Libyan Air-force ordered to bomb protesters

[da12thMonkey 1943]

No actually it shows how in touch with reality I am. If Sarkozy or anyone else cared about stopping genocides they would have gone into Darfur, Chechnya, Cambodia, Rwanda, Liberia, Serria Leone

Foreign intervention is precisely what ended the 10 year civil war in Sierra Leone, so it's probably not the best example to use.

As Stalker pointed out, many of the 'revolutionaries' who committed these acts of genocide in Liberia, Sierra Leone etc were trained in Libya and had significant support from Gadaffi in their endeavors. Particularly Charles Taylor and Foday Sankoh.

It's difficult to gauge an 'appropriate' measure of force against most African countries because their military infrastructure is such a mess. At least we know where we stand with Libya.

[Big Mac 19]

Foreign intervention is precisely what ended the 10 year civil war in Sierra Leone, so it's probably not the best example to use.

By whom? South African mercenaries or the British military? I'll cast my lot in with South African mercenaries, because without their intervention (BTW They were hired by the government of Sierra Leone.) The UN and Brits could have never made the head way they did.

Also foreign intervention in Somalia didn't end the conflict there, hell it didn't even put a dent in it and with all the anti-western sentiment in the world what makes you think when and if Gadiffi is deposed that Libya won't end up like another Somalia, Iraq, or Afghanistan and that's the best case scenario. The worst case is that you get a strong man who fancies himself as a islamic crusader with a serious hatred for Americans and the West in general and who has the means to project that hatred at anyone who supports us and therefor drags us into a regional conflict instead of a civil conflict. Gadiffi at least is an opportunist who will do what's best for him. We'd be doing more good minding our own business than sticking our noses where they don't belong.

As Stalker pointed out, many of the 'revolutionaries' who committed these acts of genocide in Liberia, Sierra Leone etc were trained in Libya and had significant support from Gadaffi in their endeavors. Particularly Charles Taylor and Foday Sankoh.

Trained? I hardly call spray and pray training. The only training they got was from watching Rambo.

It's difficult to gauge an 'appropriate' measure of force against most African countries because their military infrastructure is such a mess. At least we know where we stand with Libya.

There is no appropriate measure of force because it's a civil war and a few dead civilians does not count as genocide. Genocide is when you systematically go out with the intention of killing a group of people who are not like you, not fighting rebels. What happened to the Jews in WW2 was a genocide. Bombing protesters or firing into a crowd of protesters is not genocide. What happened in Darfur was a genocide because they went out with the intent to make the make of Darfur extinct.

The problem with intervening in many of the African nations is that it's damn hard to tell who is on what side. At least with Gaddafi it's a bit more obvious but with many African warlords you wouldn't know one from the other unless you had a very large presence on the ground.

All the more reason for us to mind our own, because in the end you could end up putting in power a tyrant who makes the previous one look like a saint.

Just because intervention didn't happen in previous country's problems, doesn't mean we should start now.

In those countries there were clear cases of genocide, not like in Libya. Edited March 26, 2011 by Big Mac

[STALKERGB 6]

end up like another Somalia, Iraq, or Afghanistan and that's the best case scenario.

Really, you think that is the "best" case scenario? There isn't anything stopping Libya becoming a progressive, liberal country if Gaddafi was removed.

Trained? I hardly call spray and pray training. The only training they got was from watching Rambo.

A very simplistic view to take on African militias, yes a lot of them probably are not well trained but I don't doubt there are a heck of a lot who know exactly what they are doing when the bullets fly.

There is no appropriate measure of force because it's a civil war

Why does it matter whether it is a civil war or not? The fact is one side is heavily out-gunned and out-numbered so NATO/UN/The West have decided to do something.

All the more reason for us to mind our own, because in the end you could end up putting in power a tyrant who makes the previous one look like a saint.

Well there you go, maybe that's why we didn't get involved in Darfur etc. At least with Gaddafi you know where you stand. The anti-government protesters (they are by no means rebels) want a more free, Libya, doesn't sound too bad to me.

