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Ingeneer

WWII politics

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Inspired LibMod topic.

Offtop will be here, if moderators haven't nothing against.

---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------

lecholas wrote

My grandfather with his two brothers, my grandmother (as a nurse) were in Home Army (Armia Krajowa - Polish resistance) during WWII. They operated on Polish grounds that were captured in 1939 by the Soviets. (Don't forget that from 1939 to 1941 USSR were allied with the Germans). A lot of my grandfather's commanders were executed, assasinated, or imprisoned by the Soviets (was it NKVD, Russian partisants, regular army or Polish units subordinated to the Soviets (Armia Ludowa, Ludowe Wojsko Polskie)) when USSR started to conquer those regions of Poland for the second time, in 1944. After the war the most of the commanders (and a lot of officers and soldiers) of Home Army were sentenced to prison or executed in so called judical murders. Quite a few of members of the Polish resistance (but also Balts for example) remained in conspiracy, frequently in forests till the death of Stalin. The last of so called Cursed Soldiers was killed in 1963 near the city where I live (you can compare it to the Japeneese soldiers hidding on some forgotten islands on the Pacific Ocean).

The history of the IIWW in the Middle-Eastern Europe (and the period after it) could not be objectively researched in Middle-Eastern countries untill 1990 (e.g. until this year the official version of history said that it was the Germans who were responsible for the Katyń massacre and teachers who tought their pupils the real version were repressed) and the history was replaced by propaganda. The most of Western historians either weren't interested in it or couldn't get the needed sources (e.g. they couldn't just go to Katyń to make their researches, they couldn't talk to the ex-Cursed Soldiers who were hidding their identity in fear of repressions etc.).

For the Poles, especially for those from the eastern part of Poland (but not only for them, let's ask the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Hungarians, the Romanians, the Fins, the Balts; see for example this link in wikipedia) it's not an easy answer to the question who was the greater enemy during the IIWW - was it the Third Reich or the Soviet Union. And what was worse - making alliances with the Nazis or the Soviets. The nicest way wolud be not to ally with any of those forces but that meant being alone between two great powers willing to crush you (the Warsaw Uprising can be regarded as aimed against the Nazis in the military respect and against the Soviets in political respect; it ended tragically for the Polish resistance and civilian population of Warsaw). I don't have the answer for that. But surely seeing USSR as the allie and liberator as opposed to the Third Reich as the enemy and oppressor is TOTALLY untrue. I won't continue this topic here. But I encourage everybody to read more about the IIWW in the Middle-Eastern Europe. And I don't mean wikipedia. I mean books. Historical books written by accademics (especially those published after 1989).

As it goes for Staszów region I've already looked for some photos of the Holy Spirit's Church in it's prewar form but couldn't find any. I'll ask if anyone has such photos on the Staszów's forum. There are also some sites with old photos of the Polish cities and towns which doesn't have any interesting photos from Staszów right now but are constantly updated with the new ones so you can look at them from time to time.

Here's one of such sites:

National Digital Archive

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 PM ----------

let's ask the Czechs, the Slovaks

When Hitler attach to Reich Sudets, when he began invasion to Chechoslovakia, USSR asked Poland to let to pass throught territory of Poland to help to this state. They didn't agree.

When uprising in Slovakia started, Soviet forces made everything to help them. And payd a big price for it in Dukla and Dolina.

---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

let's ask the Hungarians

Yes, for Horthy's fashist Hungary - yes. Theyr goverment was good Hitler's friend. In 1938 they recieve part of Slovakia (Vienne arbitrage) and in 1940 - part of Rumanian Transilvania. Also they took part in invasion to Yugoslavia and in 1941 to Soviet Union. THEY CAME TO US.

---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 PM ----------

let's ask the Romanians

When Civil War in Russia started - they take Bessarabia from our country. We just returned it to USSR. But Antonesku had Napoleon's plans - to take territory of our Motherland until Odessa. Everetime there's somebody who like to take another's territory :)

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------

let's ask the Fins

Most complicated question. The history of soviet-finnish wars wasn't started in 1939. It started in 1918 as Russian and Finnish Civil War. After victory of comunists in Russia and Mannerheim's forces in Finland began war on the frontier. It was 20-s and begin of 30-s.

Ofcourse, USSR start war with Finland in 1939. And it was his crime. Not mine :) or by my country. Also note that we have a lot of finnish people here in Russia.

And even altought was very hard siege in Leningrad in 1941-1944, and it was partly finnish siege, we and finns learned to excuse one to another and started to live in peace.

Anyway - they was respectable, brave and strong enemy.

But surely seeing USSR as the allie and liberator as opposed to the Third Reich as the enemy and oppressor is TOTALLY untrue.

As you have to know - Krakow had to be destroyed. Total demolition was planned.

Control question - who saved it from explosion?

Edited by Ingeneer

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We jumped into WWII mainly because Hitler promised some of the lost territories back. And I wouldn't call Horthy a fascist, nor "good friend" of Hitler.

Quotes from Wikipedia:

"...Hungary received more than 100,000 Polish refugees after the German invasion and even established schools for Polish children[1][2]. The Hungarian army also refused to take part in the battle of the Warsaw Uprising against the Polish insurgents. Hungarians who took a part in the Warsaw Uprising on the German side, often offered the fighting Poles weapons and food."

"Anne McCormick, a foreign correspondent for the The New York Times wrote in defense of Hungary as the last refuge of Jews in Europe, declaring that “as long as they exercised any authority in their own house, the Hungarians tried to protect the Jews.â€[12]"

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Yugoslavia, Slovakia, Chech was not part of Hungary. They was in Austrian-Hungary Empire, it's something else.

