Royal navy buys Hornets not JSF...

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

regardless of airframe, those armed with AMRAM consistently defeated those armed with Sidewinder. The missile was the only apparent decider.

That's because:

AMRAAM = Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile ... Active radar homing and BVR weapons system with range of about 30 miles...

Sidewinder = Short range AA missile with Infra-red homing which means you have to be in visual range of the target to lock and hit.

Those aircraft using amraam can launch their missiles before the guy using a sidewinder can even get a lock.

[Baff1 0]

Also they don't actually fire them, so we have no clue as to whether or not a pilot is able to evade a missile.

You know like in Top Gun when they start pulling heavy gee's to get out of the way or something.

I sort of feel that a missile should be able to outperfrom an aeroplane in terms of speed and agility. Power to weight and no human body to protect...

Also since they don't actually fire them... we don't know if Ammrammramm does what it says on the tin. Sidewinders have a combat history. We know they work well.

Amram, some pilot guy gets a lock and the missile manufacturer says "that's a kill". It's bit flimsy.

There is more than one type of Amram apparently.

In that particular show I watched, the brits were claiming to pwn the yanks with their improved Amrams but the yanks were claiming to have wtf pwned the brits with theirs...

Every single airforce participating left the combat convinced that they had killed everyone else for no losses.

LMAO. To a man.

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

Yep, that's politics.

In reality if you time it right you can manouver to evade an incoming missile and use its own speed against it. Once it goes past at mk3 plus it isn't exactly going to turn round and come back at you... not unless it's a VERY clever missile with a large amount of fuel. I'm not claiming that this is easy to achieve however.

Bring back the Genie AIR-2.. Epic air to air win.

[rksl-rock 1300]

Slightly ontopic but since we've covered the Indian M-MRCA competition several times and its related to Super hornets etc....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mirage-2000s-withdrawn-as-indias-mrca-fighter-competition-changes-01989/

Shortlist released: Rafale vs. Typhoon. Gripen, Super Hornet, F-16 and MiG-35 are out; US ambassador quits. (April 28/11)

Meat of the Article:

April 28/11: One day after American fighters are not included in India’s M-MRCA competition shortlist, American ambassador Timothy Roemer resigns his post. India’s Business Standard | domain-B | Los Angeles Times | Times of India | Wall Street Journal’s India RealTime.

April 27/11: Shortlist – Rafale vs. Eurofighter. With existing bid set to expire on April 28/11, India’s MoD reportedly sent letters to Eurofighter GmbH and Dassault, extending the validity of their bids. The net effect of this is that bids from the other 4 contenders will expire on the 28th, removing Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Block 70, Boeing’s F/A-18E/F, Russia’s MiG-35, and Saab’s JAS-39NG from the competition.

The elimination of both American competitors is something of a surprise. The F-16 was widely seen as having little chance, but the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet was another matter. Absent any statement or confirmation from India, analysts are left guessing as to the reasons for India’s choice. A US defense industry association’s magazine wonders if US military technology export restrictions played a role. Others are asking questions about the strength of the US-India relationship under Obama. Carnegie Endowment scholar Ashley Tellis, who has covered the competition via an in-depth report, said that:

“As best I can tell, the downselect was made entirely on the basis of the technical evaluations – the cost of the aircraft or the strategic considerations did not enter into the picture.â€

If so, it is true that the Eurofighter and Rafale offer better aerodynamic performance than either American offering. Still, this is India, and no deal has been signed yet. Remaining steps include fresh commercial bids that will remain valid for the next 2 years, finalized industrial offset proposals, and discussions with a cost negotiation committee for the winning company. Despite hopes of a deal by March 2012, September 2012 is seen by some as a more likely time frame for a contract.

Edited April 30, 2011 by RKSL-Rock

[Prydain 1]

Well done Europe.

Its an interesting one because it would be all to typical for a sudden state visit to occur leading to a US product getting the contract with 'review of resources' or 'change in capability' being cited. As the article says, it ain't over.

