New Weaponsway is way to much. And holding breath bug?

Good in depth vids as far as I can tell.

Nice to get feedback on the sway from someone who is/was actually military, in a video.

Shame BI have changed the sway when you consider he says its accurate in the current build.

To the guy who says it should be mostly vertical:

I only know what shooting a pistol is like, but when I try to hold it steady, it shakes horizontally more than it does vertically.

To the guy who says it should be mostly vertical:

I only know what shooting a pistol is like, but when I try to hold it steady, it shakes horizontally more than it does vertically.

Someone needs to show you how to properly shoot then. I can shoot my pistol all day without any horizontal sway and not having any trouble hitting targets.

Also, if its shaking that much you might have high blood pressure or just need to calm down :)

As for PepperBelly and the military experience thing... I was in the military too, and did hundreds of drills far more complex than that. Horizontal sway? Minimal.

I now work in a related field and get to play with all kinds of weapons every day. I've had many conversations with people about sway lately and everyone agrees that horizontal sway is not noticeable when you have trained and practiced with weapons long enough.

Once again though, its a debate between Bohemia making a system that makes shooting more challenging versus those of us who feel it breaks immersion and isn't realistic. Its ultimately just a matter of opinion.

I'll keep finding a way around this ridiculous new system :)

Once again though, its a debate between Bohemia making a system that makes shooting more challenging versus those of us who feel it breaks immersion and isn't realistic. Its ultimately just a matter of opinion.

I'll keep finding a way around this ridiculous new system :)

See, this is the part where your messages are getting confusing. By your own admission, the system is fine. You said that the sway is fine, it should just have the amplitude on the x and y axes switched, so that it's basically as though you took the current sway, and rotated it 90 degrees. That' snot a bad system. It's not a choice between realistic and challenging. It's just a minor tweak to the current sway.

When you call the whole system ridiculous, that's what makes people think you want the sway to be removed or drastically changed.

See, this is the part where your messages are getting confusing. By your own admission, the system is fine. You said that the sway is fine, it should just have the amplitude on the x and y axes switched, so that it's basically as though you took the current sway, and rotated it 90 degrees. That' snot a bad system. It's not a choice between realistic and challenging. It's just a minor tweak to the current sway.

When you call the whole system ridiculous, that's what makes people think you want the sway to be removed or drastically changed.

Have you not read the last few pages? O.o

I said it is ridiculous because of the horizontal part... I never said I want *the entire system* removed nor did I say it was fine. I agreed with Coul in that the challenge it adds makes the results of long range engagements better.

And for getting around the system, I've already done that by *drastically reducing the horizontal sway* so far.

Have you not read the last few pages? O.o

I said it is ridiculous because of the horizontal part... I never said I want *the entire system* removed nor did I say it was fine. I agreed with Coul in that the challenge it adds makes the results of long range engagements better.

And for getting around the system, I've already done that by *drastically reducing the horizontal sway* so far.

Have the last few pages not been about how you think the sway should be flipped sideways, so it's more vertical and less horizontal?

What I'm saying, in response to your last post, is that tweaking it so there is the same amount of sway, but it's heavier on the vertical axis than the horizontal axis doesn't make the game less challenging. Countering it is the same, you're just moving your mouse more up and down and less side to side. It's the same mechanic, it's just tweaked slightly.

So I guess I'm back to not understanding exactly how it is you think the sway should be changed. Do you think that the amplitude of the sway is too high? Do you think that the amplitude is fine, but that it's on the wrong axis? Or do you think the amplitude is too high and it's on the wrong axis?

I was under the impression that you thought the amplitude was mostly the fine, but that it should be more in the Y-axis than the X-axis. If that is in fact the case, then I would argue that you're okay with the idea and principle of the system, you just think it should have a minor tweak to it's implemenation. When I see that you stated that you're "finding a way around this ridiculous system" I think that you are not okay with the idea and principle of the system and think that the sway should be significantly reduced overall, such that it no longer impairs long range shooting.