Transilvania was always disputable territory.

hitler-horthy.jpg

Two sweethearts

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I'll quote myself:

And what was worse - making alliances with the Nazis or the Soviets. [...] I don't have the answer for that. But surely seeing USSR as the allie and liberator as opposed to the Third Reich as the enemy and oppressor is TOTALLY untrue."

I didn't say that neither Czechs, Slovaks (BTW Slovakia was the third agressor of Poland in 1939 next to Germany and USSR) or Hungarians, Romanians or Balts were without a sin. I didn't say that Poland, UK or USA (carpet raids of German and Japan civilian targets, nuclear bomb) was without a sin either. It all boils down to the scale. The Middle-Eastern Europe was the theater of war between two major powers: the Third Reich and the Soviet Union (which at first, from 1939 to 1941, were allies). The nations which were between these two powers had to make their choice. There were three options. To make an alliance with the Third Reich, to make an alliance with the Soviet Union, or to rely on the Western Allies and to fight with both Germans and Soviets.

As far as I read in most of the Middle-Estern European countries there were supporters of every of those options. On the German side there were Baltic or Ukrainian SS units, the Russians had ROA and RONA, Slovakians had Tiso's state, Romanians and Hungarians were for the most of the war allies of Germans. In the main libmod topic someone enumered even more nations that fought along with Germans (some Spainish people, some Belgians, French...). Those were allies of a great evil power. There's no doubt about it.

But let's consider the other options. Making an alliance with the Soviet Union. There were a lot of supporters of that option. Because of the USSR's politics the most of the soldiers from countries different than the Soviet Union who wanted to fight the Germans fought in Soviet formations. But of course there was Polish LWP, "Chechoslovaks", in the second half of 1944 Romanians who fought the Germans together with Russians. My point is that theye were also allies of a great evil power.

Both the options weren't good choices. The Russians, as well as the Germans wanted to conquer these countries (eventually the Soviets conquered them for almost 50 years). Both the Soviets and the Germans to reach their goals killed the elites of these countries (officers, univeristy profesors, policemen etc.). Both the powers commited unimaginable warcrimes and genocide (the Germans were inspired by rasist ideology, and the Soviets by the class struggle ideology and pragmatics, but the numbers of their victims are comparable).

But there was a third way the "clean" one. The third way was not to ally with anyone (and rely on Western allies). But they failed their allies (I don't judge here wether they could not fail or not, that's not our topic). On the example of Poland we can see that the Home Army (one of the biggest if not the biggest underground army in the WWII Europe) which fought for the Poland's independence was treated as an enemy both by the Soviets and by the Germans. The victory of any of the Powers meant the failure and occupation. This option is the "nicest". I like it the most. You don't ally with any evil power (though, as I said above, Western countries weren't without a sin during WWII; but they e.g. didn't have concentration camps or guags, you can't compare camps for Japanees in the USA to them). Unfortunaltely this option was not effective. You could call it: fight and die with honor but without a hope.

That was my point.

And tpM is right. The Hungarians helped the Poles not only during the Warsaw Uprising. In Poland usually the Hungarian ocupation was a bliss. They protected local population from Germans from Soviets and in Wolynia from UPA (Ukrainians). They also sold weapons to the Polish resistance and sometimes gave it away for free.

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The Russians, as well as the Germans wanted to conquer these countries (eventually the Soviets conquered them for almost 50 years). Both the Soviets and the Germans to reach their goals killed the elites of these countries (officers, univeristy profesors, policemen etc.). Both the powers commited unimaginable warcrimes and genocide (the Germans were inspired by rasist ideology, and the Soviets by the class struggle ideology and pragmatics, but the numbers of their victims are comparable).

USSR returned to Poland losted territories - Pomerania, part of Prussia (wich was not really polish), Gdansk, and also returned from himselves Sandomirz.

USSR helped to restore destroyed cities.

Strange occupation, isn't it?

---------- Post added at 04:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------

But there was a third way the "clean" one. The third way was not to ally with anyone (and rely on Western allies).

Allies, who save Denitz goverment. Do you know, that they save in action full nazis formation?

For which targets? And englishmans didn't let to arest 'em

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 PM ----------

"Anne McCormick, a foreign correspondent for the The New York Times wrote in defense of Hungary as the last refuge of Jews in Europe, declaring that “as long as they exercised any authority in their own house, the Hungarians tried to protect the Jews.â€[12]"

You have to be proud for them, really, but

The government passed the First Jewish Law in 1938. The law established a quote system to limit Jewish involvement in the Hungarian economy.
The same was in Bulgaria.

Govermant was satellite of Hitler's politics. People - somebody yes, somebody no.

But Bulgarian soldiers wasn't in USSR with war. It's the difference.

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Well, if you don't accept that USSR occupied Poland I don't know what can I say more.

And yes, USSR 'gave' Poland some German land, but at the same time it took away from Poland a lot of lands in the East (Wolyn, Podole, Podlasie, including two major cities - Lwów and Wilno - if anyone could argue that those are not Polish cities that could be Lithuanians and Ukrainians, not the Soviets, who occupied both the Lithuanians and the Ukrainians). Helped to restore destroyed cities? When the Germans occupied Poland they also restored destroyed cities. Why? Because, just as the Russians after war, they were rulers on those teritories. They considered themselves at home. So they cared about their lands as they could. (There's a Russian proverb: Kura ne ptica, Polsza ne zagranica).

