The debate the right to die (euthanasia)

[vilas 477]

Hint: It's called "assisted suicide" for a reason. If you do not have the ability to kill yourself, but are still able to make the conscious decision that you want to die, then you can get someone to do it for you / help you do it.

but it is not present in law systems of many countries

in many countries it is murder in law

in my country you dont have law to decide about your own life

im not native english speaker

i meant "why the hell someone orders me to suffer"

people who discuss euthanasia sometimes forget about paralised persons, saying "if someone not wants to live he can commite suicide"

but hay, how can you jump of bridge, if you cannot move at all ?

euthanasia in law is only possiblity for such people to decide about themselves

always problematic will be "is someone not forcing them, to take their money"

this is big problem, cause not all families are great and loving, some families are hating within

Edited September 19, 2010 by vilas

[echo1 0]

I doubt that, froggy.

As it is now, it is legal over here but it happens only in extremely severe cases.

These cases being people who live in agony through each day with 0% hope of getting better. That is no kind of life, and in these cases i support euthanasia.

If somebody is just being a mental wreck i say stop being emo and get over it. If you wanna die, jump of a bridge if need be. But essentially with euthanasia you are asking someone else to kill you, which you cant ask for no reason and can sincerely mess with the other person too if the need was not really there.

The irony is that the 'slippery slope' argument he made was in reference to one of my posts, in which I used the Dutch system as an example of how it can go horribly wrong. Refer to my first post on the first page of the thread.

Edited September 21, 2010 by echo1

[Big Mac 19]

Really? You don't see the difference between HUMAN LIFE and ANIMAL LIFE?

There isn't a difference, life is life. I consider all life to precious and meaningful; human or animal and if someone is in pain they should be given the same option that the owner of a pet has and thats being put down. If someone is terminally ill and suffering the most merciful thing a doctor can do is make their end quick and painless.

It doesnt even have to take a religeous person to see difference dude. You don't even have to believes in Souls an' shit to see the worth of an idividual human being compared to an animal's.

Humans are animals, we're just the smartest animals on the planet. Sorry to piss a little hard truth in your coffee.

Humans have rights to live, animals don't, humans are obligated to take care of animals as stewards of this planet, but that's another story.

Wow way to pull something out of your ass. I've always believed that animals have more of a right to live than some of the arrogant idiots that are born today, but that's another story.

But thanks for making the point about "slippery slopes", sooner or later the ending of human life might just be as casual as terminating pets if more people thought like you.

I've now come to the conclusion that you're just talking talking out of your ass and not trying to have a meaningful debate. No one who puts down their pet does it casually. In my life I've only had to put down two of my pets and it was the hardest thing I ever did, but I did it to keep them from suffering anymore than they already were. Take that and apply it to a human and you'd see that the decision would be so hard that it would be left to the person who was going to die. Edited September 22, 2010 by Big Mac

[Gunter Severloh 4066]

In my life I've only had to put down two of my pets and it was the hardest thing I ever did

I can say the same, I had a little dog that lived its age when i was a kid, and a few yrs ago I had a cat that got hurt and was paralyzed from the mid back down, it couldn't walk with its back legs, nor go to the bathroom by itself, when i brought the thing to the vet, they tried steriods, and other medicines to see what would happen, well no luck, they told me its not a life for the animal to not be able to not function normally, and I made the decision seeing i really couldn't do anything but babysit the thing.

then came the day I had to put it down, I was with my pet for 10 min and i couldn't beleive what i was going to have done, but I knew somehow it was the right thing to do, when the doc and nurse came in they gave the thing a shot to put it to sleep and then some poisin stuff to put it down.

I had left before they did the poison part, and was in utter tears when i was driving home, going home without a close friend I raised and known for many years. Now I have a new cat, raised from a kitten been with me 4 years, and i love the thing like its family.