Sorry if this sounds nitpicky, but I'm trying to figure out what discussion we are having, and I think that being precise is important since the devs have already started implementing changes based on player feedback.

Edit: Basically, I don't understand if you just want the horizontal sway to be reduced, or if you want the horizontal sway to be reduced and the vertical sway to be increased.

Just horizontal sway reduced... and once again I find it "ridiculous" because it feels like it is moving away from realism.

Said it before, but I've found plenty of other ways to make the game very challenging instead of relying on the new sway system.

All I was suggesting is an option to adjust it for single player and/or server admins.

I wrote about this a few posts back...

If it was an option, I would make it so that 80-90% of the sway should be vertical, based on my experience, and the amount of sway when not fatigued would be very minimal. I'd prefer the speed of the sway to slow down the more rested you are as well, to simulate calm breathing, and when tired it would speed up simulating heavy breathing. If you hold your weapon unsupported at "high ready" for a while it starts to shake as your muscles get tired, so a shake that starts out very subtle and gets worse until you lower your weapon and rest would be cool.

So, options:

1. Sway pattern - choose a sway "shape" or pattern which would really just function as a boundary for how far and in which direction the sway would go before it stops. So single players and/or server admins could tweak it to whatever they feel comfortable with. Patterns could simply be set by using different kinds of rectangles, some skinny, some wide, etc, or possibly even a fully customizable one where you just set it, like a 2 by 10 rectangle, for example.

--- note that playing multiplayer would mean the sway is locked into whatever the server is set to, in order to make it fair.

2. Fatigue multiplier - how much fatigue amplifies the sway speed. Maybe a "deadzone" so that it doesn't kick in until a certain minimum level of fatigue.

3. Shake multiplier - same concept as the Fatigue multiplier but with weapon shake in terms of how long your weapon is at the ready unsupported to simulate muscle fatigue.

4. Suppression effects - nearby explosions, lots of incoming rounds, should make your heart rate increase to the point that there would be some weapon shake and tunnel vision (outer edges of screen blurring?). Should be able to adjust how much weapon shake is created by the various things happening.

Good points Rath!

IMO I'd prefer if sway was based on fatigue, like in real life, the more tired you are, holding the gun will move based on your strength and energy, and of course including

some of the noteable points Rath listed.

If we had bracing and tripod deployment in the game then if I braced the weapon then sway should be set to zero, why is the gun moving when the weight of the weapon is on something?

Thats why im bracing the weapon to begin with hypothetically speaking of course, but since their is no bracing which makes absolutely no sense when you have

a "sway system" then that should be BIS's next priority to add the feature to brace your weapon and deploy any tripod mounted weapons in the next patch update.

No matter whether im standing, crouched, or prone, if i brace the weapon against something, and or sit the weapon on something where the weight of the weapon

is resting on that object then the only thing that is going to move the gun is me holding and aiming it.

What would be great is under gameplay options, they should expand that list and give the player more control over their own game then be subject to another's opinion

of what realism is or how the game should be played, this means including sway, then of course if you get on a server and you have no sway set, and another has sway

set then you have the issue of advantage over disadvantage, so I suppose thats ruled out.

Just horizontal sway reduced

Ah, I thought you wanted a corresponding increase in vertical sway for the decrease in horizontal sway. In this case, I just completely disagree with you.

Good points Rath!

IMO I'd prefer if sway was based on fatigue, like in real life, the more tired you are, holding the gun will move based on your strength and energy, and of course including

some of the noteable points Rath listed.

Sway is already based on fatigue. You might just think that the unfatigued sway is too much.

roshnak, I apologize but I clearly meant more than just horizontal sway reduced. If you read my entire post - I went into a lot of detail about how I think it should work, with options of course for people with different opinions.

Unfatigued sway IS too much to those of us who have spent years handling weapons in real life.

Not everyone likes the current sway system, but some do, and I respect that.

I understand Dev build reduced it a bit, that's cool, but it still isn't going to satisfy everyone.