And Sandomierz. That gave me a bit of laugh. Look where Sandomierz was on a prewar map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/RzeczpospolitaII.png

(look to the south- W E S T from the center of the country ;).

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But there was a third way the "clean" one. The third way was not to ally with anyone (and rely on Western allies).

Hmm.. regardless I think we could not have succeeded in this without equipment support from Germany.

Sometimes one has to balance between bad and worse...

And the fact is that there never has been that much feeling of shame being on that side in here because people recognize how the status was back then.

On a side note, did you know that Christopher Lee (the actor) wanted to enlist as volunteer in Finnish ranks in winter war?

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answer to Polish friend

my family also suffered after WW2, but not all is black-white here, as in history left-side movements were executed before WW2 , "the rich" in 30's treated others badly and it cause "anger of lower class" later

Home Army fought for Poland "from 1939", not all wanted back to "very small very rich and mass poverty and super strong church sticking hands everywhere", not everyone wanted to have Poland from 1939 back again, some wanted "other, new country, without the rich half-military-dictature, poverty, homeless, lack of social care, lack of medical care"

not everyone is catholic , i prefer social care, than golden painted church and fat priest in car when i would be thin of hunger without boots

your grandfathers had problems with "People's army" ? other people grandfathers had problem with being poor, deprived of free school , deprived of dentist, doctor, had to eat after someone cause they were not born in "rich house"

there were political tensions in our country too, rich was small group, poor wanted other country , simply before 1939 some of them where imprisoned by the rich, remember Bereza Kartuska ?http://www.eioba.pl/a86034/bereza_kartuska_polski_sanacyjny_oboz_koncentracyjny

world before WW2 was completely different, in USSR Stalin murdered many Russians , Ukrainians etc.

west countries (including Poland than) had no social care at all, had no employee care at all etc.

it was other world you know today, if you judge that world to todays rules, you make mistake,

for some people "socialism, communism" meant : first boots, first school, first electricity, first doctor, first state care, first flat, first dignity

in today's world when you hurt - you can call ambulance, you can go to doctor, do you think it was like that in 1938 ? do you believe that people walking without shoes done this cause they loved nature so much ? do you believe lack of read/write (analfabets) was cause someone was lazy ?

previously people were not listening each other , but shooting each other, cause "rich" were used to live in system where "because he is born, he is super and has rights and others must obey him"

feudal way of thoughts "other must obey me cause i am from nobleman family", people hated each other, not respected others , and were afraid of each other back then and it caused all evil from that time

usual Russian not had idea what NKVD do, usual Russian soldier was afraid of NKVD as we

usual man from Russia get Mosin and was "giving blood" without knowledge what his leader done, usual soldier or Red Army had no idea about Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, usual soldier only knew SS burned village and raped daughters

usual Russian afraid NKVD so much, that it is unimaginable today, human life meant nothing, Stalin murdered 100 or 1000 times more USSR citizens than us

Liberation mod is mod about Soviet army from WW2, cause usual Soviet soldier had no idea about what NKVD do to other people nations , usual soldier had seen crimes of SS and he was noone for his own gov. if Stalin murdered a lot of his own generals , colonels - when Germans attacked, he had no officers, cause he imprisoned and shot dead his own army elite, cause "being in rule" was his main point

Hitler was voted, Stalin no and it makes difference , one murdered millions in gas chambers, other shoot in head few thousands , makes 1000 times difference

answer to Russians

you know, you were lied by your propaganda in school, in books, in movies, you were not learned in school about facts

thats why you think you came here to sacrifice blood for other people freedom

i don't blame "Russian soldier"

Soviet soldier had no idea what his government do

Soviet soldier and later society had no idea

look at (comparison ) USA, they thought (thanx to propaganda, movies, teachers) they fight only for freedom of others, while in many causes they fight for oil and wealth of the rich companies

while CIA made some very ugly acts

usual american had no idea about how we lived there "for real", he saw movies when "bad commie" tortures someone

he not seen movie about "free medical care, free university, free flat"

why ?

cause he can be homeless and should not say "hey, i want also free medical treatment, if this guy has palace , 10 cars, he can share with me"

the same to USSR

many Russians died fighting with Hitler criminals, 99.999% of them never imagined what Stalin decisions had done here

what would be reaction of usual Russian if in his newspaper , school, movie he would see "we invaded, we shoot some of them, we took some of their property"

usual Russian is normal human being, he would be angry as we

thats why school, books, movies show it to you other way

good that we have internet, we can talk here

look at f-ru posts about Grom addon (Arma1 section, http://flashpoint.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=43583 ), sory, what YAC addon has to XVII century ? nothing

what it has to our intervention ? does usual russian has idea that 75 % of people are against ? but gov. "do what they want"

does average russian has idea about it ? no

what this addon has to what they wrote here demeaning other nations ?

nothing

what matter of

many things are just fed by propaganda, like in US, like in USSR like also in my country

my mother was in 1968 in one coffe, Soviet soldier held and kept by KGB officers were saying they go to stop Facist revolt in Germany

they had no idea they go to Czechoslovakia

they really believed that "Hitler sons raised", probably they get shock when saw not-Germans

you are man wise with open mind, i hope you see that you were lied in past

like some americans were lied thinking they "bring freedom" in Cold War

look at example of news about "crimes in Yugoslavia" , do you remember when TV shown "serbs killed albanians"

heh, later it was "fixed" "serbs killed BY albanians"

BY - makes difference, right ?

