Why barrel overheating should matter

[JSj 12]

Are you using light machineguns like the M249 i Arma 2? If yes, then why? Especially if you are playing with ACE 2 this makes no sense. In the game, one of the full auto capable M4s, using MG36 100 round magazines, will give you virtually the same capability in a much lighter weapon. With the new weight based stamina system in ACE 2, it makes no sense dragging around a heavy M249.

The reason real militaries use machine guns is barrel overheating. The barrel of a weapon rapidly heats up when used for sustained firing. An assault rifle is not capable of rapidly firing many hundreds of rounds downrange without the barrel taking serious damage. A machinegun has a much heavier, more heat resistant barrel that can be quickly replaced when needed. It is this sustained fire capability that makes it worth dragging along a 10 kg M249 instead of a 3-4 kg assault rifle.

A sniper rifle is also affected by this, because the aiming point changes as the barrel heats up.

So, I think that this really needs to be implemented in the game. Those of you who have played Red Orchestra knows that this feature already exist there, if you fire for long periods of time you need to let your machinegun cool down or change the barrel. A similar thing is needed for all weapons in Arma 2.

[Zipper5 74]

Are you using light machineguns like the M249 i Arma 2? If yes, then why?

Because we can?

While I do think this is a good idea, I think that, if anything, it should be modded in, not made standard in the game. The game is already ridiculously realistic as it is, for some people.

[Herbal Influence 10]

As far as I know it's implemented in ACE2 - or will be implented there.

[JSj 12]

As far as I know it's implemented in ACE2 - or will be implented there.

You're right. I see now that it is mentioned in the ACE 2 features list. At least there's going to be reduced accuracy when your weapon overheats. I think they could make it a bit more severe, so that the weapon would ultimately be destroyed if not allowed to cool down.

And since this is such an important feature, it is the whole reason why squad machine guns are used in the first place, I definitely think this should be made part of the game, not just modded in.

Still, great news that it's going to be included to some degree in ACE 2.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Johan S

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I don't know about utter destruction of an assault rifle. Seems a bit too much to me for a game. Maybe trigger FADE? :D Even if I shoot quite a bit with ACE, I don't "feel" the impact very much. So, yes, it could definitely be increased.

But, same applies to machineguns. You can't sustain the amount of shooting that we can do in Arma2. When I was in the Army, my squad always carried an extra barrel for the MG3 machinegun. During heavy shooting (blanks), the idea was to replace the barrel so teh other one could cool down. You shoot in bursts, sometimes you can do overlapping fires from several guns. In Arma2, one gun is enough. The ACE M60 seems to jam a lot (I'm just unlucky?), maybe that could be an added punishment for overheating?

Also, maybe some machineguns could have replaceable barrels? That would be most welcome, as in order to use such a weapon effectively, you'd have to get that extra weight somewhere. Replace barrel to "clear JAM2"? Could be cool.

[jasonnoguchi 11]

You are wrong as to the reason why mggunner is relevant in RL squads.

the effects of overheating in RL rifles is more jamming and increased inaccuracy. It does not totally destroy a weapon.

According to wikipedia:

"In July 2007, the US Army announced a limited competition between the M4 Carbine, FN SCAR, HK416, and the previously-shelved HK XM8. Ten examples of each of the four competitors were involved. During the testing, 60,000 rounds apiece were fired from each of the 40 carbines in an "extreme dust environment." The purpose of the shootoff was for assessing future needs, not to select a replacement for the M4.[7]

During the test, the SCAR suffered 226 stoppages ranking second to the XM8 with 127 stoppages, but less compared to the M4 with 882 stoppages and the HK 416 with 233. This test was based on two previous systems assessments that were conducted using the M4 Carbine and M16 rifle at Aberdeen in 2006 and the summer of 2007 before the third limited competition in the fall of 2007. The 2006 test focused only on the M4 and M16. The Summer 2007 test had only the M4, but increased lubrication. Results from the second test resulted in a total of 307 stoppages for the M4 after lubrication was increased, but did not explain why the M4 suffered 882 stoppages with that same level of lubrication in the third test.[8][9]"

I don't think we come close to 60,000 rounds (anyone here carry 2000 magazines??) being fired from a single weapon in ArmA2 ever, do we? :) Even with 60,000 rounds, the effect is just increased jamming, that's all, no total destruction.

In RL military, no standard soldiers are issued with 100 rounds drum mags as they are extremely cumbersome and no standard combat vests are designed for that kind of drum mags (I know because I have carried and used a 100 rounds drum on a G36 before in RL). Hence the relevance of the mggunner. MGgunners wear special vests to carry all that ammunition needed, which are different in configuration from standard riflemen vests. Therefore, to make all that relevance in game, instead of introducing a fake weapons destruction due to overheating, just get rid of the drum mag for assault rifles or limit the number of drum mags that a rifleman can carry to just 1 drum. In RL, we usually have that drum on the weapon by default, not carried on our vest as there simply isn't a pocket designed for it.

Edited December 21, 2009 by jasonnoguchi

[JSj 12]

Good ideas CarlGustaffa. Replaceable barrels for machineguns would be nice. Overheating should be implemented for all weapons, including machine guns.

jason, I do not remember the details, but on these kinds of tests they take long pauses to allow the weapons to cool off. You do not shoot 60,000 rounds without pausing. The barrel would melt completely long before you reach that number.