Sure, we can mod the sway to what it should be (which I've already done) - but *not everyone wants to use mods* and I care about this game so I don't want to see people forced into playing a certain way.

I'm just trying to come up with options is all - you just keep disagreeing with everything.

I'm just trying to come up with options is all - you just keep disagreeing with everything.

Uh, no I don't. I already said I would be fine with flipping the sway so it was more vertical and less horizontal. I stated that I don't agree that it's more realistic than the horizontal sway, but I don't care, as long as it makes people happy while maintaining the current gameplay.

I aslo stated that making the onset and recovery of fatigue was probably a good idea.

I also understand your desire for options, but like I said previously, most of the way options are presented in Arma (and the way they always have been) is through it being a highly moddable game, not through the vanilla experience being highly tweakable. In addition to the statements I have previously made about why I, personally, think that having options for different kinds of sway is bad game design, I also have trouble with the statements that various people have made about not wanting to force people to play the game a certain way. While it's true that Arma is more sandboxy than many other shooters, all game design is ultimately about crafting a certain gameplay experience. At its core, game development is about forcing certain kinds of gameplay.

Ok, tell me why you think the current amount of horizontal sway is realistic?

Have someone you know in real life with experience show you how to properly seat the stock of a rifle in the pit of your shoulder, how to properly grip it, and how to control your breath, how to aim it and how proper trigger squeeze works, then come back and tell me what you think. You can't get that experience from the internet, you have to actually do it.

Instead of the current system, there are far better solutions to make shooting more challenging in ArmA while retaining some semblance of realism. Solutions that don't break immersion and even add more depth and fidelity to an already great game. I already posted a few that can be made completely optional. ArmA already has plenty of options and hundreds of possible different gameplay experiences. The single player campaign may be about forcing certain kinds of gameplay, but the beauty of ArmA is that outside of single player, we create our own kinds of gameplay.

It just seems ridiculous the amount of weapon's sway after running 20m has made vanilla ARMA way to difficult.

I have been following this post and I think :-

That the fatigue and sway should be linked to the difficulty settings as a modifier.

Recruit = 0.25

Regular = 0.50

Veteran = 0.75

Elite = 1

So for example if you play on Recruit mode you would be getting only 0.25 of the current fatigue and sway If you play on Elite mode it is at 1 therefore the same as now.

Get this to fix the sway:

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=26266

as seen a few posts back.

Ok, tell me why you think the current amount of horizontal sway is realistic?

Have someone you know in real life with experience show you how to properly seat the stock of a rifle in the pit of your shoulder, how to properly grip it, and how to control your breath, how to aim it and how proper trigger squeeze works, then come back and tell me what you think. You can't get that experience from the internet, you have to actually do it.

The reason I think the horizontal sway is realistic is because I've fired guns before, I ran multiple internet searches to corroborate my experiences and make sure I wasn't talking out of my ass, and then I talked to a guy I know who served in the infantry and has shot a lot more guns than me. There's really no reason to talk down to me.

I have been following this post and I think :-

That the fatigue and sway should be linked to the difficulty settings as a modifier.

Recruit = 0.25

Regular = 0.50

Veteran = 0.75

Elite = 1

So for example if you play on Recruit mode you would be getting only 0.25 of the current fatigue and sway If you play on Elite mode it is at 1 therefore the same as now.

That might work for fatigue, but the problem with linking sway to difficulty is that it actually makes it more difficult for players to learn to deal with the system, since they could encounter up to 4 different levels of sway based on the server they join. It hampers players' ability to form any kind of muscle memory for countering the sway. I think if this was a single player only game it would be fine, but for a multiplayer game I think it's kind of problematic.

The reason I think the horizontal sway is realistic is because I've fired guns before, I ran multiple internet searches to corroborate my experiences and make sure I wasn't talking out of my ass, and then I talked to a guy I know who served in the infantry and has shot a lot more guns than me. There's really no reason to talk down to me.