The difference here is that like has been said life is life, no mater what body its in, when you respect, love, and cherish the life,and are emphathetic to how it responds, or acts, thinks feels, if it can then decisions based on whats best and whats needed, if and when it comes to it where they be it a person if they can choose, wishes to end their suffereing, then a decsion must be made, for a pet it is another thing, of course, but you have to weigh the options first, do whats in the best interest if you will of the creature.

My cat was still gitty, and happy even though it was paralyzed, even though It was suffering, well somewhat it had no pain, only when you move her, but it still purred for me like it would always do, it still responded to me, and that something.

Anyways im getting carried away with this, I think I made a relevent enough point on the case.

[vilas 477]

how can you compare human and animals life ??? :O

human has soul, animals not, animals are things made for human (to eat them, to serve/work, etc.)

how can you compare life/death of human and animal

[Big Mac 19]

how can you compare human and animals life ??? :O

human has soul, animals not, animals are things made for human (to eat them, to serve/work, etc.)

how can you compare life/death of human and animal

You know at least BF2_Trooper actually put forth a semi intelligent argument.

How do you know humans have souls? Is it because the bible tells you so? I got news for you the bible is full of shit. As I said before humans are animals. Do you think that 10,000 years we were walking and talking? No we weren't we were behaving just like other animals.

Also whats this BS about animals being put on this earth to service us? I guess the tigers, lions, mountain lions, leopards, dingos, wolves, sharks, etc. didn't the memo...

[BF2_Trooper 0]

You know at least BF2_Trooper actually put forth a semi intelligent argument.

How do you know humans have souls? Is it because the bible tells you so? I got news for you the bible is full of shit. As I said before humans are animals. Do you think that 10,000 years we were walking and talking? No we weren't we were behaving just like other animals.

Also whats this BS about animals being put on this earth to service us? I guess the tigers, lions, mountain lions, leopards, dingos, wolves, sharks, etc. didn't the memo...

I'm sorry dude, but if what you're saying is true, then why don't we give the same rights to animals as we do to fellow human beings? If you really believe animals are the same as humans then you'd better damn well be a vegetarian!

Do animals love? Do they create things? Do you really think they can appreciate life they way we do? I don't care what you think our place on this planet is, but the fact of the matter is WE ARE SUPERIOR BEINGS and as far as anyone can tell THE ONLY SENTIENT BEINGS on this planet. Guess what? It's OKAY to be a Speciest! Especially when it's proven which species has the only intellegence, self-awarness, and free will. And what exactly is your point about 10,000 years ago? I only care about what we've evolved into RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW. We evloved into intelligent sentient beings, other creatures didnt, too f-ing bad. Why be all politically correct about it when animals arent even capable of understanding such concepts?

Am I still pulling stuff out of my ass when I talk about the obvious sentience of human beings? The only point I was trying to make was that human life is more meaningful than animal life. And there's something wrong with that?

---------- Post added at 12:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------

Humans are animals, we're just the smartest animals on the planet. Sorry to piss a little hard truth in your coffee.

Lol, listen, even our secular democratic governments classify Human Rights and Animal Rights as two separate things. And they probably don't believe in souls either! ;)

Honestly dude, go live in an island surrounded with nothing but animals, then come back and tell me if it's no different than being in the company of your Human friends and family.

Edited September 22, 2010 by BF2_Trooper

[Big Mac 19]

I'm sorry dude, but if what you're saying is true, then why don't we give the same rights to animals as we do to fellow human beings? If you really believe animals are the same as humans then you'd better damn well be a vegetarian!

Why should I be a vegetarian? Just because I hold animals in high esteem (sometimes higher than I do my fellow man.) doesn't mean I'm going to give up a good steak.

Do animals love? Do they create things? Do you really think they can appreciate life they way we do? I don't care what you think our place on this planet is, but the fact of the matter is WE ARE SUPERIOR BEINGS and as far as anyone can tell THE ONLY SENTIENT BEINGS on this planet. Guess what? It's OKAY to be a Speciest! Especially when it's proven which species has the only intellegence, self-awarness, and free will. And what exactly is your point about 10,000 years ago? I only care about what we've evolved into RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW. We evloved into intelligent sentient beings, other creatures didnt, too f-ing bad. Why be all politically correct about it when animals arent even capable of understanding such concepts?