Offtopic: One thing I didn't like when the article said: "Others are asking questions about the strength of the US-India relationship under Obama." Specifically naming him, as if he is doing something wrong, seems a bit unfair.

[rksl-rock 1300]

Well done Europe.

Its an interesting one because it would be all to typical for a sudden state visit to occur leading to a US product getting the contract with 'review of resources' or 'change in capability' being cited. As the article says, it ain't over.

Oh no the political bullying is just beginning. If you read some of the news articles a lot of the US press and analysts seem to think it wont be hard to "pressure" India into choosing an American product. Its ironic how they are now doing this, especially after all the accusations of European governments "illegally" supporting Airbus and all the other "unfair" European business practices. Its not like they aren't making a fortune already. India has already committed US$4.5 Billion on military procurement contracts with the US this year alone.

Its bad enough they change the rules (ignore and change laws) to let a US contractor to win the KC-X tanker competition but now they are screwing with other countries selections. Talk about being bad losers ;)

Offtopic: One thing I didn't like when the article said: "Others are asking questions about the strength of the US-India relationship under Obama." Specifically naming him, as if he is doing something wrong, seems a bit unfair.

I don't follow US internal politics very much but it seems Obama is getting blamed for everything now. Including the recent EF4 Tornado... "The tornado is a sign and judgment from God about Obama and America today!"

We'll see though. It depends on how much the US want to bully/piss off/offend the world second fastest growing market.

[Prydain 1]

Its bad enough they change the rules (ignore and change laws) to let a US contractor to win the KC-X tanker competition but now they are screwing with other countries selections. Talk about being bad losers ;)

I was thinking about that while reading it. If your going to be moving the goalposts, don't ask anyone to come along.

I don't follow US internal politics very much but it seems Obama is getting blamed for everything now. Including the recent EF4 Tornado... "The tornado is a sign and judgment from God about Obama and America today!"

Lol, crackers and their magical friend. They are quite brazen about being racist at him across the pond, it seems acceptable to them...

[Inkompetent 0]

Oh, well. Too bad with the JAS-39. It's probably the end of Saab's military aviation production now with yet another of the few prospective buyers choosing other planes.

At least on their own. Maybe we'll see them in the future in a collaborative development of a new plane, but don't think Saab (or Sweden) can afford to make a plane of their own again.

[rksl-rock 1300]

Oh, well. Too bad with the JAS-39. It's probably the end of Saab's military aviation production now with yet another of the few prospective buyers choosing other planes.

At least on their own. Maybe we'll see them in the future in a collaborative development of a new plane, but don't think Saab (or Sweden) can afford to make a plane of their own again.

They didn't really make it on thier own in the first place. From the C/D varient onwards the project had to be bailed out by BAe/BAE Systems. It wasnt until then that the aircraft actually started to function as a multirole aircraft.

And lets be honest its not done so badly. Even without the Indian contracts it had over 260 aircraft rolling out the assembly line to date. Thats nearly as much as Typhoon has as well.

Specifically relating to the M-MRCA contract: I suspect if it was a twin engine airframe It may well have stood a better chance. It is a 'time' proven system now and it seems to be both reliable and cost effective.

[Prydain 1]

Yeah, no need to be down when it comes to the JAS-39, it has held its own against the big boys.

I ain't sure how far Brazil are to choosing their next fighter (or if they have already done it -- I don't know what their project is even called) but the JAS-39 is surely in for that? It would be interesting to see whether the MRCA winner gets a boost in sales elsewhere if it wins this contract. Either way BAE have been having a decent time with aircraft in relative terms, they appear to be a winner. I think that the two remaining in the MRCA are top offers, the Typhoon is probably the best in the world, the Rafale is utter win and I'm sure the Indians are happy with their Mirage 2000's and, I don't know anything about this, but a possible carrier aircraft?