So when you aim a gun, and when the guy you know aims a gun, you both sway around like drunks?

btw: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162786-Weapon-sway&p=2735759&viewfull=1#post2735759

So when you aim a gun, and when the guy you know aims a gun, you both sway around like drunks?

Are you really asking this question, after the millions times it has been said that the movement of the weapon in arma when not touching the mouse is not supposed to look the same as the movement of a weapon in real life when actively holding it steady?

Handling a weapon and handling a mouse are two very different things. What is important to me is not what looks realistic, but what creates realistic results. Sway is a real phenomenon but any exaggeration of it in game is to make up for things that you cannot simulate with a mouse. For example in game it is assumed that we are always in a perfect stance to shoot, always have our sights perfectly aligned, always have our sights perfectly zeroed, and have an absolutely flawless trigger pull. Those are real challenges a shooter has to focus to control that we don't have to worry about at all in game. So bit of extra sway is used to compensate. But in the end it results in more realistic gameplay. Please try to understand this. I can accept if you think the current sway looks unrealistic, if it doesn't feel realistic or if you want some other system to represent all the mentioned challenges to shooting, but in the end the results created by the sway are more realistic (that is, the time and effort required for a successful shot is more realistic). Do you see maybe a bit of the perspective I am coming from?

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?180382-New-Weaponsway-is-way-to-much-And-holding-breath-bug&p=2732607&viewfull=1#post2732607

Are you really asking this question, after the millions times it has been said that the movement of the weapon in arma when not touching the mouse is not supposed to look the same as the movement of a weapon in real life when actively holding it steady?

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?180382-New-Weaponsway-is-way-to-much-And-holding-breath-bug&p=2732607&viewfull=1#post2732607

Really? A million times?

Exactly why I am coming up with *options* to change it and make it more realistic...

Exactly why I am coming up with *options* to change it and make it more realistic...

I feel like you didn't read the entire post

Oh I read it.

The problem is when you aren't moving your mouse and your weapon is up the view appears as if your "cheek is welded" to the weapon, but in reality if your cheek is welded it doesn't sway like that. There isn't a separation between "having your weapon up but your cheek isn't welded" and "your weapon is up and you weld your cheek in preparation to shoot."

Sure you could say the new system of fighting the weapon sway IS your guy getting proper grip, cheek weld, and breath control, but that breaks immersion for me and a lot of others because it isn't that annoying of a process in real life and honestly there are far better ways to implement it.

Is it so hard for you guys to understand that a lot of the ArmA community wants more realism, more options? We understand and respect that the other part of the community likes it as is.

Sure you could say the new system of fighting the weapon sway IS your guy getting proper grip, cheek weld, and breath control, but that breaks immersion for me and a lot of others because it isn't that annoying of a process in real life and honestly there are far better ways to implement it.

This right here is what I'm looking for from you. Now I know you understand the point I referred you to, but you disagree with the methodology. That's a view I can understand and accept. There was none of this display of understanding our side of the argument when you said "does your gun sway like a drunk in real life?" You took the argument back several pages with a sarcastic remark like that. Let's try to stick with "I understand why the weapon sways more in the game than it does real life, but I find that method immersion-breaking and annoying."

It wasn't sarcasm, it is simply the best way I can think of to describe it.

But you knew very well neither of them sway their guns like drunks when shooting in real life. Who would? Call it playing dumb, call it sarcasm, call it whatever, that's not my point. Drawing that direct parallel between the game and real life when Roshnak and others have already explained it (which you clearly understood) just brings us back to square 1.

But you knew very well neither of them sway their guns like drunks when shooting in real life. Who would? Call it playing dumb, call it sarcasm, call it whatever, that's not my point. Drawing that direct parallel between the game and real life when Roshnak and others have already explained it (which you clearly understood) just brings us back to square 1.

No, I don't know very well that neither of them sway their guns like drunks when shooting in real life... Maybe they do? He said that is what it is like when he shoots.

The *results* of the added challenge are realistic in that long range engagements aren't easy.

The *visual representation* of the new system is not realistic and it is immersion-breaking.