1939 is fact, Hitler and Stalin had agreement

Stalin's NKVD was evil, not doubt

but for evey wise man here Stalin is not Russia, NKVD is not Red Army soldiers

like in past my grandfathers told that they saw one Wehrmaht soldier who gave food to people

cause he was forced to be soldier, SSman killed girls, WH soldier gave piece of bread

makes difference

the same to Katyn

NKVD killed innocent people cause they were "too much educated, officers, policeman"

while Russian soldier fought "Nazi criminal" and there were actions where usual Red army fought hand in hand with our Home Army

for average Russian enemy was nazi German

for NKVD 1939-1953 enemy was Polish officer or well educated man (not farmer, not worker) or simply Polish patriot

USSR returned to Poland losted territories - Pomerania, part of Prussia (wich was not really polish), Gdansk, and also returned from himselves Sandomirz.

USSR helped to restore destroyed cities.

Strange occupation, isn't it?

no, USSR pushed us to German territories and now we have problems with property and ownership on some lands

USSR pushed us on Germans changing borders , USSR pushed us on lands that were Polish, but in year 800-1000

in year 1200 those lands were German and Poland since XIII to end of XVIII century looked different

before war we had 390 000 km, after 310 000, so "by math" USSR took 80 000 km comparing to 1938

invasion on PL in 1939 is fact, no matter what teacher said from book he kept in hands

executions are fact, no matter what movies shown

just like Tsar was bad treating usual people, the same was with next gov.

as in some countries you can hear about Polish death camps... while in real we were punished by execution of whole family and house burned when one of family helped Jew

camps were built here, cause Jews escaped from other countries and lived here in PL

other countries were not so helping , other countries had no capital punishment for helping Jew

we were under occupation and we couldn't stop Germans building there camps , but from some Americans i heard about "Polish death camps" , while in fact it were "German death camps on occupied territory of Poland where a lot of Jews lived", some of those camps were on pre-WW2 German territory and because of borders move NOW are on Polish territory (after 1945)

just like usual US citizen has no idea what CIA done in 60's, 70's, 80's in South America, people have no idea about civil wars started when "pro-social" gov. won elections etc.

some countries like in Africa Sierra Leone are kept in chaos to have better benefits for big mining companies etc.

many lies feed people , too many

Edited by vilas

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Dear vilas,

you love to use collective arguments. To attack your opponent with a lot of non connected sentences to leave him without a major thesis he can argue with. And you love to bring non important things. What has Yac's Grom addon to do with it? You said it by yourself. Nothing. Why you mention it?

I can't argue with all non connected statements you wrote, so I have to choose some of them which are important in my opinion.

You say that I judge prewar Poland from today's point of view? Well, I'd say it's the other way round. You do it. You say, from today's perspective, that prewar Poland was bad because it didn't provide social care etc, etc. Let's agree for a moment that social care is good. Compare the prewar Poland not to today's countries but to other prewar countries. Let's agree for a moment that disproportion in welfare is a bad thing. Compare disproportion in welfare in prewar Poland to other prewar countries not to today's countries. Do the same with regards to mentality of reach people, etc, etc. But remember then that Poland was a very young and poor country it couldn't affort social care (wich actually is totally ineffective way of spending public money, but let's not go into this discussion). You think that prewar Poland's neighbours had better social care? Maybe in USSR? Right?:j:

I know this attitude you present, that simple Russians were heroes who fought to take a revange for their families etc. The truth is much more complicated. USSR was a big country. It had very diferent citizens from a lot of nations. Some of them were, as you say honest simple people (but remember that USSR system produced so called homo sovieticus - honesty wasn't promoted by it). Some of USSR's citizens were almost wild. It depended on commanders who was promoted and who not, which units were used on the first line, which were not. It is a fact that the Red Army commited a lot of warcrimes, raped not only German women but women of all 'liberated' countries, killed resistance members of all 'liberated' countries, killed and tortured the 'nobles', 'rich ones' (the method of distinguishing the rich one i.e. bad one from the simple-honest-poor-good one was by looking at his hands - if they were white it meant that the person is to be killed, deported to siberia etc.). A lot of those crimes were commited without an order, spountanously. Of course there were noble exceptions (just as on the German side). I for example read about a Red Army soldier who warned a Home Army patrol and saved it from an ambush prepared by Peoples Army (Armia Ludowa - Polish pro-communistic resistance movement). But we are not talking about exceptions. We are talkin generally.

As a sidenote. Some of Soviet soldiers were very poor and were looting the 'liberated' countries a lot, because they didn't see such a welfare in their lifetime before. That was hidden by the censorship as much as possible. Do you know the photo of putting a Soviet flag on the Reichstag? On original photo one of the soldiers has two watches. It was 'photoshopped' ;) by the censors.

Original picture

'Photoshopped' one

usual Russian not had idea what NKVD do, usual Russian soldier was afraid of NKVD as we

Don't you see some inconsistency in this? If usual Russian didn't know what NKVD did why he was as afraid of it as "we"? The only possible answer is: because he knew what NKVD did as good as "we". He only was doublethinking because in the USSR even thinking that the system is wrong was forbiden and was a crime.

Hmm.. regardless I think we could not have succeeded in this without equipment support from Germany.

Sometimes one has to balance between bad and worse...

And the fact is that there never has been that much feeling of shame being on that side in here because people recognize how the status was back then.