Edited March 26, 2011 by STALKERGB

[Big Mac 19]

Why does it matter whether it is a civil war or not? The fact is one side is heavily out-gunned and out-numbered so NATO/UN/The West have decided to do something.

That's still not a pretext to insert yourself in the affairs of another country. There is no genocide and just because one side is outgunned just means it's their shitty luck, so in the end it's still none of our business.

A very simplistic view to take on African militias, yes a lot of them probably are not well trained but I don't doubt there are a heck of a lot who know exactly what they are doing when the bullets fly.

I go on what I see and what I've read and the only trained people in those civil wars were Mercenaries from former eastern bloc nations and from South Africa.

Really, you think that is the "best" case scenario? There isn't anything stopping Libya becoming a progressive, liberal country if Gaddafi was removed.

Riiight. I'm sorry if I'm more cynical and in the end realistic, but the only person who is goingto come out of this the king of the hill is either Gadiaffi or someone from the rebel faction who is either just as ruthless or more so.

Well there you go, maybe that's why we didn't get involved in Darfur etc. At least with Gaddafi you know where you stand. The anti-government protesters (they are by no means rebels) want a more free, Libya, doesn't sound too bad to me.

Yea Castro gave the same song and dance when he overthrew Batista and last time I check Cuba is still a dictatorship.. Also you can slap whatever label you want on them, in a civil war there are two sides, The government and the rebels. Edited March 26, 2011 by Big Mac

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Thank god Obama isn't like you Mac. If he was we would be sitting in a sealed off state, just waiting for the bombs to drop as we watch the rest of the world burn. Even then we probably wouldn't respond if, for instance, the bombs dropped on Canada, or the people killed were a community of new immigrants. (If they aren't Americans we don't do shit huh?)

Edited March 26, 2011 by Darkhorse 1-6

[Big Mac 19]

Thank god Obama isn't like you Mac. If he was we would be sitting in a sealed off state, just waiting for the bombs to drop as we watch the rest of the world burn. Even then we probably wouldn't respond if, for instance, the bombs dropped on Canada, or the people killed were a community of new immigrants. (If they aren't Americans we don't do shit huh?)

Obama is an idiot, just like Bush, he's putting American lives on the line in a war that does not concern the US, just like Bush did in Iraq. I have no problem intervening when there is a genuine case of genocide, but not to go on another nation building adventure. I'm sorry I've seen enough of my friends who i grew up with either come back maimed or not at all due to our nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan. BTW if you're going to debate me fine, but don't take my words out of context and twist them just because you don't agree with me.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Oh I agree Obama is an idiot, but that's neither here nor there. I wasn't quoting you out of context, you clearly said "They aren't even Americans" when talking about the Libyan civilians the airstrikes are supposed to be safeguarding.

[Big Mac 19]

Oh I agree Obama is an idiot, but that's neither here nor there. I wasn't quoting you out of context, you clearly said "They aren't even Americans" when talking about the Libyan civilians the airstrikes are supposed to be safeguarding.

Well it's true they aren't and here at home we have people suffering from unemployment, shitty healthcare, and a economy in recession and we're spending money helping people in Libya? How does that benefit that guy on main street?

[STALKERGB 6]

we're spending money helping people in Libya?

Surely you were spending money on your big ass super carrier being in the Mediterranean anyway?

I go on what I see and what I've read and the only trained people in those civil wars were Mercenaries from former eastern bloc nations and from South Africa.

I met Andy Kershaw recently, he reported on the Rwanda conflict and his account of the militias that ambushed him certainly were not your typical guy who has just picked up a gun for the first time.

How does that benefit that guy on main street?

Well as a selfish view surely it helps to keep oil prices down, rather than letting the country rip itself apart and having unsecured oil deposits.

