equal damage or effect from damage on east and west tanks

[kotov12345 10]

tried on beta 78888

set 4 east and 4 west tanks and fire to engine and to from gun from m1a2 and from t90.

east tanks always blow up

m1a2s always survive even heavy damaged.So currently there is 2 kind of tank of map - m1a2 and rest.

did video and can post on your tube if you need.

Proposal.

After firing 1 sabot set damage to only part which was damaged.

for example:

Track hit = track damage

engine hit = engine damage

turret hit = turret damage - mean not turning or turning very slow

gun hit = gun down

2nd turret/gun hit = tanks blow

2nd same track/engine hit = driver down

3rd track(s)/engine hit = tank down

the difference between tanks can be for example

t72 blow after 2 body sabots -

t90 after 3 and

m1a2 after 4

effects like smoke after each hit will be good and optional depending on performance issue.

My idea to give ability crew to fix tank after first hit or continue to fight if track was damaged.

video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxVfPnxaWvY

ticketed:

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/18176

Edited March 10, 2011 by kotov12345

[PuFu 4600]

here we go again about things not being exactly the same, mirrored, balanced or whatever you want to call it for the both sides...

1. the armor for any tank in the world, maybe besides the leopard is not up to par with the m1a2 one.

2. russians had one main basic principle regarding their tanks, since ww2: sheer numbers of them.

things you can do about it yourself:

1. balance the sides by using a different ratio between west and east tanks (as it is in real world).

2. create an addon yourself, like a lot of tournaments have done, where the two tanks are exactly and uterly the same in terms of configs ( you will most likely need the mlods as well for this), with a different appearance.

Edited March 10, 2011 by PuFu

[kotov12345 10]

here we go again ....

Not understand m8 what you trying to tell me about :)

it is all about make game a bit more interested.

Lost driver - go back to base get driver.

lost track - call for support.

Lost gun -> retreat.

[Beagle 684]

Not understand m8 what you trying to tell me about :)

it is all about make game a bit more interested.

Lost driver - go back to base get driver.

lost track - call for support.

Lost gun -> retreat.

I don't really see your Problem here, even field repairs are possible now with the introducton of the engineer class...albeit it does not exist for all Factions. USMC, CDF, NAPA, ChDzK and russian have no field engineers with field repair abilty.

[kotov12345 10]

I don't really see your Problem here,

yea - but look video tanks blow from first shot

[Inkompetent 0]

I agree that more realistic tank damage would be nice. The current system is some mix of expected tank toughness and zoned damage that 'bleeds' into other areas.

Essentially the compared toughness between the tanks is about as one can expect though. T-72 terribly weak by modern standards, T-90 fairly tough since it has several armour upgrades, and the M1 a total beast since it is designed as a really heavy, high-quality tank.

Not sure about having the crew fix the tank though. Arcade enough as it is with the supply and repair trucks, but how can the crew fix that mean damage in the field, without large and heavy tools (i.e. repair truck) ?

[Beagle 684]

yea - but look video tanks blow from first shot

This does happen in ArmA II also in lots of cases.

[kotov12345 10]

I suggest keep repair/crew/other aside and post idea regarding damage only.

Not other aspects.BIS not able to change everything at once anyway.Only step by step.

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------

This does happen in ArmA II also in lots of cases.

that's I'm talking about possibility to remove it.

[Beagle 684]

but how can the crew fix that mean damage in the field, without large and heavy tools (i.e. repair truck) ?

They can not. All that is aboard is a few replacement periscopes and maybe a few track links, but for repairing a lost track you need heavy powered tools or another vehicle to tow the track from the road wheels and back up. This is usually a work for hours. So. repair is o.k. but exspect this to take an hour for four men at least to have the tank mobile again. Don't forget to play the repair animation for this full hour for all four crew members plz. Everthing else belongs in the realm of role playing magic healing hands.

[PuFu 4600]

ahhh, now i understand what you are on about (even though reading it again, and even watching the DH video, i would answer just the same):

in principle, the A2 engine works exactly like you have described. You have those 5 main hitpoints for tanks IRC: hull, turret, gun, track, engine PLUS the others which are general for all vehicles: structural, fuel , glass, lights, wheels (where applicable)

But it is all a bit more complicated than that, and afaik, the best solution for it is implemented by KingHomer in ACE atm.

Brief explanation:

1. you got the overall armor (if the the damage inflicted is bigger than the this value, no matter what part is hit is gonna blow up).

2. you got the armor for all those parts (integer number, the smaller the better irc)

3. the material value per parts

4. all those parts are selections in the model. Based on their position as well as the passthrough boolean value you got different results.

What you are looking for in terms of playability is achievable, but needs a lot of fine adjustments to make it work, since there are a lot of config values to work with, as well as model related selections.

