Ragdolls = In .... Realistic wounds ???

[-Coulum- 35]

Was wondering...

What do you guys all think realistic bullet impacts would actually look like. right now in movies and games when someone is shot there is tons of blood splatter/mist or dust somehow explodes off them like in saving private ryan - or a combintation of the two. But is this really realistic? I somehow doubt it. I think bullet impacts from small caliber weapons actually wouldn't cause that much immediate splatter. at most a tiny bit of mist from the entrance and a bit more accompanied by some small chunks of ripped flesh on the exit. and even then wouldn't the clothing someone is wearing absorb this mist before it is seen? Of course larger caliber hits would probably cause more of this mist but I just can't imagine how blood can ever squirt out like in most movies or games like call of duty. Then again I personally have no personal experience with this sort of thing.

So my question is what do you guys think or know bullet hits look like immediately upon impact. any hunters or even members of the armed forces/police etc. have anything to share?

And would you guys prefer to have bullet impact portray reality or be more generic (like COD blood effects). I personally think that BI should aim for realism

pink or red mist should be more in head shots. I 've never seen much for blood splatter in shots to any part of a torso or leg because of the cauterization from the heat of the bullet and how our bodies react to sudden injuries.

Interesting. so bullets actually cauterizes some of the flesh?

Edited March 18, 2012 by -Coulum-

[Whirly 1]

Was wondering...

What do you guys all think realistic bullet impacts would actually look like.

I have literally seen hundreds of people shot in the head, it doesnt always produce red mist - for example the infamous footage of General Nguyen Ngoc Loan executing a Vietcong suspect in Saigon, but large calibre rounds often produce red mist, for example the JFK assasination.

[rye1 21]

Dependent on variables for sure. Not all impacts are the same. Splashback and blood particles in the air = mist thereby atmospheric conditions (droplets i.e. after rain) = better chance of.

@antoinefleming :p Red... oxygenated blood mist.

@Chammy wouldn't that mean tracers are better for your health? :cool:

Edited March 19, 2012 by Rye

[BMFer 1]

I have literally seen hundreds of people shot in the head, it doesnt always produce red mist - for example the infamous footage of General Nguyen Ngoc Loan executing a Vietcong suspect in Saigon, but large calibre rounds often produce red mist, for example the JFK assasination.

Your right their are tons of variables that effect whether or not a gunshot wound will mist or spray the biggest being the caliber of the round. If it is a high powered round their wont be much of a head left such as the JFK Assassination:

The headshot happens at 19 seconds in. Very small caliber rounds can leave a tiny hole thats allmost unnoticable on impact but all bullet wounds will bleed after the hit. Edited March 19, 2012 by BMFer

[J-Guid 10]

dont forget simulate realistic blood drops and blood trails on body (drains from the body to the ground), its posible with ENB shaders functions just look on Skyrim mods and shaders features!!! :worship: :worship: :worship:

[bigpickle 0]

Interesting. so bullets actually cauterizes some of the flesh?

Most will around the wound, especially at close range. Also the body produces almost immediate swelling so that added to the effect of body shot not producing a spray effect. A realistic would gluggs if you know what i mean.

[BMFer 1]

Most will around the wound, especially at close range. Also the body produces almost immediate swelling so that added to the effect of body shot not producing a spray effect. A realistic would gluggs if you know what i mean.

If your talking glugging as in what contained liquid does when poured out to fast yes I know what ya mean. :cool:

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah I can believe that wounds "glug". I am guessing this is because air needs to move into the wound as blood leaves the wound but they cannot do it at the same time .so they kind of take turns at it. also, If the wound is near an artery I am guessing the blood would also gush out more with each pump of the heart as well. But I am kind of talking more about immediate blood upon impact. Is there a red mist produced by bullet hits, does blood immediately spray out of a wound like in the movies. From what people here are saying and from the real videos I have seen It looks like upon impact there is actually not that much blood especially in leg, arm, body shots. Neck and head shots seem to produce more of a blood explosion but even these don't seem to occur all the time. It also seems that higher caliber weaponry will cause more blood to spray on impact. So...

I suggest that Bi actually makes there be very little impact blood effects for small arms fire. Occasianally head shots should have a bit of red/pink mist but other wise body shots should have only a very small chance of producing a very small amount of blood.

As the caliber of rounds increase the chance of blood spray and the amount of blood spray concurring should then increase.

ie.

Aks have more chance of producing slightly more blood than m16s.

Fifty cals would cause a fair amount of bloody mist upon headshots and sometimes a very small amount of blood spray from body shots.

Anything bigger would consistently cause a large mist of blood and even more so upon head/neck shots.