That's what I said. The third option was 'clean' but commited to failure. It was the best one from the moral point of view, but not from the pragmatic point of view. Weather you should choose the moral one or pragmatic one is out of scope of this discussion I think ;).

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because i try to look from other site, thats why i write about US, poor vs. rich , USSR etc.

argument about YAC GROM addon came from fact "who first mixed politics with addons" but it was not clearly said

but Bereza is also fact, "disappearing" left-pro-social activists is also fact ... Zaolzie

concerning social care - i have no idea how was it in France, Sweden that days or even German Nazi gov.

if you say we were poor and thats why we couldn't afford, than compare to USSR which raised after Tsar gov. , people under Tsar really lived like in middle ages , "kolhoz" gave them school, electricity, hospital etc.

concerning NKVD - houses with too thin walls to allow neighbor listen to other neighbor and etc.

maybe Soviets simply not realized how we lived here ?

from one terror (Tsar) they fallen upon NKVD

when people will cut off all lies, we can build "better world"

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but Bereza is also fact, "disappearing" left-pro-social activists is also fact ... Zaolzie

Compare it to Holodomor or Great Purge. Is there a diffrence?

if you say we were poor and thats why we couldn't afford, than compare to USSR which raised after Tsar gov. , people under Tsar really lived like in middle ages , "kolhoz" gave them school, electricity, hospital etc.

You can't be serious? Do you know what the people who lived between the Soviet Union and Poland (i.e. the Poles, Lithuanians, Belarussians, Ukrainians, Chechs (I mean Chech settlers in those regions)) hoped for when the Germans came in 1941? That they may be not worse than the Soviets (who occupied the territories since 1939) but they will maybe disband the kolhozes. They wished it. Why do you think it was?

maybe Soviets simply not realized how we lived here ?

Yes, most of them didn't realize that. Why? Because they weren't allowed to travel to see for themselves.

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what is difference between "forbidden to travel" and "have no money to travel and school so no able to read press" in final effect ? the same in my opinion

homo sovieticus... what argument, Soviets as other kind of humanity... than maybe homo americanus, in English there are no translation of "butny" maybe "bighead over self confident of his value" "rats race" "without solidarity and conscience, be best - f** the rest" "we bring you freedom on our bombs" "althought i am 4% of world population, i will rule 94%" etc.

and finally we: homo catholicus like some of "moher" "radyjo" with way of thinking "kissing, naked woman baaad, better poverty than lack of church on every street, forbid everything except giving money to church, suffer for jesus, no fun in life cause it is sin" - whole my Polish part of family hunting "communism" and in the same time expecting better free medical care ?

you want to focus that "soviets" are other type of human ?

every society is shaped by :

- conditions around like economy and government

- propaganda

- culture philosophy, religion, traditional values

- consciousness, awareness of how world looks around (if someone is not ignorant)

and you cannot say about "type of human" cause people living in different conditions will be different with different aims

even simply comparison from life as usual man and vegetarian when it comes "how precious is life of cow" or comparison of person who raised in non-religious society attitude to sex activity (that this is something which not hurt and demean someone), compared to religious ("lachociÄ…g" issue in culture, "woman who do it with lips is dirty and unworthy" "doing it with lips is demeaning humanity and ugliest crime" - i met a lot of such philosophy around ) gives result showing that people are other but not "worse" "better"

i met in life 2 or 3 woman which said "you like this ? you are sick bastard" , what "church" makes of people...

if you wanna prove "they are other kind of wild humans" than you follow way of those who built camps

cause we for others can be also - sick kind of humans and culture, for many people from west our "problems" are pathetic

don't use "homo anything" , there were people living under tsar regime, later under Stalin regime and thats all

if you wanna moan about "our situation" post-WW2 i can tell you about my mother

because we lived in Vilnius (family) than in september 1939 it was taken by USSR troops

someone was arrested, other someone was shot dead, other one was sent to Siberia

people get forced USSR citizenship paper

war ended, my family couldn't back to PL in 40's, was kept in USSR, mother was born on USSR territory (before 1945 Poland)

when finally they let us leave USSR and back to Poland, here we were treated like enemies "ruskies" cause mother in documents had "born - USSR"

poles thought they are "so brave" to do some comments to my mother

what is most pathetic - my grandparents found in USSR by force in sept 1939, were held, imprisoned nearly 20 years and later were treated here as "ruskies enemies"

not like "victims"

catholic example of love brotherhood meaning ? kochaj bliźniego swego...

was it her fault that my grandmother and my grandfather (mother side) were imprisoned in USSR ? Judas Priest song - between hammer and the anvil ?

WW2 was dirty, NKVD is for me equal SS NSDAP

Stalin (Georgian Jugashvyly ) was the same criminal as Hitler

but Russians not, they not voted, Hitler was voted (100% aryan looking nordic blonde by the way as Goebels and some more which blinded eyes of people )

Edited by vilas

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Dear Vilas, thank you for sharing with us your stream of consciousness but I really don't see a way to argue with it.

"An argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition." (source: Monty Python's Flying Circuss episode Twenty-nine). Your impressions aren't a connected series of statements to extablish a definite position.

Also I'm really under impression that you attack not my position, which I try to define clearly, but your imaginations about who I am and your frustrations from RL. That's not the way to discuss.

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"Anne McCormick, a foreign correspondent for the The New York Times wrote in defense of Hungary as the last refuge of Jews in Europe, declaring that “as long as they exercised any authority in their own house, the Hungarians tried to protect the Jews.â€[12]"

The Jews ended up dumped in the Danube or deported to Auswitch by the time 1944 came around, so you'll forgive people for not giving the regime much credit.