Really doubt BIS will ever tweak this values (especially since a lot are model related as well) to have it fixed/better represented

[kotov12345 10]

really miss that ofp config where you have to hit m1a1 gun to kill it easier

[Beagle 684]

really miss that ofp config where you have to hit m1a1 gun to kill it easier

Killing gun is still in but now you actually have to hit the gun, not just the turret front...and the Commander and "Loader" will still fire on you with MGs. This was missing in OFP anmd it was by no means "real" that way. Some wargames have the tendency to teach wrong tactics and ArmA II is one of them since you rarely have a benefit out of employing real life tactics here. Attacking the frotn of a MBT is such a wrong tactic that can have sucess only in BIS games. Edited March 10, 2011 by Beagle

[SGT M 10]

Quite frankly if you want perfectly balanced tanks, go play BFBC2. Arma 2 was never designed to be even. It was designed to be REALISTIC. The M1A2 Abrams, specifically the TUSK and SEPTUSK variants, are the best tank(s) in the world. It can take hits that no other tank can. Arma 2 has designed it this way. In a one on one fight between a M1A2 TUSK and a T90. The result will always be M1A2 WINS!!! Just leave it at that.

[max power 21]

Quite frankly if you want perfectly balanced tanks, go play BFBC2. Arma 2 was never designed to be even. It was designed to be REALISTIC. The M1A2 Abrams, specifically the TUSK and SEPTUSK variants, are the best tank(s) in the world. It can take hits that no other tank can. Arma 2 has designed it this way. In a one on one fight between a M1A2 TUSK and a T90. The result will always be M1A2 WINS!!! Just leave it at that.

No one will ever 'leave it at that', and this post is so begging an answer that it's treading the trolling line.

Regarding the topic, the fact that the t72 and some other tanks explode a lot is actually fairly realistic. In real life they have a tendency to lose their turret (and crew) because of the way the autoloader is situated. Rounds that penetrate the turret can easily cause an ammunition explosion.

[Beagle 684]

Quite frankly if you want perfectly balanced tanks, go play BFBC2. Arma 2 was never designed to be even. It was designed to be REALISTIC. The M1A2 Abrams, specifically the TUSK and SEPTUSK variants, are the best tank(s) in the world. It can take hits that no other tank can. Arma 2 has designed it this way. In a one on one fight between a M1A2 TUSK and a T90. The result will always be M1A2 WINS!!! Just leave it at that.

The M1A2 can not survive hits from Leopard II A7 with L55 gun fired DM63. The A7 is in serial production for years and the german standard MBT now, but I somehow doubt we will see M1A2s invading germany for a while.

But this means it's already possible to defeat the M1A2 and it's only a matter of time until the chinese and russian industrie will catch up and sell weapons that can do it too.

Armour and Penetration always evolve together.

The next point is: the T-90 in ArmA II is supposed to loose.

A old, first series T-90 was choosen without TI without more advanced armour and all the fancy stuff (SHTORA) of late production T-90s.

Tanks must not be made to survive heavy hits to be effective, thats western thinking, but they must have the hitting power to take the opponent out of action and I have no doubt that a T-90M (not in game) can take a modern M1A2 out of action with just one hit and the same first hit probability.

Logistics win tanks battles not tanks themselfs...a heavy 65ton tank will run dry of fuel after 2-3 hours. The maximum action radius of a M1A2 is 150km in good conditions, a Leo II can do 200 but a compact 48ton T-90 can do a 300km combat radius or 600 in a straight direction.

It's not all about firepower, more often its about beeing there at all.

But the while discussion is a bit futile as there is only a T-90 (not even T-90A)

in the game and that one was put in to be inferior, and so it will stay inferior.

The only real solution would be a nice modern russian MBT DLC to have a somwhat equal opponet for the M1A2TUSK.

[Bazul14 10]

You mean a T-80? They are supposedly better than the T90s and T72s since they are from a totally different predecessor.... If so, then there is a mod for it, but I guess it would be nice to have that in vanilla too.:bounce3:

[Inkompetent 0]

You mean a T-80? They are supposedly better than the T90s and T72s since they are from a totally different predecessor.... If so, then there is a mod for it, but I guess it would be nice to have that in vanilla too.:bounce3:

T-80s are the 'heavy' tanks of the Russians - yes. But after Chechenya the Russian military has come to *hate* the T-80s and sworn to 'never ever again gas turbines', prefering their (nowadays as heavily armoured as the T-80) diesel-engine T-90s.

[Beagle 684]

You mean a T-80? They are supposedly better than the T90s and T72s since they are from a totally different predecessor.... If so, then there is a mod for it, but I guess it would be nice to have that in vanilla too.:bounce3:

No I mean a T-90M. The russians consider the T-90M to be more modern and more capable compared to T-80UM so why should I not do the same. Russian doctrine does not make the heavier Tank the better one, that's western doctrine.

Russian tanks are not designed for beeing real counterparts for Abrams and Leos, the russian do not use them the same way. T-90s are not build as spearheads to make the breach, they are there for making the breach a bit wider for the surrounding infantry. Russian doctrien considers MBTs a Infantry support weapons.

