Kinda newbie-like question re visibility

[ladlon 10]

I'm carefully moving along, using cover, making sure the area is clear.... then suddenly an enemy is announced and/or we get shot at. Fine... I drop to the ground and seek cover. All that is great.... but then I'm faced with grass in my face, and seemingly no way to see the enemy (who is hard enough to spot without the grass!). I try pushing it down, relocating, etc... but it seems I'm always faced with grass and a bad angle (enemy's ground is rarely higher than mine, so they are behind the 'horizon'.

Just wondering how you guys deal with this. I always seem to have to go to a kneeling pose just to be able to actually see the enemy and shoot... but that naturally puts me at a much higher risk of getting seen/hit.

I'm just feeling like the soldier who wants to get in there with the rest of the troop, but can't seem to unjam his weapon! :(

Curious to hear your tips, comments, etc...

Edited March 18, 2010 by ladlon

[maturin 12]

Fighting in a thicket or any dense foliage can be hell. I usually assume that the AI are my equal in such situations (unlike urban combat where I can slaughter them by the dozen).

In general, I prize visibility over safety and risk getting shot (they are rarely accurate on the first shot, so until you hear the snaps, don't go prone) in order to locate the enemy. If you have AI, they will often clean up while you stare at grass. If you order your squad to go prone as well, chances are the enemy will lose line of sight and try to flank you. The AI isn't, well, very good at flanking. It usually entails sprinting somewhere and getting clotheslined by your machinegunner.

But yeah, search for vertical cover, like houses or rocks. Then you can fire from cover without lying down. Otherwise, stick to the thicket vegetation you can find so you can hide and relocate. Bushes do block AI LOS quite well, no matter what the paranoiacs say.

[celery 8]

Disable grass. It's purely a visual obstacle for the player and doesn't affect AI.

[Takko 10]

doesn't affect AI.

Wrong!

[Bulldogs 10]

Yep, that argument has been done to death too many times and the end result is always the same. The AI can't see through grass but if they know you're position for any reason (sound, spotting you and predicting your location) they can put some pretty heavy supression on you that'll often kill.

If you get too annoyed by the grass, hit enter and go into 3rd person mode to spot, then switch back to supress the enemies general position.

[ladlon 10]

Hrmmm.... Ya, I always wondered if (or how much) things like grass, bushes and trees actually DO block you from the enemy (visually, not bullet-wise). It would annoy me (as it does in other games) if they made no difference, and all my stealth tactics were pointless!

Disabling the grass is a good idea (assuming it doesn't affect the AI, which seems to be in debate here)... but the grass looks so cool! (heheh...)

(Actually, it would be cool to have a command to crane your head up a bit, just to look around without having to get up to a kneeling pose, then go prone again!)

True, my squad usually takes care of the enemy before I've even managed to spot them... That's all lovely, but I really want to be part of the action too. Getting tired of being the 'slow' member of the team, not contributing, and having to be bailed out by the rest of the squad. :(

I guess I just have to keep practicing and study some more 'proper tactics'. I'm just kind of doing things my own way right now... Probably would make another person (who is well versed in the proper combat techniques) spit out their coffee, and look in shock and dismay.

Ya, seems I'm ALWAY in that flippin' grass... and not on some clear level ground. I'm always playing random sessions using the SECOM module. Always in the middle of a field! Argh....

[NoRailgunner 0]

ladlon things like grass, bushes, trees, smoke and objects do block you from the enemy. But the enemy would be a bit dumb if they're only waiting for you to get killed. The AI in BIS games sometimes is a tiny bit more interested to survive than in other games. Practice makes perfect! ;)

[Guest]

Please do not start this debait about grass again...:p

When I engage enemies in Arma 2 I always try and keep the maximum possible range. In real life it would be a very dangerous situation fighting the enemy within 30 or so metres, so in Arma 2, I keep it nice and far.

This way I feel much more in control of the situation, rather than having to keep my head down and just spray.