USSR returned to Poland losted territories - Pomerania, part of Prussia (wich was not really polish), Gdansk, and also returned from himselves Sandomirz.

USSR helped to restore destroyed cities.

Strange occupation, isn't it?

And the USSR took territories from Poland in the east. And waited on the river bank while the Nazis destroyed Warsaw.

I don't see how this is indicating anything but that the Soviets were another imperial power destroying and building when it suited their interests.

Edited by maturin

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answer to Polish friend

answer to Russians

I agree with a lot of your words.

---------- Post added at 10:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 PM ----------

And the USSR took territories from Poland in the east.

Which before was taken by I Rzechpospolita and II Rzechpospolita Polska before (first time from Belaya Rus and Litwa (not nowdays Litwania), second - from destroyed Russian Empire). It was always was colonies for Poland, Wshodnie Kresy.

What i have to say. The history of Polish-Russian politics had a lot of bad times - Polish ocupation of Malorossia and Belorus, occupation of Moskowia, after that several divisions of Poland and Russian occupation of Poland ( I mean end of 18 - 20 century), war in 1920-es, war of 1939.

BUT

We have to learn to respect each other, to understand as possible and not to send "historical invoices". It's the only way for great people. Whant to be great - just be, as i say usually.

And... I like Poland :) Couse i like its movies (Pan Volodiewsy, Potok and Stara Basn), its culture and a lot of other things.

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I know this attitude you present, that simple Russians were heroes who fought to take a revange for their families etc. The truth is much more complicated.

No no. I think for the most part it's that simple.

Same reason the British fought.

Politicians may have been talking a big hoohah but most people just wanted to kill Germans because they hated them for what they did.

At least that's what it was like here. I assume the Russians felt the same.

Revenge was the primary motivator round these parts, and the Russians got it a lot worse than we did.

Edited by Baff1

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[/color]

Which before was taken by I Rzechpospolita and II Rzechpospolita Polska before (first time from Belaya Rus and Litwa (not nowdays Litwania), second - from destroyed Russian Empire). It was always was colonies for Poland, Wshodnie Kresy.

No doubt. And much of Poland was once a colony of Russia and Poland once conquered Kiev.

So it's back and forth and I have no idea which side has invaded the other more often. Both sides were irredentist and Stalin imposed Communism on Poland in defiance of a referendum for a mixed economy precisely so the pattern of invasions would stop once and for all.

Nowadays Poland and Russia seem only to remember the times they were invaded, not when it was the other way around.

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Nowadays Poland and Russia seem only to remember the times they were invaded

I repeat

We have to learn to respect each other, to understand as possible and not to send "historical invoices". It's the only way for great people. Whant to be great - just be, as i say usually.

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And waited on the river bank while the Nazis destroyed Warsaw.

In that times soviet and polish armies (Wojsko Polsko) wasn't able to move forward after previous operation. Note - headed by pole Konstantin Rokossowsky.

Or you think that armies can attack continiously several month?

Armies have to be supplied by fresh stuff, ammunitions, railroads had to be restored etc. :j:

In bloody Dukla we tryed and payd very big price for it.

http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/Military_dukla_pass.htm

The original Soviet battle plan did not include entering Slovakia via Dukla Pass. The Soviet troops were originally proceeding east to west across a broad front, from Ukraine into Poland and Ukraine, through Hungary to Slovakia. Troops in Poland were expected to continue their westward assault towards Germany. The Dukla operation was quickly conceived in order to support the SNP partisan uprising in Slovakia. The Soviet and Czechoslovak armies expected to take the pass quickly. However, the help they expected in terms of rebel troops of the East Slovak Army Corps did not arise. The partisan uprising was quickly being suppressed by German troops and the Slovak Army was disbanded. Consequentially the battle lasted for 50 days. The pass was taken on October 6th, but vicious fighting persisted for another month. The German 254th retreated through Presov, Levoca and Poprad. More than 46,000 Soviet, Czechoslovak and German soldiers perished. Over 93,000 Soviet and Czechoslovak troops were wounded1. A large military cemetery in Svidnik contains the graves of over 9,000 Soviet soldiers. As the Germans retreated, they burned what remained of Svidnik.

Note that in this operation our troops was ready to move. But it's the example what it is to change plans due to unexpected uprisings.

Edited by Ingeneer

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concerning Warsaw Uprising 44, you not know something more important (once again back to what was taught officially)

and now you will be very surprised after this:

Stalin forbidden alliance planes to land on USSR territory

British, American, Canadian planes could drop weapons and ammo for Warsaw, but they needed to refuel

Stalin forbidden

150 000-200 000 Poles died not because Russians waited

but because one Georgian with mustashe - Jugashvyly aka Stalin - forbade by his decision to land to refuel

Warsaw Uprising would been other way, but noone here dare to think that USSR may forbid to land

that was another crime which we cannot forget (Stalin crime, not "Russians"), noone here wanted spoil Russian blood, simply we expected some STENs and 9mm ammo from air

while those planes simply couldn't refuel and because of WW2 transport airplanes range, they couldn't go to drop equipment and back to London or France

probably you had no knowledge about it , because simply it was not taught , it was prescribed in "west" books only

concerning Konstantin Rokossowsky, you know, many Polish-named people were serving USSR, but they not cared for us, as they were only USSR citizens with Polish name

as nowadays there are people with -ski, name which live in other countries and etc.