Russian doctrine is as infantry oriented as the USMC's one is.

Btw: the initial T-90 was originally designated T-72BU...T-72B"improved"...and thats exacly what we have in ArmA II.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Beagle

[SGT M 10]

Regarding Beagles prior post I would certainly like to see a Leopard A7 in arma 2, maybe as part of UN? Wait is there actually a Leopard mod for arma 2 that I haven't found?

[Beagle 684]

Regarding Beagles prior post I would certainly like to see a Leopard A7 in arma 2, maybe as part of UN? Wait is there actually a Leopard mod for arma 2 that I haven't found?

The main problem with mods is that mods quite often don't really fit the stock ArmA balance creating "terminator units". No I dont know of any A7 mod.

[kotov12345 10]

you all right but really small problem:

game not even close to realism and my idea only to make game better.

It is not about politics or whose tanks better.

It is request to give all tanks in game abit longer life.

Even choppers in game hold 2 sabots shots

Kju rejected ticket - so actually this is not actual anymore. c u

PS Really fun when someone have washed brains.M1A2 can be out of battle with 1 RPG shot.Check documents.

Edited March 11, 2011 by kotov12345

[Ollie1983 10]

Desert Storm illustrated neatly that the soviet era T72 could not touch a standard Abrams and in fact the majority of tanks lost by the US were from friendly fire.

In todays highly updated TUSK version, the M1A2 is in a different league to the T72. Yes granted there is the new T90 but many first hand reports have illustrated in great detail how difficult the M1 is to destroy when the US have been forced to fire at a disabled M1 and put it out of action completely, using another M1.

The things that are sure to kill an M1 cleanly are anti tank missiles, particularly those that are fired from aircraft as they tend to hit the top armour, and also iron bombs or lucky hits from 155mm artillery etc.

The Sabot round is likely to be the mainstay anti tank gun round for many years because it is very difficult to defend against, reactive armour doesn't work on it, ceramic armour is shattered by it, and also there are range and accuracy bonuses with it.

The other real danger is that posed by self forming fragments or explosively formed projectiles, an idea that has been kicking around since WW2.

[max power 21]

Desert Storm illustrated neatly that the soviet era T72 could not touch a standard Abrams and in fact the majority of tanks lost by the US were from friendly fire.

In todays highly updated TUSK version, the M1A2 is in a different league to the T72.

Yeah, and an f-14 could totally smack around a mig-15. What's you're point?

Yes granted there is the new T90 but many first hand reports have illustrated in great detail how difficult the M1 is to destroy when the US have been forced to fire at a disabled M1 and put it out of action completely, using another M1.

There's a difference between destroying a tank so that there is no usable technology left in it, and knocking it out of action. Also, there were accounts of silly shit like an RPG-7 penetrating through the tank and setting the hydraulic fluid on fire, destroying the tank. So way to pick and choose your sources. Which is it? Is the Tank destroyable by a 7 kilogram recoilless weapon designed in the 50s or is it impervious to even the most advanced weapons?

The things that are sure to kill an M1 cleanly are anti tank missiles, particularly those that are fired from aircraft as they tend to hit the top armour, and also iron bombs or lucky hits from 155mm artillery etc.

Lots of stuff can put an abrams out of action, including car bombs.

The Sabot round is likely to be the mainstay anti tank gun round for many years because it is very difficult to defend against, reactive armour doesn't work on it, ceramic armour is shattered by it, and also there are range and accuracy bonuses with it.

Modern russian ERA systems can protect against KE projectiles. The problem with KE projectiles is they lose energy over distance due to drag. Ceramic armour is actually designed to shatter KE projectiles, not the other way around :p

The other real danger is that posed by self forming fragments or explosively formed projectiles, an idea that has been kicking around since WW2.

So between explosively formed projectiles and KE, the two main anti armour technologies (the other far less common one being HESH which is championed by the British almost exclusively), you've identified them as both being a danger to the abrams?

Listen, we've had the conversation before in this forum like a thousand times. If you want to read some interesting arguments on the subject, you should check out the forum search function.

[kotov12345 10]

Desert Storm illustrated neatly that the soviet era T72 could not touch a standard Abrams and in fact the majority of tanks lost by the US were from friendly fire.

is this really looks like war forum or game forum?

on my web page says:

Bohemia Interactive Forums > BI MILITARY GAMES FORUMS > ARMA 2 & Operation Arrowhead > ArmA 2 & OA - SUGGESTIONS

ARMA2 & AO SUGGESTIONS! :)

again who cant read it :

ARMA2 AND AO SUGGESTIONS :)

for who not understand what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about broken game play.

watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9YXHz1G_gE

and next video will be soon.

[PuFu 4600]

this is also a free forum, so expect people to comment on your suggestions, especially when those are directed to BIS, on a topic where your idea of FUN might fit only yourself.

If you bothered reading my reply, you'd understand how the engine works, and why you get this sort of behavior you make videos about.