Mythbusters ArmA edition.

[madrussian 347]

Hi MadRussian

Mission includes none vanilla ArmA content.

Map.eu Mod to be precise.

Yes, as detailed in the thread, MAP.EU is required. (Should have mentioned in my post above also.) MAP.EU simply allows access to standard BIS objects that cannot be accessed without it. That's all it does.

Myth remains busted.

You cannot bust a myth with a simple video (or many for that matter) showing cases where something works correctly, especially when there is direct evidence to the contrary. You need to actually address specific claims, in this case specific claims that AI-view-blocking is faulty under specific circumstances. Yes, Adam and Jamie would be quite displeased with some of the methods in play here. :D

Good luck debunking these claims though, because regarding AI-view-blocking, we have cold hard facts in our favor.

Don't get me wrong though, I don't happen to like these AI-view-blocking issues. And I do hope BIS (or perhaps our old friend Durg) will completely fix them someday. :)

[walker 0]

Hi MadRussian

You can not prove a negative. As you should know. So I will not fall into that trap. ;) That is why it is up to you to prove the myth with a proper example mission.

If you can prove what you are saying fine but I submit you can not.

I take the fact that you cannot provide a proof possitive example of AI view block failure by not even a single bush in vanilla ArmA II for what it is: Mythbusted.

Kind Regards Walker

Edited July 24, 2010 by walker

[Big Dawg KS 6]

This has been the same for the ai all the way back from 2001

If you mean that it has been the same that bushes have always provided concealment against the AI since 2001 then yes, you would be correct.

Look, bushes provide at least some concealment. This is been proven. As for the amount, that's up for debate. But to say that bushes make no difference is totally false.

[Fox '09 14]

are they expecting stupid ai or something? if i see someone run behind a bush, I'm going to shoot the bush.

[RomeoSierra 10]

are they expecting stupid ai or something? if i see someone run behind a bush' date=' I'm going to shoot the bush.[/quote']

I'm sure that guy that just shot my buddy was here a minute ago......ah well, hmph Dave it's your round isn't it....BANG, POP, SPLAT Dave? FFS who shot Dave? Tim was it you? BANG, Tim?......RIGHT! I'm going to have a word with the grounds-keeper about this.

:D:D

[walker 0]

Walker I have done my own test and the AI can see you through bushes very easy. I will try and get some screen shots to show you the test I ran.

This has been the same for the ai all the way back from 2001

Hi

No Need to video it, though it would be helpful.

The more important thing is a repeatable experiment in the form of a Vanilla mission in editor form.

This is basic science 101.

Kind Regards walker

[Heatseeker 0]

Its very simple to test and witness the a.i. "seeing" thru objects and buildings, let alone bushes and trees..

I ordered an a.i. squadmate to stop and target a civilian who was walking back and forth behind a large building (F2, 2, 0..), he had no LOS but as long as i could see this civ he could target and follow his movement precisely.

This is how the a.i. "cheats" and sometimes you get shot the moment you step 1 mm behind cover, grouped a.i. can "see" and target you thru eachothers "eyes".

Not a myth...

[madrussian 347]

Hi Walker. I hope you will try my test mission. It's quite entertaining, actually! :)

Here's an excerpt from one of my posts on the X-Ray AI thread. Please read carefully before firing up the test mission:

In order to specifically show exactly what i'm having an issue with, fire up arma2 with no addons running (only map_eu.pbo), and then try my test mission which i've uploaded here.

Inside you will find immediate death at the hands of an AI soldier standing on the other side of a massive visually impenetrable vegetation barrier. The AI cannot possibly hear you, because you haven't moved. He cannot possibly see you because i have placed well over 1000 robust bush objects (wide at the base, taller than a man) in a very small area, and the ground is perfectly flat.

If at this point, you are now curious, as i was, move the enemy AI out of the way, restart the mission, and take a good look at the colossal vegetation barrier i have erected. It is so thick, i don't even think you can walk through it! You cannot see any pixels through it! Over 1000 dense bushes so densely packed, that you can't even get to the other side or see a single pixel on the other side, yet the AI has detected and shot you with deadly accuracy in a matter of seconds!!! Something is wrong!!! :butbut:

This bears repeating:

There is no rational explanation why the ai would have any idea you are there. At least in terms of rational human thought, the "surface" in this specific example could have absolutely no bearing what-so-ever.

In other words, if the "surface" is causing the AI to be able to deploy x-ray vision through a densely packed sea of over 1000 burley bushes, then there is a significant problem with how the "surface" algorithm is being implemented.