Also I was told by a mindless, drooling friend of mine that the Typhoon is being offered with the option of thrust vectoring. I don't understand this because I am 'teh layman'. They designed the aircraft from the ground up to be so pitch-happy that it can't glide just to make it supermanoeuvrable, thrust vectoring seems to be a maintenance/weight burden for what? Post-stall drifting? I can understand it on the Su-37 as it is a development from an older airframe or on the F22 because its body had other considerations other than agility and, you know, it added to the list of buzzwords that Lockheed could feed US congressmen.

[Inkompetent 0]

Very true, Rock, but that's also a result of change in Swedish politics afaik. Previously we weren't really interested in sending planes anywhere outside of Sweden, so actual air-refueling and other NATO/joint ops/expeditionary service functionality and compatability wasn't very important. The other upgrades in the C version are quite natural modernizations imo, of the same time most other planes do get.

I do not have enough insight to say how big part BAE has in the changes actually happening though (now that Swedish foreign politics actually make the full suite of such improvements viable on our own planes, and not only export ones), but I don't doubt that the expertise and technology held by BAE helped a great deal in turning it into reality.

And indeed it is a fantastic plane, but as you say only with a single engine. With the limited performance of that single engine it is fairly lackluster for countries who want a multirole-plane to cover all jobs (while the Viggen on the other hand had an awesome engine for its time, but then again suffered in other ways from that huge, thirsty piece of machinery).

I'm not really saying that the JAS-39 has done bad though. It's done 'well enough'. But with the very limited export success it undoubtedly makes it more difficult to make a new plane happen. The involvement of BAE will help, and maybe that the economy can play nicely into the hands of Sweden as well and help us afford to develop a new plane.

A collaboration would undoubtedly help with making a new plane take shape, but seeing how attempts at deals with Norway, Finland and Denmark has been going this far I'm not entirely sure it actually will happen. Purchase and possible modification of foreign planes, or the expensive venture of a Swedish-developed plane somehow seems more likely. The latter less so.

@Pyradain

I too am quite interested in how the Brazil deal is going, although I haven't seen any news on it in almost a year. Last I heard the JAS-39 was doing quite well, but I've got no idea how things have gone after that.

Non the less I'm quite impressed by the JAS-39 making it to the MRCA as only single-engine competitor to such a widely and long-time produced plane as the F-16. Even then though, the low number of single-engine planes unsurprisingly meant that it was bad off from the start, since it was apparant India was interested in something with better performance than a single engine can offer.

[rksl-rock 1300]

Very true, Rock, but that's also a result of change in Swedish politics afaik. Previously we weren't really interested in sending planes anywhere outside of Sweden, so actual air-refueling and other NATO/joint ops/expeditionary service functionality and compatability wasn't very important. The other upgrades in the C version are quite natural modernizations imo, of the same time most other planes do get.

I do not have enough insight to say how big part BAE has in the changes actually happening though (now that Swedish foreign politics actually make the full suite of such improvements viable on our own planes, and not only export ones), but I don't doubt that the expertise and technology held by BAE helped a great deal in turning it into reality.

The BAe issue depends on where you sit I guess. My understanding was that the A/C and had 'some issues' that meant it was struggling to perform as spec. BAe's involvement improved the design and opened the door to export sales.

I have a friend at Saab who sees it from a slightly different viewpoint but we both seem to agree that the C/D versions wouldn't have been possible without BAe's money, re-design and manufacturing. Well it could have happened but it wouldn't have been as cost effective. And it was the C/D version upgrades are what actually made the aircraft attractive in export terms. 40% of the airframe was changed under BAe. Improved wings, lighter but stronger bulkheads etc

And indeed it is a fantastic plane, but as you say only with a single engine. With the limited performance of that single engine it is fairly lackluster for countries who want a multirole-plane to cover all jobs (while the Viggen on the other hand had an awesome engine for its time, but then again suffered in other ways from that huge, thirsty piece of machinery).

