational awarenesses that playing through a monitor removes.

I have ACKNOWLEDGED and AGREE with your arguments. I fully understand how gameplay can be affected by the removal of 3rd person, and I FULLY APPROVE. I don't agree with the removal of the OPTION of 3rd person though. Simple as that.

You're arguing to take away realism in the form of situational awareness, and I cannot condone such arcadey changes.

Edited August 9, 2011 by DMarkwick

[gossamersolid 155]

You can't just "refute" arguments with a snap of your finger and keep restating your same arguments.

You are terrible at arguments.

[PeterBitt 10]

...

Not all of us want or can afford TrackIR, so that's a moot point.

read:

dont be lazy and move your head (or mouse) a little bit and you will have just as good situational awareness as in real life!

i havent TRACKIR but i use my mouse for it. ive set free headmovement to my spacebar and have my thumb always on it, i use it excessivly and never thought that iam missing any situational awareness - no its even the opposite:

with the feature to move my head independently form my body i have MUCH more situational awareness than in any other ego shooter.

no question that FOV settings would be a awesome feature, but even with the arma 2 FOV you can easily play without 3rd - if you are a average ArmA or FPS player.

[Maio 293]

I think this thread has run its course for now. Maybe a tactical lock is in order :) ?

Until more conclusive DEV info regarding the matter surfaces that is...

[woore 10]

Because you either didn't read the thread or are otherwise ignoring arguments I'll post a few of my own:

1)I use it because I like the sense of awareness that playing through a monitor removes. I mostly play in 1st person, but if I'm prone behind a wall with a tank looking for me, I use thrird person because IMO IRL I would have more awareness as to the position of the tank.

2)Soon as there's a peep feature, where I can quickly peek, or *slightly* raise my head, or any number of fine movements that allows me to see over & around stuff, then, maybe, I'll switch 3rd person off. Or maybe I won't

Like I said, as soon as I can peek without getting up onto my knees/standing up/lollipopping my position away, then maybe it'd be a fair comment.

Peeking carefully around broken brick segments & through cracks, vegetation & any number of other ways to grab a peek cannot be done in ArmA yet. It replaces situational awarenesses that playing through a monitor removes.

1) 3rd view gives to you an EXTRA awareness about position of the tank, and when I say extra, I mean more than IRL, to prevent a new turn of demagogy.

What kind of information do you have IRL in the same situation:

Vision - implemented, with peripheral

Sound of tank - implemented, even with 3D sound

Land vibrating - implemented vith vibrating camera

Smell - not implemented, but you can't smell the tank accurately and before you'll see it or hear it.

Taste - not implemented, but you can't spot a tank by taste (and infantry, vehicles, etc)

2) Sorry, really forget about it. Would be nice to have ability to peek. Ask developers. But 3rd view isn't a solution, make a peek and launch personal UAV are different things.

GossamerSolid, I don't refute smt by a snap of my finger. I refute smt by facts and logical arguments. The only "arguments" I saw from you - "over 9000 men already said" and "I like 3rd view, it must be enabled as default". This is not reasoning, just demagogy, and very unprofessional. I suggest you to read, what means "demagogy".

And start to READ my posts at last. For now 3rd view for vehicles is lesser evil. If we will have working mirrors, triplexes and vehicle interiors - disable 3rd view. AND I WROTE MANY POSTS AGO, WHY THE OPTION OF 3RD VIEW SNOULD BE REMOVED, at least for infantry

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1999708&postcount=45

Edited August 9, 2011 by woore

[dmarkwick 261]

It seems you cannot understand why people simply don't fall in line with your opinion. Your "facts" are not relevant to a game, and your solution seems to be the removal of an option. The solution already exists, but it's not enough that people might choose to allow it. It's your way or no way.

I'm fairly relaxed about all this because I'm pretty positive that the option will NOT be removed. As such I think I'm sort of wasting my time and energy here :D

[woore 10]

Because you're wasting time and energy to demagogy. Why don't my facts aren't relevant to the game?

And I'm pretty positive that the option will not be removed. I'll save my money a bit then)))