Or maybe there's just really something else terribly wrong with AI view blocking in certain cases. One way or the other, i'd really like to get to the bottom of it.

I challenge anyone to explain what is going on in that test mission. And hopefully propose a solution to fundamentally fix the issue.

Anyone who has any doubt what-so-ever on the AI-view-blocking issue (who currently leans either way, it matters not) should try this test mission out, and decide for yourself.

If this does not convince you that there are issues with AI-view-blocking under certain conditions, well then nothing will!!! :D

[r71 0]

If you mean that it has been the same that bushes have always provided concealment against the AI since 2001 then yes, you would be correct.

Look, bushes provide at least some concealment. This is been proven. As for the amount, that's up for debate. But to say that bushes make no difference is totally false.

I been playing OFP/ARMA for a long time, dont even try and mix my words.

You can say some, but its some to zero.

I would love to get you video or a screenshot but xfire does not seem to work in arma for me. I also get nothing but black screen in paint.

Edited July 24, 2010 by R71

[NeMeSiS 11]

Its very simple to test and witness the a.i. "seeing" thru objects and buildings, let alone bushes and trees..

I ordered an a.i. squadmate to stop and target a civilian who was walking back and forth behind a large building (F2, 2, 0..), he had no LOS but as long as i could see this civ he could target and follow his movement precisely.

This is how the a.i. "cheats" and sometimes you get shot the moment you step 1 mm behind cover, grouped a.i. can "see" and target you thru eachothers "eyes".

Not a myth...

There is another way for them to shoot you trough bushes

Which isnt 'cheating', its a feature.

This is in ArmA1 though, in ArmA2 their ears seem to be less sensitive (Thankfully).

Edited July 24, 2010 by NeMeSiS

[Heatseeker 0]

There is another way for them to shoot you trough bushes

Which isnt 'cheating', its a feature.

That is more or less a valid situation, what i described is totally diferent.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Heatseeker

[r71 0]

NeMeSiS, the best way to see how the ai tracks you when you move and go behind cover is to put the ai in charge of you and watch the target marker move. If something moves fast behind cover the marker will move with it and keep going in the same direction, even if the target stops. Its a way for them to guess where you might have gone.

The test I did with the ai is that I dont move at all.

Edited July 24, 2010 by R71

[NeMeSiS 11]

NeMeSiS, the best way to see how the ai tracks you when you move and go behind cover is to put the ai in charge of you and watch the target marker move. If something moves fast behind cover the marker will move with it and keep going in the same direction, even if the target stops. Its a way for them to guess where you might have gone.

Thats basically what i wrote in the description of that video, except that the position may be accurately updated not just by seeing, but also by hearing the enemy.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Its very simple to test and witness the a.i. "seeing" thru objects and buildings, let alone bushes and trees..

I ordered an a.i. squadmate to stop and target a civilian who was walking back and forth behind a large building (F2, 2, 0..), he had no LOS but as long as i could see this civ he could target and follow his movement precisely.

This is how the a.i. "cheats" and sometimes you get shot the moment you step 1 mm behind cover, grouped a.i. can "see" and target you thru eachothers "eyes".

Not a myth...

Sounds like too much information sharing then. Has nothing to do with AI detection, which IMO is pretty good. Not perfect, but still pretty good.

[Heatseeker 0]

Sounds like too much information sharing then. Has nothing to do with AI detection, which IMO is pretty good. Not perfect, but still pretty good.

Its a perfect example because the unit was a harmless civilian so i wasnt even reporting it. My conclusion is that if 1 element of a group has LOS with a target all other members of the group are able to pinpoint the target regardless of having LOS or not.

I remember making all kinds of tests when i suspected that ballistics were responsible for bad performance when you fight a.i. in towns.

[madrussian 347]

Its a perfect example because the unit was a harmless civilian so i wasnt even reporting it. My conclusion is that if 1 element of a group has LOS with a target all other members of the group are able to pinpoint the target regardless of having LOS or not.

Nice characterization! Seems like what you have pin-pointed here explains much of biotic AI sighting the player.

For the record though, as far as my test mission goes: There are only two units in the mission, you and a single enemy AI standing on the other side of a mega-mass of vegetation. And somehow he can detect and kill you right through all that mass-bush. Happens right when you start up the mission, even when you stay perfectly still from the get-go!

So there's definitely something wrong going on specific to actual AI-view-blocking, and perhaps surface, etc...