Well the Indian offering was based on the Gripen NG. A reworked and much 'gadgeted' and more powerful Gripen C. Apart from the main gear track being widened and some key structural work its virtually the same aircraft but with added toys. And in that format it actually - on paper at least - seems to perform almost as well as the twin engine equivalent in all areas that matter. Save one, the safety aspect of flying a twin engine plane.

I'm not really saying that the JAS-39 has done bad though. It's done 'well enough'. But with the very limited export success it undoubtedly makes it more difficult to make a new plane happen. A collaboration would undoubtedly help with making a new plane take shape, but seeing how attempts at deals with Norway, Finland and Denmark has been going this far I'm not entirely sure it actually will happen. Purchase and possible modification of foreign planes, or the expensive venture of a Swedish-developed plane somehow seems more likely. The latter less so.

Sweden/Saab isn't alone in that situation. Britain hasn't produced a solely British fighter since the Sea Harrier. And other indigenous projects have all been cancelled eg Nimrod etc due to cost.

Apart from the US and China no other nation is developing a new airframe alone. Everyone else is cooperating. Given the cost and duration of aircraft design, I think, collaboration eg EuroFighter is the only realistic way these days.

Norway will go either with the F-35 or the latest block F-16. It depends on the concessions and subsidies they can weasel out of the US. They screwed EuroFighter around for 7 years (I spent 6 months in Oslo and Kongsberg over 2 years) demanding offset work and technology transfers which they got then backed out of the deal when the time to sign on the order came around.

I too am quite interested in how the Brazil deal is going, although I haven't seen any news on it in almost a year. Last I heard the JAS-39 was doing quite well, but I've got no idea how things have gone after that.

If I may: It looks like Brazil will be buying Rafales.

But having said that... there are also the usual accusations of corruption and back handers in Brazil so who knows :P

Edited May 1, 2011 by RKSL-Rock

[Inkompetent 0]

Thanks for the fleshing out of information.

And indeed I know pretty much noone can afford to make planes anymore. The Eurofighter is a pretty pristine example of that I'd say, when countries as wealthy as UK and Germany decide to collaborate to be able to bring out a competitive product.

It was more however to highlight Sweden's incapability of joint development projects (reasons are irrelevant here). But who knows? Maybe need will actually make cooperation work in a decade or two from now, when we'll need to upgrade.

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

Back on to the original topic slightly, I saw on the news (BBC news channel once again not reporting the whole story for whatever reason) that the bill for the new carriers was going up because they have to be modified to accomodate "American built fighter planes". This was of course referring to the F-35C that we are now getting instead of the F-35B but the whole report made it sound like we were completely ditching one aircraft and going with some dodgy yank alternative. I wish they'd get their facts right before going to air and write the stories properly, we've always been getting the JSF. It's a bit worrying that the beeb are getting shoddy lately, not researching or writing their reports correctly and completely missing things that happen (like riots and violent protests in mainland UK) in favour of continuing to cover a wedding days after it happened.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

If I may: It looks like Brazil will be buying Rafales.

Since that article was made, Brazil pretty much agreed that they would buy Rafale. However, since then they have elected a new president who has asked to re-assess all military procurement contracts put forward in the final months of the previous administration (things like the fighter jet program and the planned co-development of Type 26 Frigates with the RN).

For a while I think the new pres stated Brazil had no money for new fighters, but she seems to have changed her mind since.

There was some speculation that Obama was trying to hammer out a deal on Super Hornets for Brazil on his visit there in March. This visit took place when the French were going ahead and launching raids into Libya with Rafale before the RN and USN had planned to open proceedings with Tomahawk salvos.

The French jumping the gun was much to the chagrin of the other members of the alliance; so there's been some speculation over the convenient timing of France's opening raids in relation to Obama's talks in Brazil.

[Prydain 1]

Whats a little competition between friends? Good on them I say.