Dude have you ever seen a chimp? I have and I've seen them make tools and show critical thinking skills that are on some levels on par with humans. Humans are animals, in fact humans are on some levels worst than animals. You don't see animals fucking each other other over politics, religion, or economic ideals. Humans are the only species on this planet that preys on itself.

Am I still pulling stuff out of my ass when I talk about the obvious sentience of human beings? The only point I was trying to make was that human life is more meaningful than animal life. And there's something wrong with that?

Yes you are and yes it is. As you've most likely noticed already I'm not a people person. It's fair to say that for the most part and with a few of exceptions that I hate my fellow man. I don't hate my fellow man because I'm antisocial or because I think I'm smarter than everyone else I hate my fellow man because every human without fail has moments where they are arrogant to the point of stupidity. You're almost there, vilas one step ahead of you.

Now on to what you said. If you believe all humans are sentient beings I suggest you look at people like Paris Hilton, Sarah Palin, dubya, etc. and tell me that theyre sentient and not just retarded.

Also what makes human life much more precious than animal life? What makes you think an animals doesn't understand the simple concepts of love and loyalty? I've found that animals live up to those concepts better than most humans.

Lol, listen, even our secular democratic governments classify Human Rights and Animal Rights as two separate things. And they probably don't believe in souls either!

Honestly dude, go live in an island surrounded with nothing but animals, then come back and tell me if it's no different than being in the company of your Human friends and family.

Since when did politics have anything to do with this? I'm talking out of pure common sense which is something governments have never known. Why should I go live on an island? Maybe you should so you'd get a better perspective on animals. Stop talking out of your ass. Edited September 22, 2010 by Big Mac

[abs 2]

I'd like to take a minute to point out all the places you're wrong.

Do animals love?

Pretty sure they do.

Do you really think they can appreciate life they way we do?

Yep. This seems to confirm that.

Do they create things?

Check and mate.

I don't care what you think our place on this planet is, but the fact of the matter is WE ARE SUPERIOR BEINGS and as far as anyone can tell THE ONLY SENTIENT BEINGS on this planet. Guess what? It's OKAY to be a Speciest! Especially when it's proven which species has the only intellegence, self-awarness, and free will. And what exactly is your point about 10,000 years ago? I only care about what we've evolved into RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW. We evloved into intelligent sentient beings, other creatures didnt, too f-ing bad. Why be all politically correct about it when animals arent even capable of understanding such concepts?

Unfortunately, you're premise is wrong as illustrated by the links above, and as such there's no point in my refuting an argument built on an incorrect premise.

Am I still pulling stuff out of my ass when I talk about the obvious sentience of human beings? The only point I was trying to make was that human life is more meaningful than animal life. And there's something wrong with that?

Lol, listen, even our secular democratic governments classify Human Rights and Animal Rights as two separate things. And they probably don't believe in souls either! ;)

Honestly dude, go live in an island surrounded with nothing but animals, then come back and tell me if it's no different than being in the company of your Human friends and family.

So, what does all this have to do with the topic of euthanasia?

Abs

[BF2_Trooper 0]

So, what does all this have to do with the topic of euthanasia?

Abs

The fact that human life is a huge deal. And if you and Big Mac wanna believe that a few idiots actually represent the entire human species and focuse only on the negative aspects of mankind then that's your problem.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:15 PM ----------

Stop talking out of your ass.

I talk based on what I see when I wake up every morning , go about my daily life which involves interacting with people. I'm sorry you don't have such an experience.

Edited September 22, 2010 by BF2_Trooper

[Big Mac 19]

I talk based on what I see when I wake up every morning , go about my daily life which involves interacting with people. I'm sorry you don't have such an experience.

So pretty much you don't get out much is that what you're saying?