This would actually tone down the amount of blood in arma in comparison to A2 and most other games. But I think it would be closer to realism and would also help add some of that "holy shit" moment most people were hoping dismemberment would bring Ie. shoot someone with an m16 100 timees - nothing special. then one lucky headshot and a large mist of blood is produced. "wow that was bloody!".

I think having random/different amounts of blood produced by each shot would be kind of new to gaming and would add alot to immersion. not as much as dismemberment but It would be better than nothing. Of course a few seconds after the shot every wound should start gushing blood, more or less depending on the size and placement of the wound.

Thoughts?

[Whirly 1]

Fifty cals would cause a fair amount of bloody mist upon headshots and sometimes a very small amount of blood spray from body shots.

.50 cal mangles the human body almost beyond recognition, there is definitely going to be a flying mass of human tissue regardless of where a person is hit.

VIDEO REMOVED - EXPLICIT CONTENT

Edited March 21, 2012 by Max Power
explicit video removed

[rye1 21]

@Bigpickle; Reference? Instant inflammation, yes one line of defence. Cauterization - nope. Even if so, you still have a very open entry wound, therefore it really did nothing productive to help the situation. I'd like to read more about this if it's true.

Sorry but just to keep it down to Earth - it depends on the wound (size, shape etc) and anatomical structure hit as you say. Shoot a jar of liquid in different locations, distances and angles with different rounds, you get a different flow and size. Now try it against a human body, hit a vein or artery with different internal pressures, different parts of our anatomical structure which have different internal pressure ratios leads to different flow rate and visual aspect of blood you come across.

Some videos I've seen as reference literally have very little to no wounding capacity i.e. a 9mm, and a very unpredictable wound - little blood or ooze from the wound, a neat little hole. While some, especially in the thoracic regions or facial area with military rifle rounds are insane for wounding. I really couldn't imagine what a .50 could do. But then contradiction again as some do little, a nice hole or a big, bloody and pouring wound, unpredictable in my opinion. It's like saying a knife WILL do this - well no because knifes can be used in all kinds of ways and unique moments that may not allow that to happen.

Depending on heart beat, you are right. Wave-like contraction through the veins, hence why adrenaline is a contradiction until you control bleeding.

Your heart beats faster anyway with less blood - as it tries to compensate for the smaller amount of blood it's trying to get around the body.

The kidneys, brain, heart (coronary mainly) organs need a certain blood supply and pressure (blood pressure) to work properly too. (BIS Human Anatomy and Physiology System, joke)

@Whirly - Yeah well check some other .50 videos. Deer or pig getting shot and just carrying on moving, with different wounds. Over all yes, destruction! Soft tissue everywhere.

[Whirly 1]

Deer or pig getting shot and just carrying on moving, with different wounds.

Deer skin is mighty tough. Pigs skin is notoriously tough, even ticks have a hard time getting through it.

[rye1 21]

Some humans skin is tough.... :p

[Whirly 1]

Some humans skin is tough.... :p

Not tough enough to prevent cavitation, the 50.cal has an incredible amount of kinetic energy.

[Dead3yez 0]

I think dismemberment, and gore overall is great. The satisfaction of seeing your opponent's body parts being severed and exploding is great. But it works both ways and you get that "Oh shit!" factor.

[mr burns 132]

I think dismemberment, and gore overall is great. The satisfaction of seeing your opponent's body parts being severed and exploding is great. But it works both ways and you get that "Oh shit!" factor.

Riight, like yesterday when someone was spectating me getting naded real good in RO2 .. immediately chat-window pops up saying "hahahah"

Not to speak of the satisfaction you get for hitting inf in ro2 with the AT rifle :o

[max power 21]

Whirly

Posting videos of disgusting or explicit material is forbidden on these forums. This is a rule we take very seriously here. I do agree that rabbits are different than people, but I think exploding/mutilating animals still qualifies as disgusting.

+1 warning for explicit content.

§19) Videos/Movies

No Video/movies, either posted or linked to shall contain any of the following.

Porn, real killing, mutilations, wounds, carnage, and other disgusting/explicit footage. If something offensive is being shown in cartoon form it shall be treated as if the imagery were real and not simply cartoon. This also includes team killing or anything glorifying deliberate and or anti-social behaviour on any Public or Private server.

[-Coulum- 35]

@Whirly

That video (the one that's been removed, showing a dead rabbit shot with a fifty and having a huge chunk ripped of of it) doesn't exactly represent what might happen to an actual living human. After something dies its muscles will become pretty rigid and much less flexible than when they were living. therefore when that dead rabbit was shot the muscle fibres wouldn't be elastic enough to stretch and instead would just rip apart.

That being said I do think there would be a fair amount of flesh/bone fragments exiting a fifty cal wound... just not as much as your video shows.