Hope that helps a little!

[TimRiceSE 10]

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=6042

you might like this addon to make the grass clutter etc smaller. Still pretty, but not in your eyes.

[celery 8]

Wrong!

Yep, that argument has been done to death too many times and the end result is always the same. The AI can't see through grass but if they know you're position for any reason (sound, spotting you and predicting your location) they can put some pretty heavy supression on you that'll often kill.

If you get too annoyed by the grass, hit enter and go into 3rd person mode to spot, then switch back to supress the enemies general position.

If you're so sure, place an AI somewhere on the map and compare its spotting capabilities with terrain level on very low and then higher. My statement stands, grass (=terrain detail) does not affect AI, it only blocks the player's view.

[IronTrooper 0]

If you're so sure, place an AI somewhere on the map and compare its spotting capabilities with terrain level on very low and then higher. My statement stands, grass (=terrain detail) does not affect AI, it only blocks the player's view.

Well you said grass doesn't affect AI (one would assume you meant the presence of the grass in the location) and now you're saying the terrain detail (the client settings) doesn't. Those are two different things.

And let's not argue about something that had been already argued about for a long time.

I think the OP already got a good answer from maturin.

[celery 8]

Well you said grass doesn't affect AI (one would assume you meant the presence of the grass in the location) and now you're saying the terrain detail (the client settings) doesn't. Those are two different things.

What else is there to grass than the terrain detail? When terrain detail is very low, there is no grass, and it doesn't change the AI's behavior in any way. In other words, grass doesn't affect AI, only the player.

[ladlon 10]

Well, truthfully, half my difficulty while on a mission is wrestling with the controls too. So many times I either:

1) Can't seem to get the right control option (ex. Gate icon appearing... Getting the First Aid icon to appear when trying to get a wounded guy to stop crawling around...)

2) Hit the wrong thing because the context menu suddenly changes

3) Am in a situation where the software won't allow me to do what I want (ex. Tell the copter that I just failed to board to come back down with my squad, and let me try boarding again... without having to tell everyone to get out first, etc)

4) Spend time fumbling through the menus because the mouse wheel got overzealous, or my keystroke wasn't registered (or registered twice)

5) Operate based on what I THINK the control scheme should be, not what it IS... and repeatedly being surprised that a command isn't available at the time due to the dynamic/context nature of the controls

6) End up shooting rather than selecting (or vice versa on a bad day!), or some other 'I didn't want to do that' scenarios, because some mouse buttons are linked to multiple actions

That alone (topped with my general lack of knowledge on ADVANCED combat techniques (...I generally understand basic techniques/practices) help to turn my outings into a bit of chaos.... or, at least for ME.... My squadmates seem to do fine.

[bwc153 10]

For number 6, just use the middle mouse button (click the mouse wheel) to select your option. You will never have the problem of accidentally shooting while selecting again.

[bummer 10]

quote "For number 6, just use the middle mouse button (click the mouse wheel) to select your option. You will never have the problem of accidentally shooting while selecting again."

unfortunately 9 times out of ten you will scrool at the same time , hit "disembark" in the middle of battle then be killed trying to scroll "get in" to more than 1 vehicle!

ps" when giving orders just keep the medic close by for those accidental shootings!:j:

[ladlon 10]

Yup, did the middle button thing... and yup, I often scroll....

War is hell.

[Nielsneo 10]

What else is there to grass than the terrain detail? When terrain detail is very low, there is no grass, and it doesn't change the AI's behavior in any way. In other words, grass doesn't affect AI, only the player.

No, the terrain detail only affects the rendering of grass. It does not affect the grass layer wich the AI percieves as the ground. The problem is that things stick out. That is why grass is not considered concealment. The best thing to do is find some hard cover, but if you are in a large open field you're basicaly f***ed.:butbut:

[bwc153 10]

quote ."

unfortunately 9 times out of ten you will scrool at the same time , hit "disembark" in the middle of battle then be killed trying to scroll "get in" to more than 1 vehicle!

Yeah, i still have that problem... I was specifically referring to accidentally shooting.

[NeMeSiS 11]

If you're so sure, place an AI somewhere on the map and compare its spotting capabilities with terrain level on very low and then higher. My statement stands, grass (=terrain detail) does not affect AI, it only blocks the player's view.

Here we go again:

As a matter of fact and unlike popular belief, the AI is affected by grass in Arma 2. There is approximation for clutter surrounding every unit affecting how well the AI can see it.

As always, there is a room for improvements in fidelity, so feel free to complain (but probably with better words, can you?)

That "lame" layer as present in Arma 1 was not very compatible with new rendering system and we are trying to come up with a better and more accurate solution but that of course is only visual effect important for human players, AI is unfair and doesn't use image recognition from the real rendering of game world

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=81935&page=2

[IronTrooper 0]

What else is there to grass than the terrain detail? When terrain detail is very low, there is no grass, and it doesn't change the AI's behavior in any way. In other words, grass doesn't affect AI, only the player.

Saying "grass doesn't affect AI" is too general, ambiguous.

You've been talking about one thing, Takko was talking about another.

The presence of the grass on the map (what's really taken into account by the game) and its rendering (displaying to the client) are 2 different things. One affects AI, the other obviously doesn't.

[celery 8]

No, the terrain detail only affects the rendering of grass. It does not affect the grass layer wich the AI percieves as the ground. The problem is that things stick out. That is why grass is not considered concealment. The best thing to do is find some hard cover, but if you are in a large open field you're basicaly f***ed.:butbut:

Here we go again:

Saying "grass doesn't affect AI" is too general, ambiguous.

You've been talking about one thing, Takko was talking about another.

The presence of the grass on the map (what's really taken into account by the game) and its rendering (displaying to the client) are 2 different things. One affects AI, the other obviously doesn't.

So which grass are YOU guys talking about? I advised the OP to disable grass because it only blocks the player's view, which was his problem in the first place. I and the OP are talking about the grass that you see on the ground. If that same grass indeed blocks the AI's view, how come it can see you when both of you are lying in the grass, while you can't see it? The behavior stays the same on all terrain detail levels.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Simple test on Utes without addons/mods:

settings on high - AI wont recognize you, they simply pass by if you're prone and not moving

settings on very low - AI recognize you and start shooting at you if you're prone and not moving

Didnt test it with UltraAI, thought.

If the AI is at a higher place they can and may recognize you too. ;)

I would say sometimes the "AI info sharing" is messed up eg when they say that there are enemies behind a building/hill without beeing able to "see" enemy AI's.

[IronTrooper 0]

...how come it can see you when both of you are lying in the grass, while you can't see it?

Suma Maruk said that AI is affected by grass, so I wouldn't say it can see you (they may hear you, know about you though) but of course it's not perfect.

Your advise to the OP was fine, because the visible grass usually puts the player at a disadvantage.

I'm just trying to correct some statements here ;)

Edited March 19, 2010 by IronTrooper

[Bulldogs 10]

Small correction. That post wasn't from Suma (who is a developer for BIS) it was from Maruk ( who is the CEO of BIS)... not that any of that matters.

The argument was done to death, and if you want to relive the argument and bring up points that have already been discussed in full then just read the old threads and you'll get your already stated responses.

The main point is that the argument was settled and this thread has little to do with the original threads (which, once again, you can look up yourself if you want answers) and more to do with how to deal the the grass and AI.

And as already mentioned, you can disable grass, or you can use the low clutter mod, or you can see the grass as the challenge that it is and focus on defeating the overly adept enemy.

[jw custom 56]

I think the main problem with grass(from players end) is the players view point is too low. You can lay in grass thats not really high and yet you cant see anything, then if you look from 3rd person view you can see that your actually higher than the grass :p