The fact that human life is a huge deal. And if you and Big Mac wanna believe that a few idiots actually represent the entire human species and focuse only on the negative aspects of mankind then that's your problem.

You see it's not just a few idiots, it's their enormous fan base which includes thousands.

[abs 2]

The fact that human life is a huge deal. And if you and Big Mac wanna believe that a few idiots actually represent the entire human species and focuse only on the negative aspects of mankind then that's your problem.

Human life is a huge deal. So is every life. Again, this topic isn't about animals, and I believe you've now accepted my point since you didn't even bother to respond to the rest of my message.

I don't believe that those few idiots represent all of mankind. Stop putting words in my mouth and start opening up your perspective a little bit. I showed those 'shining examples' of humanity to refute your position that we are superior beings.

Speaking of superior, since that's what you seem to be stuck on, let's use Stephen Hawking as an example. This man has provided so much to humanity through his advancement in the sciences. If one day he said that he is in so much unbearable pain that he would like to end his life will you say 'no' to him? By saying 'no' to his request you're saying 'yes' to his continued sufferring, and that's just cruel.

Abs

[BF2_Trooper 0]

Speaking of superior, since that's what you seem to be stuck on, let's use Stephen Hawking as an example. This man has provided so much to humanity through his advancement in the sciences. If one day he said that he is in so much unbearable pain that he would like to end his life will you say 'no' to him? By saying 'no' to his request you're saying 'yes' to his continued sufferring, and that's just cruel.

Abs

You're providing those few idiots as examples of why we're not superior to animals, I don't know what else to say about what's wrong with your point. Talk to me when these so-called intelligent animals start inventing things, form a society, and attempt to make use their new overlords. I'm just saying you shouldnt compare the termination of pets to that of a human being, no matter how idiotic a person might be! I seem to remember one person in history that actually thought that one group of people can actually be considered "less than human", guess where that lead to?

It's real easy to talk about letting someone lose his/her life regardless of suffering, but when you get down to it, can you really sleep easy knowing that you willinglly let someone die right in front of your eyes? Yeah it sounds like I'm more concerned about my guilt than this person's suffering. Call me cruel or whatever, but I'd rather live in a world where a person can die naturally and is encouraged to live than one where the state legalizes the ending of innocent life.

---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

You see it's not just a few idiots, it's their enormous fan base which includes thousands.

Yes, and unfortunately YOU'RE still part of the same human society that you seem to hate so much and you're actually still participating in it just by the fact that you're using human technology to communicate with other human beings like myself. If anything, you should be glad that there are probably more smart people like yourself that is part of this society.

Edited September 23, 2010 by BF2_Trooper

[Big Mac 19]

Yes, and unfortunately YOU'RE still part of the same human society that you seem to hate so much and you're actually still participating in it just by the fact that you're using human technology to communicate with other human beings like myself. If anything, you should be glad that there are probably more smart people like yourself that is part of this society.

I never said I hated human society, I said I just as a general rule hate humans, because 7 out of 10 people in this world are idiots I prefer to be around the 3 that aren't. Your post made absolutely no sense and goes to show you're still talking out your ass. I was saying how there are more stupid people in this world than smart ones. Edited September 23, 2010 by Big Mac

[st_dux 26]

@Abs:

A few links to extraordinary examples of intelligent animal behavior and ridiculous human behavior doesn't prove anything. BF2_Trooper may be weak-willed and misguided when it comes to his stance on euthanasia, but his point about human superiority is perfectly valid and utterly obvious to an unbiased observer. If all animals have just as much potential as humans, then how come no species has challenged our domination of the Earth?

[BF2_Trooper 0]

I never said I hated human society, I said I just as a general rule hate humans, because 7 out of 10 people in this world are idiots I prefer to be around the 3 that aren't. Your post made absolutely no sense and goes to show you're still talking out your ass. I was saying how there are more stupid people in this world than smart ones.