Edited March 26, 2011 by STALKERGB

[da12thMonkey 1943]

By whom? South African mercenaries or the British military? I'll cast my lot in with South African mercenaries, because without their intervention (BTW They were hired by the government of Sierra Leone.) The UN and Brits could have never made the head way they did.

I was thinking of 2001 when the bombing raids performed by Guinean forces against the RUF's bases, and the involvement of British forces in arming and mobilizing the Sierra Leone government's army via helicopter, allowing them to control the ground, ensnare and destroy much of the RUF.

Executive Outcome's involvement was during the mid-late 1990s; the war continued for another few years after that when the ceasefires forged by EO beating back the RUF failed to form a stable political landscape between the warring factions.

The dissolution of territorial gains by the Sierra Leone government as a result of EO's operations, throughout 1999 and 2000 is what led to the deployment of British forces to evacuate our citizens from the country; the decision to provide further material support to the government was only established once there.

Trained? I hardly call spray and pray training. The only training they got was from watching Rambo.

I'd imagine that small arms handling is a relatively small part of the curriculum at the camps the 'warlords' attended; and that the main thrust of the training is in the planning, command and execution of guerrilla warfare, including recruitment and funding.

I don't think the likes of Mr. Taylor did much in the way of shooting and bomb-making themselves.

There is no appropriate measure of force because it's a civil war and a few dead civilians does not count as genocide. Genocide is when you systematically go out with the intention of killing a group of people who are not like you, not fighting rebels. What happened to the Jews in WW2 was a genocide. Bombing protesters or firing into a crowd of protesters is not genocide. What happened in Darfur was a genocide because they went out with the intent to make the make of Darfur extinct.

Did I call what was happening in Libya a genocide? No. I'm fairly indifferent to their plight; but at the same time British involvement doesn't particularly bother me either.

I only mentioned Sierra Leone and Liberia in reference to genocides; as you did. What I alluded to was the necessity to identify clear military targets in order to intervene on the scale that we are doing in Libya - which is where the marked difference between Libyan intervention, and the 'failure' to intervene in other countries lies.

Short of targeted 'assassinations' there's not much you can do to attack the infrastructure of guerrilla armies and militias like those we saw in the African nations you named - hence intervention isn't particularly viable. Iraq and Afghanistan have show the difficulty in making any head way when in direct action against such forces.

[Big Mac 19]

Surely you were spending money on your big ass super carrier being in the Mediterranean anyway?

To protect American interests, not insert ourselves in a civil war which doesn't affect America in the slightest.

I met Andy Kershaw recently, he reported on the Rwanda conflict and his account of the militias that ambushed him certainly were not your typical guy who has just picked up a gun for the first time.

Try reading the account of a man who actually fought in these wars, AJ Ventor. He describe the majority of the militias as undisciplined rabble and the only ones worth a damn in a fight were the foreign mercenaries.

Well as a selfish view surely it helps to keep oil prices down, rather than letting the country rip itself apart and having unsecured oil deposits.

So you jump from trying to justify the west involvement by saying it's to protect civilians to unsecured oil deposits. Pick one dude, they can't both be right.

Executive Outcome's involvement was during the mid-late 1990s; the war continued for another few years after that when the ceasefires forged by EO beating back the RUF failed to form a stable political landscape between the warring factions.

True but without EO going in your mission would have been a lot harder considering the RUF were never the same after EO kicked the crap out of them.

I'd imagine that small arms handling is a relatively small part of the curriculum at the camps the 'warlords' attended; and that the main thrust of the training is in the planning, command and execution of guerrilla warfare, including recruitment and funding.

Which was mostly handled by mercenaries paid by men like Charles Taylor. Men like Charles Taylor didnt have to do much for recruitment because being of the same tribe means you already got a pool of recruits. Edited March 26, 2011 by Big Mac

[STALKERGB 6]

So you jump from trying to justify the west involvement by saying it's to protect civilians to unsecured oil deposits. Pick one dude, they can't both be right.