[PuFu 4600]

Not tough enough to prevent cavitation, the 50.cal has an incredible amount of kinetic energy.

It would be a 'needed" feature if all weapons in A3 would shoot .50 cal bullets....they don't..

I for one would settle with an improved wounding system, one that doesn't use some the same generic texture no matter what sort of injury occurs....

[Whirly 1]

@Whirly

That video (the one that's been removed, showing a dead rabbit shot with a fifty and having a huge chunk ripped of of it) doesn't exactly represent what might happen to an actual living human. After something dies its muscles will become pretty rigid and much less flexible than when they were living. therefore when that dead rabbit was shot the muscle fibres wouldn't be elastic enough to stretch and instead would just rip apart.

That being said I do think there would be a fair amount of flesh/bone fragments exiting a fifty cal wound... just not as much as your video shows.

I need to exercise care on what I post here, so to abide by the forum rules my suggestion to you is to type '50 cal exit wound' into Google image search. I'm sure you will get the basic idea of the horrific damage .50 cal does to human targets.

It would be a 'needed" feature if all weapons in A3 would shoot .50 cal bullets

I agree it's not a needed feature, but for the majority of us here it's a desired feature.

[-Coulum- 35]

I for one would settle with an improved wounding system, one that doesn't use some the same generic texture no matter what sort of injury occurs....

agreed. + make wounds placed in the correct position. don't know how hard this would be but I've seen it in very old games so I am guessing it wouldn't be hard to have in A3.

Edited March 21, 2012 by -Coulum-

[max power 21]

I have read that the damage a .50 bmg does to a human varies greatly with what it hits on its way through. Gunnery Sargeant Hathcock noted while sniping with a browning M2 that sometimes his targets would get up afterward and continue on and sometimes it would create terrible wounds. It's been a while but IIRC the difference was attributed to whether or not it hit bone or not.

This forum has such discussions all the time and the information presented is never new. I would suggest searching the forums for old discussions if you are actually interested in this kind of ballistic behaviour.

[Whirly 1]

ragdolls are confirmed , so now when a jdam is dropped on a guy he wont just fall over in a pre scripted animation

so it begs the question.

Who here wants accurate representation of the weapon systems effects on the body. (IE when an arty round hits a group of enemies they either dissapear into a red mist , or they fly into peices.)

I remember watching this mod years ago, obviously the animation is far in excess of what is appropriate to simulate a .50 cal round, but I think something similar would be suitable for simulating a direct hit by a jdam or artillery shell.

cmMZMWqw2IA

[rye1 21]

This kind of ballistic behaviour is known as wound ballistics.

.50 calibre wound ballistics reports, research, are very hard to come by and are normally classified.

You can use points of reference as Max Power stated but you WILL get the two extremes: The most lethal round against a human and a round that takes multiple hits to put a human down over a prolonged time period. Remember BlackHawk down, the SLAP round from a .50 cal hit one Somali 5+ times and he still ran then stumbled behind a tree and slowly bled to death.

Effect depends on lots of variables to the point where you'll have multiple extremes, and contradictions, of what the bullet 'should' do. But to say the averages, it yaws around ~8inch and can lead to an exit hole of an inch, bleeding like a bitch, I'd personally say you're pretty much f*cked without urgent medical action.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/50blka.jpg

@Pufu: Improve by doing what?

[PuFu 4600]

@Pufu: Improve by doing what?

There are lots of ways, all imply some "under the hood" changes:

1. blending overlapping different textures - randomness

2. being able to manipulate opacity/alpha channel on the fly = transitions between undamaged and bleeding rather than the current instant pop up of some texture...

3. being able to project decals/textures on 3d geometry using object's XYZ coordinates, and NOT it's UVs = being able to create more realistic wound holes depending on the area where the avatar was hit. It also needs an accurate way to determine hit position. The current damages zones: hands|legs|torso|head is just not enough...

i really don't know what are the RV's limitations here, and what can and what can't be done. But since you can have thermal imaging using a map and be able to notice a gradient change of the heatmap after the engine has been started, i would say that 1 and 2 should be dooable. Not sure about 3 and a more accurate visual representation of wounds.

[max power 21]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/50blka.jpg

So you've got nothing really going on for the first ten whatevers... centimeters or inches or whatever... then the bullet turns and you have a temporary cavity four whatevers in diameter, then the bullet exits. Doesn't look like anything special to me. Even if that is in inches, it's still not very impressive. And, if if is in inches then all that temporary cavitation is happening outside of the back of the average human body in the first place, meaning that such a cavity would never be formed. Maybe if you shot a fat guy, that bullet would cause some bruising to his back fat.