another reason for not helping Warsaw Uprising (why they couldn't send us PPSH ? by the river ?)

was also Stalin decisions following Katyn idea

Katyn idea was "to kill all Polish patriots, all people loving pre-ww2 Poland, all high educated romantics"

in Katyn, Charkov etc. ca. 15 000 was murded, but nation had 37 000 000

what to do with the rest ?

rest uprised, so... Stalin decided to not help "let they bleed"

if Soviet army was on one side of river, if Poles held other side of river, what was the problem to send some boats full of Mosins, PPSH, Degtaryevs and bandages and morphine ?

for us Stalin = almost Hitler , there are so many decisions of him, that people simple not know

also for Russians Stalin is someone who raised country from middle-aged cerkov+tsar dark ages to superpower with atom bombs, MiG17, T54, AK etc.

for us Stalin is simply mass murder

Russians look from their point of view "he killed 30 000 000 of us" from our point of view , even 150 000 killed is "150 000 too much"

look - was it real problem to :

> allow US, Can, UK planes refuel behind front line ?

> sent few boats with PPSh by the river 300-400 m ? (if not Stalin who stopped offensive)

> allow some Polish-east commando cross river, we had "special forces" in Polish under Soviet army , some 44'specnaz ?

i don't think

when Soviet front moved forward ? when uprising went down, than Stalin decided/allowed to move troops, when all Poles bleed to death, than he allowed to move forward

not Soviet-Polish ("pople's army") troops stopped to take rest, Stalin stopped them to kill Polish patriots

according to historical sources USSR-PL troops reached Vistula river at end of July, Germans were leaving Warsaw, Soviet planes were flying over Warsaw and THAN Poles decided to uprise

believing in sources - it was all Stalin's decision to stop ANY HELP to us

because of "propaganda" at the end of uprising, when Germans crushed us, Stalin allowed to drop here few boxes with PPSh and probably about this you can read in not-west sources

it was "propaganda" decision, when all was almost capitulating

700 years old city, nearly 200 000 people - all lost cause one evil man (ex tsar ohrana agent) hated us

looking at "proofs" - Germans had weaker garnison, Soviets had offensive in progress

if not Stalin decisions - who know, maybe war ended at March 1945 ?

this city could be than (August) easy captured by Polish-Soviet forces

but maybe Stalin wanted to "concentrate" German forces on killing Warsaw to weak them ?

even if yes, than NOT ALLOWING alliance planes to refuel, not sending few platoons and few boats by river was crime

we simply in 44 ran out of ammo and thats why it ended this way, we simply had no bullets after some weeks of fight, while few kilometers away stood big army, while US, Can, UK planes and pilots just waited for possibility to refuel and back to UK

if Soviet army couldn't really move (which i doubt knowing Stalin decisions) than... what would be a problem to allow to land some B-17 ? what would be a problem to send some boxes of PPSH in August, not at the end of September , few days before capitulation (intel knew all)

by the way , do you know that Poles were ONLY country which produced weapons during occupation for larger scale ?

other nations "afraided"

we , although we were under much stronger occupation than for example France had (concerning death punishment, burning villages, atrocities, control, no property respect and etc.), we lost 10 more man than France , although our population was half of French , we produced this :

Blyskawica.jpg

our own construction by our engineers, ca. 750 made , other weapons were also made

concerning "losses"

country on 1000 citizens /total casualties number

________________________________

PL -220 / 6 028 000

USSR - 124 / 20 000 000

Yugosławia -108 / 1 706 000

Greek - 70 / 558 000

Holand - 22 / 200 000

France -13 / 653 000

UK - 8 / 375 000

Norway - 3 / 8 600

USA - 1,4 / 405 000

when voices from west say "why for Poland and USSR history is so important"

THATS WHY

every forth/fifth Pole was killed

every eight Russian was killed

while in France only every 76'th French killed, in US every 714-th killed

if your family has 8 man - in France you could loose noone , in USSR 1 person , in Poland 2 :(

there is NO family in PL nor Russia - whose relatives were not killed by Germans, there is no :/

those people who ask "why the hell they still say about history" now should know

in 8 people family, we lost 2, in 100 persons family you (west) may not lost anyone , makes difference

just like those "Stalin repressions" make difference, if Army was ca. 300 000 and Police 100 000, than 15 000 killed in Katyn/Kharkov and 170 000 killed in Uprising - very big loses

it always "work" when you personalize

family: you, brother, step sister/cousin , mother, father, uncle, aunt, grandma (father), brother, another cousin, grandfather and grandma (mother site )

12 people right ??

so...

you are French - you lost noone

you are Russian - you lost lets say brother and maybe uncle

you are Pole - your brother, your father, your uncle were killed by SS

Edited by vilas

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Stalin forbidden alliance planes to land on USSR territory

British, American, Canadian planes could drop weapons and ammo for Warsaw, but they needed to refuel

Stalin forbidden

But bombers made shuttle raids. Don't know about cargo planes. Give link, pls.

The question is. Why to make uprising in that time after 6 years of occupation and not to wait 2 monthes?

Katyn idea was "to kill all Polish patriots, all people loving pre-ww2 Poland, all high educated romantics"

in Katyn, Charkov etc. ca. 15 000 was murded, but nation had 37 000 000

what to do with the rest ?