Sir, I've tried to be respectful to your point of views as much as possible. But if you're simply going to dismiss my views as "talking out of my ass" just because you disagree with them then it is pointless debating with you. Just because I don't have the time to look for various URLs to prove my point dont make my points any less valid.

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------

@Abs:

A few links to extraordinary examples of intelligent animal behavior and ridiculous human behavior doesn't prove anything. BF2_Trooper may be weak-willed and misguided when it comes to his stance on euthanasia, but his point about human superiority is perfectly valid and utterly obvious to an unbiased observer. If all animals have just as much potential as humans, then how come no species has challenged our domination of the Earth?

QFT. Unfortunately, there are some who don't believe in humanity's "Rightful Place" on planet Earth.

[Big Mac 19]

Sir, I've tried to be respectful to your point of views as much as possible. But if you're simply going to dismiss my views as "talking out of my ass" just because you disagree with them then it is pointless debating with you. Just because I don't have the time to look for various URLs to prove my point dont make my points any less valid.

Well if you put forth an intelligent argument I'd debate ya, but you keep saying the say BS over and over and so there for you're talking out of your ass.

You have no point to prove that's why you dont put any links.

[BF2_Trooper 0]

Well if you put forth an intelligent argument I'd debate ya, but you keep saying the say BS over and over and so there for you're talking out of your ass.

You have no point to prove that's why you dont put any links.

Insulting people is no way to start an intelligent arguement. I have no idea why you're replying in such an angry personal manner to my posts. Does hearing someone stand up for humanity really piss you off that much? If so, then I don't think I need to try to prove anything further to you.

Edited September 24, 2010 by BF2_Trooper

[maddogx 13]

You guys are going completely off topic. This is about assisted suicide, not about human vs. animal rights/souls/intelligence/emotions etc.

[abs 2]

If all animals have just as much potential as humans, then how come no species has challenged our domination of the Earth?

Never said they have as much potential, or were superior to us. My point was that all life is equal, and those that think that they are superior to animals need to get off their high horse. We've learned so many lessons from nature, but once we've learned them we claim them as our own and feel smugly superior.

As MadDogX said, and as I asked earlier, this has nothing to do with euthanasia. The way that this whole topic came to light was due to someone saying that we can put down our pets to end their sufferring on merciful grounds, so why can't we do it to humans?

You're providing those few idiots as examples of why we're not superior to animals, I don't know what else to say about what's wrong with your point. Talk to me when these so-called intelligent animals start inventing things, form a society, and attempt to make use their new overlords.

I'm not going to point out that beavers probably invented the dam way before we did, nor that there are a ton of species out there that have their own societies from lions, to ants, to wolfpacks.

I'm just saying you shouldnt compare the termination of pets to that of a human being, no matter how idiotic a person might be! I seem to remember one person in history that actually thought that one group of people can actually be considered "less than human", guess where that lead to?

The idiocy of a person has nothing to do with euthanasia. We shouldn't put down people because they are idiots (we don't even do that with pets).

It's real easy to talk about letting someone lose his/her life regardless of suffering, but when you get down to it, can you really sleep easy knowing that you willinglly let someone die right in front of your eyes? Yeah it sounds like I'm more concerned about my guilt than this person's suffering. Call me cruel or whatever, but I'd rather live in a world where a person can die naturally and is encouraged to live than one where the state legalizes the ending of innocent life.

Yes. I can. I can go to bed and have sweet dreams every night knowing that I helped a person who was sufferring 24/7 end his pain.

You seem to be speaking from a point of view on the 'the world has gone out of control, and we're killing random people' point of view. It's not like euthanasia will ever be the first choice. This will never happen:

Nurse: Doctor, you have a patient in room one.

Dr.: What's wrong with him?

Nurse: He has a broken arm. He's in a lot of pain.

Dr.: Euthanise him.

Euthanisation should be a medical option only when there are no options left. That's the point you seem to be missing.

(...and the fact that we should value all life equally.)

Abs

[Big Mac 19]

Insulting people is no way to start an intelligent arguement. I have no idea why you're replying in such an angry personal manner to my posts. Does hearing someone stand up for humanity really piss you off that much? If so, then I don't think I need to try to prove anything further to you.