...aside from "seeing through each other's eyes" (which again is an awesome discovery by itself, Heatseeker).

[NeMeSiS 11]

Nice characterization! Seems like what you have pin-pointed here explains much of biotic AI sighting the player.

For the record though, as far as my test mission goes: There are only two units in the mission, you and a single enemy AI standing on the other side of a mega-mass of vegetation. And somehow he can detect and kill you right through all that mass-bush. Happens right when you start up the mission, even when you stay standing still from the get-go!

So there's definitely something wrong going on specific to actual AI-view-blocking, and perhaps surface, etc...

...aside from "seeing through each other's eyes" (which again is an awesome discovery by itself, Heatseeker).

We asked you to repeat this test with vanilla map-object bushes, because i cannot reproduce this. (For example with the old video on the previous page, or the demo mission i made in your old topic)

[Wolfstriked 11]

Walker,your presentation made me happy I never joined the force.Scary to think that you are never really covered unless say in a tank with enemy lacking AT weapons.So now I will try to do the fire and move scenario.Question....do sandbags stop bullets?

[r71 0]

Map: Chernarus

Grid: 049,128 bottom left side, you will find a orange and green bush right next to each other. This will be north of the dirt trail that runs west to east.

I use super ai (never play without it) and max skill on all troops. Use two BLUFOR Rifleman. I set two down so I can zoom way out to watch the ai move and to help me see what they see. I put the rifleman in my group in another town so he is not near me.

Use OPFOR rifleman max skill around grid 047,127 on the west side of the hangers to block their view and give me time to tuck in next to the bush. They are on normal waypoints to go past me. make sure the waypoints are not near you and are on the south side of that dirt trail. The last way point is way east of me

I make sure I do not move at all and just to the command view to move my view around. And yes my guy is flat on the ground and no way that the ai had time to see me do it. I also have no mods at all in.

Other fun stuff to do: Set same type of ai down put one opfor 10m in front of you looking the other way and see if you can even tap a move button. This is one reason why we cant use knives in arma.

Edited July 25, 2010 by R71

[madrussian 347]

I wasn't aware that there even were bush entries in vanilla (i.e didn't think there were), and thus I was using map_eu to get at them. I'll try and find the equivalent of that map_eu bush and see if it's in there. It may be that map_eu is the only way to place that particular bush...

In the mean time, certainly map_eu does nothing beyond making assets available to the editor. Does anyone believe that map_eu does anything at all beyond this purpose?!?

btw- I understand why some would like to believe that AI-view blocking in ArmA 2 is perfect. After all, who in their right mind would want problems in the game? But I think it's important to note that there are a great number of us who have issues with AI seeing through vegetation. Turning a blind eye can't be the answer.

@NeMeSiS- What happens when you run my specific test mission (with map_eu)? Are you shocked by the result? Just curious. :)

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Just a comment on the last item. You can take out an M1A1 with 2 shots from a T-34. I assume you fired at the front armor, while I fired at the rear.

[r71 0]

Just a comment on the last item. You can take out an M1A1 with 2 shots from a T-34. I assume you fired at the front armor, while I fired at the rear.

Yeah it takes more hits, check the side and front hits (6). Also when you hit it from rear it may only take two hits but their is more of a delay after the second hit. I guess its the type of round (Heat) in the T-55, and AP in the T-34.

Edited July 25, 2010 by R71

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

there is more of a delay after the second hit. I guess its the type of round (Heat) in the T-55, and AP in the T-34.

I believe your right. Also, while there was a delay, it was only about 2 seconds, and as soon as the 2nd round hit the M1A1 was crippled and unable to move or turn its turret. 2 seconds after impact, the crew bails out. 2-5 seconds after they bailed, but before they moved away, it cooked off.

[Bouben 3]

AI seeing through grass is not mythbusted at all. It is a pure fact. People involved more deeply into this particular problem will agree.

So please, do not spread the myth.

[Guest]

I find the grass layer to work perfectly to be honest. Don't forget, it's just grass, it doesn't make you invisible, which is what everyone seems to expect?

With AI on max difficulty I can sit metres away from them, prone in a ghillie suit. The same can not be done if you are not camouflaged. Works fine for me!

I don't think I would every try "hiding" in the grass in real life, unless knew exactly waht I was doing and what the situation was. Very easy way to die...

And obviously, if the AI has already seen you, of course they are going to shoot you if you just go prone and expect to become invisible! :p