*sigh* I was merely offering you a reason why it could affect "the man on the street" not a new justification for actually acting.

the only ones worth a damn in a fight were the foreign mercenaries.

He was one wasn't he? (AJ Venter that is)

Edited March 26, 2011 by STALKERGB

[Big Mac 19]

*sigh* I was merely offering you a reason why it could affect "the man on the street" not a new justification for actually acting.

My mistake, but to many people they don't see how whats going on Libya is worth risking the lives of their loved ones.

He was one wasn't he? (AJ Venter that is)

Yes he was.

[Spokesperson 0]

BBC says there's a core of islamists among the rebels and that mujahideen are coming from abroad to help.

I also find it funny how the rebels bombarded Adjdabiya with mortars, while NATO didn't do anything to protect the civilians. Instead they bombed tanks defending the city. That would be a breach of the UN-agreement.

[1in1class 0]

Rebles/freedom fighter's, what ever you would like to call them:581:

[Big Mac 19]

He looks too stupid to know what to do with democracy..

Edited March 26, 2011 by Big Mac

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

...

[Minutemen 10]

Could we rename the topic's name maybee? Because it came out that "Libyan Air-force ordered to bomb protesters" was a lie and the heading is missguiding.

Rebles/freedom fighter's, what ever you would like to call them

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links

[1in1class 0]

Could we rename the topic's name maybee? Because it came out that "Libyan Air-force ordered to bomb protesters" was a lie and the heading is missguiding.

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links

Lol, you should see the US president's speach about Libya. It's going to be monday March, 28. Iv said that the rebels were terrorist and so on.. but some people on this thread say there freedom fighters and what not, so i just lable it as rebels/freedom fighters. You guys see the one where the rebles capture an abandoned Libya tank? Ill post that up in an min:icon_hm: Ahh mybe you guys should just look it up, its on youtube. Type in "rebels capture Libya tank".

Edited March 26, 2011 by 1in1class

[Minutemen 10]

Didn't you get what i was about? Could we chance the heading please? What does it matter how they look like?

It already came out that this story, that ghaddafis airforce shoot on unarmed protesters, was a lie. They didn't shoot on protesters, they shoot on the rebel forces. By the way. Which protesters have there own Tanks and aircraft fighters?

[Big Mac 19]

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links

Everyone thought I and others like me were wrong and these rebels were the shining hope for a free and democratic Libya... Time to take the horse blinders off kids and see the world for what it is.. Edited March 26, 2011 by Big Mac

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Could we rename the topic's name maybee? Because it came out that "Libyan Air-force ordered to bomb protesters" was a lie and the heading is missguiding.

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links

No... They were PROTESTERS in the beginning. Then Ghaddafi went psycho insane and order pilots to attack them, so the majority armed themselves. (There were probably a few small armed groups, but the people this thread was initially created about were protesters. The protests led to riots, which led to rebellion, which led to insurgency/civil war.)

[Big Mac 19]

No... They were PROTESTERS in the beginning. Then Ghaddafi went psycho insane and order pilots to attack them, so the majority armed themselves.

Well I believe that's proven to be the least of the problems. You obviously either ignored or didn't see the article stating that there are men who killed US troops in Iraq as well as known AQ members fighting with the rebels. In light of that I'm even more against the West protecting these bastards. Darkhorse you're wrong dude, no sense in making yourself look dumb as well (no offense.) Edited March 26, 2011 by Big Mac

[Minutemen 10]

Then Ghaddafi went psycho insane and order pilots to attack them, so the majority armed themselves.

Russian Military Claims Libya Air Strikes Did Not Happen

No airstrikes against unarmed protesters. Just another "Iraqi soldiers throwing babys out of incubators" propaganda horror story. :rolleyes:

[celery 8]

Russian Military Claims Libya Air Strikes Did Not Happen

No airstrikes against unarmed protesters. Just another "Iraqi soldiers throwing babys out of incubators" propaganda horror story. :rolleyes:

Russia Today - news *you* want to hear. :rolleyes: