Is there interest in this mod, if so I need testers

[Mysteryman5150 10]

Hi all, first off let me start by saying I am not starting this post to peddle my mods. I am simply trying to get some community involvement in helping with this because I am not very good at this part of what I want to do as I will clarify below.

The Plan:

I have 3 different mods I am looking to merge into 1 final mod. The idea is to create some realistic differences between different forces i.e. Special forces, standard militaries and local insurgents and malitias.

The Situation:

The current mods all come with files in the userconfig folder so the user can set their own variables. The reason I did this is because I am not very good at coming up with the most realistic settings. Therefore, I just created the mods to allow the user choose.

I would like to make a final mod that uses all 3 mods (maybe more if new ideas arise from your responses) into 1 more complex mod that would have permanent settings based upon the given feedback here. If I do not get much feedback I will probably not do a mod like this and I will more than likely just continue to make the simple mods like I have been doing.

The Mods:

Infantry Armor:

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=9550

Weapons Dispersion:

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=9576

Infantry Stealth and Recognition Skills:

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=9604

Infantry Using Adjustable Dispersion Weapons:

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=9626

Feedback Information needed:

Overall:

-Looking for people to tinker with the adjustable values to help with the following items in each mod below as well as extra input on how to make this even better:).

Infantry Armor Mod (keep in mind that distance the bullet travels before impact does affect damage):

-Adjust values in the userconfig file and help to come up with reasonable values to create a realistic feel to wearing combat armor.

-What values should insurgents and local malitias have since they usually have no armor?

-Adjust values to help create realistic amounts of damage to be taken to arms and legs

Weapons Disperion Mod:

-Adjust the variables in the userconfig file and help to come up with some realistic values for Highly trained Special Forces units, standard military and insurgents/local malitias.

-I can asign AD (adjustable dispersion) weapons to lets say Special Forces and insurgents to give them higher or lower accuracy and keep the standard weapons for the standard military forces. This should give some effect accuracy being different based on training. Example- I think Insurgents should have weapons with higher dispersion which would simulate that they are not as highly trained as military personnel, especially since there is no way to really set accuracy by each unit type.

Stealth and Recognition Mod:

-Adjust the variables in the userconfig file and help determine good settings for varied unit types and factions. Example- I think Special Forces should have realy good stealth and recognition. I also think snipers should have excelent camo and sensitivity.

Conclusion

If I can get some input on this we should be able to come up with a pretty good final version for everyone to enjoy. If not, like I said earlier, I will continue to work on smaller mods. Thank you to anyone who may be interested in this and wants to help.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Mysteryman5150

[Fox '09 14]

I will download these and try them out. They all look interesting :)

edit:

hopefully caused by this mod, I managed to get a few inches away from an insurgent as a force recon soldier, where a USMC rifleman couldn't get as close. (too loud..?).

I'm starting to like that one :)

Edited February 19, 2010 by Fox '09

[Mysteryman5150 10]

@ AxF FoX- Glad you like it;). All the mods should work properly as well as all work together as I have tested them pretty well and have worked out the few minor bugs I came across.

If you tweaked any of the settings that would be possible. especially the audible. In my testing just to verify the mod worked I set the audible to 0 for a specific unit and could come right behind an enemy and he couldn't hear me. Then I set the camouflage to 0 w/ audible at 0 and I could run around him and he had no Idea unless I fired my weapon, LOL. With camo at 0 but audible normal setting I could run around him and he could hear but not see me unless I fired my weapon.

Like I said this was just to test to verify the mod worked. now I am looking for help making these settings better to create the variances between units stated above:).

[Fox '09 14]

haha. that sounds like good fun.

I have noticed one problem, maybe not caused by the mod... but If I shot someone in the head, they should at least fall to a seriously wounded state (ACE mod or the regular ArmA 2 First aid one). It shouldn't matter what gun, that should always happen.

I do have a question about the Infantry armor mod. Is this a chest only armor? if not, then do you know a way to make it only the chest that has "armor"?

[Mysteryman5150 10]

Have you opened the HPP files in the userconfig folder using a text editor. When you do there will be pretty good details about the settings and what each of the settings do. I believe I reset all the settings for each of the mods back to the original Arma2 settings when I uploaded them, so the only way you should see any changes, from the normal game you were playing before my mods, is if you have altered those files in the userconfig;).

As for any ACE questions, well I cannot answer as I don't use ACE. Therefore, I must appologize for my ignorance in that catagory.

Also one last note is that these mods are going to work for sure with the original Arma2 units. Any alterations to the original units (possibly in ACE, I'm not sure) or new unit addons may not be affected by the settings in this mod. This is based on the fact that the new units and/or modded units may inherit their info from earlier in the soldier/unit lineage than where my mods come in on the lineage. Therefore my mod would never even touch those units. I hope that makes some sort of sense:).

Edited February 19, 2010 by Mysteryman5150

[Binkowski 26]

Yeah I'll test these out if I have time.

[Mysteryman5150 10]

Thanks Bink- Also let me know of any additional ideas that I could research and try to find a way to implement;).

BTW Bink- I looked at a bunch of the new unit addon mods and yours look like one of the few that will actually inherit all the info from these mods, including weapons, since you don't define them. At least in the ones I looked at anyway:).

Edited February 19, 2010 by Mysteryman5150

[thales100 10]

Sure mysteryman, ill try these out asap.

[Mysteryman5150 10]

Added- Infantry Using Adjustable Dispersion Weapons.

This is a new addon where certain specified units are using the AD weapons from the weapons dispersion pack. This is the direction I am trying to go with this complete addon package. Doing things like this and getting some good feedback will allow a great mod to be created, that will actually create some variance between unit type. This is something I think the standard Arma2 lacks.

[Fox '09 14]

I have been testing the stealth mod. It looks like 0.1 camo for the sniper (both sides?) seems to be a good spot. I can't be detected easily if I'm prone, not moving, and by grass or something.

I bet they could walk around me without even knowing.

edit:

nevermind. At night, yes, but not the day.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Fox '09

[Mysteryman5150 10]

@FoX- I wouldn't say you are to far off with that. Especially if the sniper is wearing a ghilles suit. I believe that would be possible to have an enemy walking within several meters of him and not seeing him if he is in good cover. Maybe someone with some real life experience in this could give us some insight.

The problem I found with sniping the AI, with the standard settings, is that if you fire 1 shot, even from 200m, they spot you almost imediately. I think they should be able to find the direction of the shot but not instantly spot you. Those are the kind of things I am wanting this mod to correct;). Now if you continue firing or get up and move quickly they should spot you. However, not from 200m+ without a scope or binoculars.

I appreciate the feedback. I have been doing some testing myself and found with the lower camo ratings you can fire a shot and if you keep low and move, you can usaully get to another area safely.

Thank you for continuing to run some tests. Did you see I realeased a new part to this mod in the first post. It is starting to take some direction now. I just definately need some more feedback because like I said I am not an expert on what kind of rounds can be absorbed while wearing combat armor and things like I asked in the first post.

I just want to add a new dimension to the game for those who would like to use this addon when complete:D.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

I can tell you that IRL no sniper would ever fire 2 shots from the same position unless it was vital to the survival of himself and his spotter.

For example 3 days before you go out on a "hunting" mission into the boonies you scout out the route you plan to take. You set up hides in areas you know have LOS to areas that see alot of traffic. Most of the time (Unless going into unknown territory or into an area where friendly forces do not operate) you would know the area your going into pretty good and would always have another hide set up.

Also having the AI know exactly where your at is a bit off, but not by much. There is an example from one of the 2 books about Carlos Hathcock (It's been a long day and I can't seem to find which out of the two it was) where he and his spotter were set up overlooking a particular area. They heard an explosion not that far off and figured it was probably VC hitting a convoy. They wait for a little while and sure enough the BAR Team (Long story, basically a group of VC women who knew how to use BARs & use em good) shows up heading back toward their safe zone (Away from major cities/bases). Hathcock and his spotter adjust their sights and open fire at the same time, dropping two of the group. Before either of them can get another shot off the rest of the group reaches a treeline, crouches, and starts shooting where they figure the snipers were. They started a bit low and walked their rounds right onto the exact position where the snipers lay.

I apologize for the long post. I think I'm just trying to say that there are plenty of times where the way the AI behaves is accurate. I guess it depends on several things though. Like experience, knowledge of the terrain, whether you've been shot at before :D etc. etc.

*Edit*

As for what kind of rounds can be absorbed while wearing body armor i just asked my dad (Ret. SSG, 26 years in the U.S. Army) and he says that with the ceramic plates a vest can stop everything up to and including 7.62. Without the plates I'm not sure. He says probably up to 5.56 but the internet says a kevlar vest can stop up to...

9 mm FMJ at ~1,400 fps

(~427 mps)

(e.g., sub-machine-gun velocity)

.44 Magnum Lead Semi-Wadcutter at ~1,400 fps

(~427 mps).

That's if it's certified "III-A" which is the highest thickness protection for "Soft" body armor. Not many soldiers use them without the plates though...

Info on the marines armor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_Tactical_Vest

Info on the armor the Army uses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improved_Outer_Tactical_Vest

Edited February 20, 2010 by Darkhorse 1-6

[Mysteryman5150 10]

Thanks for the insight Darkhorse, that is good stuff. That is the kind of info that is helpful, as well as some testing and results from others. I know it will probably not be possible to replicate real life body armor, at least without a script that does this. However, if possible I want to try to create some simulation of it;).

[AKM 0]

Uh, the USMC aren't the only force in the game wearing body armour. The Russians are also wearing body armour. Many of them are also equipped with chest rigs ("lifchik" type, which is to say, "bra", and that's the term many Russians use for a chest rig, dates from Afghanistan). I don't recognize the body armour the Russians are wearing, but most issue vests since Afghanistan stop 7.62x39mm M43 ammunition reliably.

Chest-mounted ammunition pouches have also been reported (extensively) to stop 5.56x45mm ammunition, both SS109, the American M855, and so on so forth. It'll certainly pose problems to "enhanced lethality" ammunition such as Mk.262 and Mk.318 Mod 0, which are new cartridges for SOCOM use - the latter has been injected into the USMC supply system and is seeing service in the ongoing Operation MOSHTARAK, the "Battle of Marjah" in RC South, Afghanistan. AK magazines are pretty good body armour by themselves; since the NVA (PAVN) and VC started wearing them in Vietnam 5.56x45mm has had issues with it. The problem was made worse when the US Army went to the M4 over the M16; the shorter barrel decreases the v0 (muzzle velocity) leading to more and more problems downrange: especially in Afghanistan, where the guys our lads are shooting at are typically quite some distance away and are often drugged out of their minds.

Speaking of, perhaps one could enable an "Opposition jacked up on epinephrine and/or hash/opium/cocaine" sub-set. This was extensively reported in Iraq and has happened in Afghanistan too. A book which covers it that is available to the general public is Staff Sergeant D. Bellavia's "House to House", an account of an 11M NCO in the Fallujah fight in Iraq.

5.56x45mm has also been reported to have extensive problems in Iraq/Afghanistan on unarmoured, un-hopped-up targets at close range, simply because it is a fairly weak cartridge that does not produce good soft tissue effects. Hence the adoption of ammunition like Mk.262 by US SOCOM (and presumably other NATO SF) and the injection of Mk.318 Mod 0 into the USMC.

By comparison the Soviets never had these problems with the 5N7 ammunition (5.45x39mm) used in AK-74; this was rather effective on Afghanis, Chechens, Dagestanis, Chechens, Georgians, and so on (the list is rather extensive), both hopped up on smack and stone-cold sober. That's all soft-target data, though. On body armour the ammunition typically penetrates and then fragments inside the target but rarely destabilizes and fragments in the process of creating that J-shaped wound tract. The older 5.56x45mm ammunition such as M855 and SS109 have better penetration characteristics (against armour) than the new rounds like Mk.318.

M43 7.62x39mm lethality is hotly debated, but the fact remains that it still kills people rather nicely. Most discussion centers on "Well, it can't defeat X, Y, and Z armours". This may or may not be true: recognize that right now we use monolithic ceramic trauma plates which have poor multiple-impact-resistance by nature of being a single solid plate. M43 is also "the cartridge to beat", it's probably the most widespread small arms ammo in the world. Against unarmoured targets 7.62x39mm always does the job.

With regards to concealment, the snipers in ArmA 2 are too heavily ghillied - the front of the model has a lot of scrim on it, that doesn't happen in the real world because snipers need to be able to crawl. You see it on ghillie suits mass-manufactured for "look cool" factor. However, we can say that they're wearing well scrimmed ghillie suits and it has been my experience that one can step on a guy wearing a ghillie and only know it when he swears at you/shoots you. Of course, that was in terrain ideal for him and I was distracted - in the middle of a bounding overwatch/leapfrog, wasn't looking for a ghillied guy at that point.

The guys who have full ghillie in game are USMC Scout Snipers and Russian Army snipers. There's also a half-ghillied NAPA sniper. Scout Snipers and RA snipers are very, very good, very well trained. I'd say you'd only know about one after he shot at you. As Darkhorse says, if given a choice, snipers never fire two rounds from the same position. A Russian saying I'm fond of that I've heard from some veterans who served as snipers and platoon marksmen is "I would rather you be excellent at hiding and very good at shooting than excellent at shooting and very good at hiding: Missing a shot at five hundred meters will never get you killed if the enemy can't find you."

As to 7.62x51mm NATO and 7.62x54R, those'll kill you outright, body armour or no, for all practical purposes in this game given the limitations of the system you've devised and the engine itself.

Edited February 20, 2010 by AKM

[Mysteryman5150 10]

@AKM- Thanks for more insight:). I did realize that other factions were wearing body armor, I just forgot to update the first post:o. I will fix it;).

There are definately alot of limitations to creating a real body armor effect, short of scripting, so I just want to allow the unit to at least be able to absorb a few shots to the chest (before being KIA) to create at least a little simultion effect of wearing body armor.

Hopefully I can come up with some values that are reasonable on the armor as well as some good dispersion factors for the guns to create the effect of accuracy being different between unit types. A well trained military should fire at least a little more accurately than insurgents, IMO anyway, maybe I am wrong about this.

Thanks again and if you are tinkering with these addons at all would you mind posting some results that you feel would help make the final project seem a little more realistic. You seen to have alot of good knowledge and that would definately help out:).

[froggyluv 2130]

Thanks for doing these Mysteryman5150, this is something that is sorely needed for ARMA2.

I messed around a little with the config, lowering the insurgents armor as well as using GL4's skill definition to lower them, and it plays out much more to my liking. That being, units will be more like Chess pieces rather then identical automatons with different outfits.

Will keep my eye closely on this one ;)

[Fox '09 14]

very good post AKM.

Mysteryman, i have one question. Can I edit the userconfigs in real time so I can test it in real time, or do I have to restart ArmA 2?

EDIT:

nevermind, I can't.

[Mysteryman5150 10]

@FoX-LOL, I was thinking the same thing. I wish I knew how to script something to that level;)

@froggy- Thanks for the positive comments:). Feel free to post some results of your testing as well. Like I said I would like to release a final version with all setting pre-set to good values for those who don't want to mess with the userconfigs. If I can accomplish this I will also release a complete final version that is adjustable for those who do like to make their own settings;)

Edited February 21, 2010 by Mysteryman5150

[froggyluv 2130]

Feel free to post some results of your testing as well. Like I said I would like to release a final version with all setting pre-set to good values for those who don't want to mess with the userconfigs. If I can accomplish this I will also release a complete final version that is adjustable for those who do like to make their own settings;)

I would but honestly I doubt anyone would be that interested as I've basically just drastically reduced Insurgent/Guerilla's bodyarmor to make them go down quicker. I like having some weaker troops in game as that makes professional soldiers I encounter feel that much tougher. Also like I said, I like to mess with GL4's skill settings so that way I can give certain Guerilla/insurgents super quick aim, or make a particularly better marksman.

[Mysteryman5150 10]

@Frog- No problem. I am starting to think it may be better to just leave my mods as they are, which is user adjustable. I think the idea of personal settings is appealing to a small group that enjoy SP and making the game more to their liking anyway.

I may still do a complete mod with all settings pre-set if there is enough response for it, otherwise I will continue to try to find ways to make more mods that the user can set their own variables.

If you acn think of anything you might like to see in a user adjustable mod let me know and I will see if I can find a way to do it;).

Thanks again

Edited February 22, 2010 by Mysteryman5150

[Fox '09 14]

I made a demonstration video. They both are in about the same place, just one place looks likes there are more shadows.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cxXjFQgQfk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cxXjFQgQfk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

I have to make use of shadows and heavy grass to hide, which is exactly what I want. (even in the day I can hide if i do that..)

[froggyluv 2130]

I have to make use of shadows and heavy grass to hide, which is exactly what I want. (even in the day I can hide if i do that..)

I didn't think Arma2 took shadows into account for AI :confused:

[Mysteryman5150 10]

Fox, Thanks for putting up a demo video:). What did you have the camo set at when you did the video. Also did you mess with the sensitivity on the enemy forces. Obviously results will vary for everyboby depending on the settings they use. That was generally the idea behind using a file in the userconfig.

[Fox '09 14]

I was using 0.1 for camo. I haven't tried out setting the sensitivity on the enemy forces, but I will eventually try that out :)

[Mysteryman5150 10]

What would anyone think of a mod that would allow the user to set the audible and visibility settings of silinced weapons. It does not effect the actual game audio and visuals, only the AI ability to see or hear it, this can be done for all ammo types, BTW.

For fun I actually created a silenced m107 that uses the BIS silenced rifle sound. I know it's lame because I don't have a model (I don't make models, sorry) for it but I just wanted to see if I could do it;). That is why I didn't released it.