Neither does making idiotic comments. You're not standing up for humanity you're proving a point that you can't debate even after you've lost, but as Maddog said we're OT and you dont amuse me anymore.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Big Mac, is BF 2 Trooper arguing against the use of euthanasia?

How would letting a person suffer indescribable pain be Humane? If some of you argue on the basis of human beings having 'souls' and heaven & hell side of things, then you should just run along, while we will run the society in a manner that suits the majority of sane persons.

A society, where you have plumbing & running water, instead of having to shit in a bucket - a frank reference to the religious cult members, mainly Christians.

P.S. Short version: euthanasia and similar 'controversial' practices will become legal in the near future; Christians, Muslims, Chtulhu cult believers can burn a copy of 'On the Origin of the Species', although any rational person would not care.

Freedom of religion is a fundamental Law of the Land, secondly freedom to be ignorant in a developed society must be abolished via above-mentioned euthanasia. :icon_eek:

Edited September 24, 2010 by Iroquois Pliskin

[st_dux 26]

The way that this whole topic came to light was due to someone saying that we can put down our pets to end their sufferring on merciful grounds, so why can't we do it to humans?

While I wouldn't agree that the value of a human life is the same as that of a mouse, I do agree with this statement. People should be allowed to do whatever they like with their own bodies, including end their lives.

[echo1 0]

Euthanisation should be a medical option only when there are no options left. That's the point you seem to be missing.

The road to disaster is always paved with the best of intentions.

How would letting a person suffer indescribable pain be Humane? If some of you argue on the basis of human beings having 'souls' and heaven & hell side of things, then you should just run along, while we will run the society in a manner that suits the majority of sane persons.

I don't think it was ever a question over whether it was 'humane' or not, the issue is whether it is really a good idea when the big picture is looked at.

One of the problems I have with the pro-Euthanasia camp is the strong reliance on straw man arguments, and appealing to people's guilt, and fear of pain and suffering (albeit not necessarily deliberately in the latter two instances). People can churn out stories of situations where euthanasia would have been perfect for someone they knew who was wasting away in agony, and it sort of puts people in a situation whereby if they don't think that the suffering person deserved to chose to end their own suffering, then they look like an asshole, and they feel reluctantly obliged to agree with the idea of euthanasia. But there are a lot of issues, both practical and moral, that these idealized scenarios don't address, and so any meaningful assessment of euthanasia has to look beyond petty name calling and insinuations that people who disagree with you are religious lunatics in order to go anywhere useful.

P.S. Short version: euthanasia and similar 'controversial' practices will become legal in the near future; Christians, Muslims, Chtulhu cult believers can burn a copy of 'On the Origin of the Species', although any rational person would not care.

To labor the point further - I've been an atheist since I was ten years old. I don't think Euthanasia is a good idea. Your argument is invalid.

Edited September 24, 2010 by echo1

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

To labor the point further - I've been an atheist since I was ten years old. I don't think Euthanasia is a good idea. Your argument is invalid.

The topic at hand doesn't involve atheism.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire -- This quote does not apply to the 21st Century, I wish to see a society where if you continue to remain ignorant of the obvious, you fall down and never recover.

Come back to me when you've hit a 150k paying salary at the age of 28, bought your first Porsche and then got into an accident that wasn't caused by you, which left you paralyzed on both sides: you can still hear, TALK without your lips moving, see with your own eyes... on a hospital bed.

Or that time you've developed HIV and were getting all kinds of COMMON COLDS whenever you opened a window at home.

Ignorance is bliss, until it's not.

Furthermore, I would fly over to your place and break some legs to get the point across; but obvious things don't need such measures. And in this case you wouldn't be begging to be euthanized, since you know who the perpetrator is and why he did it. Vengeance would probably be going through your mind, as you lay on a bed, strapped to life-supporting machines.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Iroquois Pliskin