Yes. Also in Ostashkow camp.

you grown in other way of country, in your country there was tsar "ochrana", later "nkvd", you never in history had "democracy", your live meant nothing to your rulers

Never hear about Novgorod and Pskow Republics? THEY ELECTED Knjaz-s

Moskow follow another way and they win. I don't like Moskow, but it was effective power if you will see results.

we grown in other tradition, there was "nobles democracy, every vote is equal" "szlachcic na zagrodzie równy wojewodzie - noble on his land is equal governor of province"

I know the history of Rzechpospolita and this specific of shljachetska Republica. ;)

As i told before, i told before, i like polish hist. movies a lot and started to read about it.

concerning Konstantin Rokossowsky, you know, many Polish-named people were serving USSR, but they not cared for us, as they were only USSR citizens with Polish name

Many, but Rokossowsky was born in Poland. And after WWII was offencive minister

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This time I have to agree with vilas in the most of his last post. As I said earlier: Warsaw Uprising was aimed against the Germans in the military respect, against the Soviets in political respect. Some historians add to that that it was also aimed against the Western Allies in moral respect. The first point is obvious. But what are the second and the third?

The Home Army subordinated to the Polish Government in exile (after the Germans conquered Poland in 1939 the Polish Government operated in the UK) had orders to cooperate with the Soviets comming to Polish lands (in 1944) and if possible to clear cities and vilages from the Germans before the Soviets come and to welcome them from the position of hosts, legal representants of the Polish Government. In reality the situation was different in different regions of the country. Some Home Army units fought arm to arm with the Soviets for clearing cities from the Germans, some managed to clear some cities before the Soviets came, some (and it was against the orders of Home Army's command) allegedly received wepons from the Germans to fight the Soviet partisans. In most cases after the fighting with the Germans was over the officers of the Home Army who revealed themselves to the Soviet commanders were executed, arrested, deported. You have to understand this correctly. The Home Army was an enemy for Stalin because it was subordinated to the Govenment in exile and it wanted to return the government after the war. And Stalin wanted to place his own puppet government in Poland. The situation was complicated by the fact that the Soveits were allies of the Polish allies - the Western countries. And the Western countries wanted to win the war with the Soviet hands, by their blood (I agree that in the military respect the USSR had the decesive role in beating the Third Reich), so they didn't want to provoke the conflict with the USSR because of that unberable Poland.

So the Warsaw Uprising was politically aimed against the Soviets just as the previous actions of the Home Army. It was to show that Poland is an independent country with the legal Government in exile and to win recogition of the fact among public opinion in the other nations. It was morally aimed against the Western Allies not to allow them let Poland's fate in Stalin's hands. To move the hearts of Western Allies' citizens so they pressed on their politicians to stand for Poland.

When you understand that, you will know that it wasn't in Stalin's interest to help the Uprising. It was against his plans. So he did everything he thought appriorpiate to let the Poles bleed.

No no. I think for the most part it's that simple.

Same reason the British fought.

Politicians may have been talking a big hoohah but most people just wanted to kill Germans because they hated them for what they did.

At least that's what it was like here. I assume the Russians felt the same.

Revenge was the primary motivator round these parts, and the Russians got it a lot worse than we did.

Well, maybe I overgeneralised a bit. But I'm sure the situation in Western nations and the Soviet nation was totally different.

You forget that the Western societies were totally different from the Soviet one. The western govenments didn't commit such crimes on their own people as Stalin did (Great Purge, the Hunger at Ukraine, gulags, NKVD and constant and surrounding from all the sides invigilation). They did not love Stalin even if they said that they did. Saying that they didn't was already a crime. Suspicion that they did not love him could be a crime as well.

The difference between the Western and the Soviet societies can be seen it the second line of their armies. The Red Army's front lines were followed by NKVD which didn't hestitate to shoot their own soldiers who fell back. Soldiers of the Red Army feared not only the enemy but also their own officers and commisars. The Western soldiers were treated like individuals. The Soviet soldiers were just the numbers (just as Ingeneer wrote about the Dukla Pass operation - the Red Army soldiers there, often Ukrainians or Lemkos were sent in the fights just after two weeks of training. Their death was nothing to their commanders.) Soviet POWs taken to captivity by the Germans didn't recive and packages from the Soviet "red cross"-like organisations because they were betrayers. Many of the POWs served in the German auxillary service because the were treated there much better than in the Red Army. RONA and ROA were established so late only because Hitler was strongly against it till the time he really needed them.

The nation that suffered the most because of Stalin was without a doubt the Russian nation.

---------- Post added at 10:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 AM ----------

But bombers made shuttle raids. Don't know about cargo planes. Give link, pls.

I'm not sure if the drops of supplies would change anything. Maybe the anti-tank weapons but that's the topic for different discussion. But the forbiding refueling the planes is a fact. BTW Allied flights to Warsaw had very high casualities rate and weren't very efficient. I've also read that there were also plans of dropping the 1st Independent Parachute Brigade to help the Warsaw Uprising but I think they weren't very realistic. Anyway the Brigade took its part in Market Garden Operation while the Uprising was still on.

http://www.metacritic.com/books/authors/daviesnorman/rising44

I can't give you a page number because I've only read the Polish translation of the book. I'll search for it some more on the net.

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So the Warsaw Uprising was politically aimed against the Soviets just as the previous actions of the Home Army.
it wasn't in Stalin's interest to help the Uprising. It was against his plans.

There's logic... But due of this POLITICAL fights a lot of people died. And responsibility for theyr life layed on both political forces. But britts who lead goverment in exile are innocent? Where was this britts in 1939? Did they help to Poland? Absolutely no. Like to Czechoslovakia before.

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