The reason machine guns are used is indeed because they are sustained fire weapons. With heavy barrels that can also be quickly replaced they can keep up a much heavier rate of fire than an assault rifle.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Johan S

[CarlGustaffa 4]

In fact, here is an M60 doing 1500 without malfunction... But...

Other ideas for a suppressor. Americans are nut jobs :D

Sorry, couldn't find the video I was really looking for, which was a complete failure of the suppressor due to overheating during a not that intense shootout.

Yes I agree on the drum mag assaultrifle issue. The drum mag should really be made incompatible with the assault rifles. That would allow others to carry ammo for it in their ACE sacks (not too concerned about suitable belt). Especially since you cannot really see the drum and capture them in the act. I've tried to avoid the G36 family for this reason in our squad.

[jasonnoguchi 11]

@Johan, in my 8 years in SF and firing off hundreds of rounds in a single day and often quite a chunk of it in a single contact, i have never in my life seen a molten assault rifle. The deal about overheated barrels is simply inaccuracy and jamming and that is why mggunners carry spare barrels. Not because the barrel will melt. In fact, even with this logic, i have NEVER once seen my squad mate in real life change barrels no matter how heated a contact is. Also, I have personally manned and practise with 50 cal MG and squeezed off another few hundred rounds without the need for barrel changing at all. It does seem like all these barrel overheating is just too exaggerated here. Its really not that big a deal in RL and in RL, the reason MG stay relevant in a squad is simply because of its huge magazine capacity, fulfilling a perfect role for suppressive fire. I would agree that to balance it out, assualt rifles in ACE should be given only 1 drum mag or none at all.

Edited December 21, 2009 by jasonnoguchi

[JSj 12]

This is very interresting:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/13/the-truth-behind-the-recent-m4-controversy/

I quote here the official guidelines for the M4, that are referred to in the text:

"(B) FIRING 140 ROUNDS, RAPIDLY AND CONTINUOUSLY, WILL RAISE THE TEMPERATURE OF THE BARREL TO THE COOK-OFF POINT. AT THIS TEMPERATURE, ANY LIVE ROUND REMAINING IN THE CHAMBER FOR ANY REASON MAY COOK-OFF (DETONATE) IN AS SHORT A PERIOD AS 10 SECONDS.

...

(D) SUSTAINED RATE OF FIRE FOR THE M16 SERIES RIFLES AND M4 SERIES CARBINES IS 12-15 ROUNDS PER MINUTE. THIS IS THE ACTUAL RATE OF FIRE THAT A WEAPON CAN CONTINUE TO BE FIRED FOR AN Indefinite LENGTH OF TIME WITHOUT SERIOUS OVERHEATING."

Also, "No operator should empty more than 4 magazines rapidly."

Seems that "cook-off", rounds in the chamber going off without the trigger being pulled, due to the heat, and the barrel simply bursting because it is weakened, might be a problem long before the barrel melts. Anyway, these guidelines of course have a lot of safety margin built in to them, but it gives you some idea of the numbers involved, and how much you could potentially fire before overheating your weapon.

@ jason, "hundreds of rounds in a single day", that doesn't mean anything, does it? You could fire many thousands of rounds during a day, as long as you let the weapon cool off when it is necessary. I don't know the numbers for a machine gun, but I would guess from CarlGustaffas video and the numbers for the M4/M16 that you probably could fire about 1000 rounds rapidly before changing the barrel. And then you can keep firing with the new barrel while that one cools off. This means that in practice, you can keep up a much, much greater volume of fire over time with a machine gun.

They are sustained fire weapons, which is why they are used despite being much bigger and heavier to carry around than rifles. If it was just about magazine capacity, you could just use a similar belt or box feed system for an assault rifle, and save a lot of weight overall.

EDIT:

To give another number, from this place:

http://defensetech.org/2009/10/20/no-issues-with-m4-at-wanat/

"explaining that he’d done tests with SOCOM where they fired 560 rounds in two minutes before the barrel warped."

I don't know what "warped" might mean here, just less accuracy or a total barrel failure? But this shows that an assault rifle is not a machine gun, it's not capable of keeping up sustained fire for a long time.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Johan S

[jasonnoguchi 11]

@Johan, you are wrong again.

A cook off results in a misfire, meaning a round going off without pulling the trigger and only happens in extreme temperatures, temperatures which I has never encountered in my 8 years of fire arms experience with weapons of all calibres (.45 to 76mm). And no, a cook off don't blow your weapon up. In fact, the carbon build up in the barrel under such excruciating usage would cause the gun to jam so much that continuous firing isn't possible before any cook off would happen. I once had to dig a round out of the cartridge ejection port of an M16 with my bayonet once after a few mag of firing so Jamming is more of a concern and the time it takes to clear each of these jams would already be sufficient cool off periods. Jamming is quite accurately featured in ACE2 as I pumped about 300 rounds before I got one.

As for barrel warp, that is again an extreme case where the operator probably had 5 100 rounds drum mags and changed drums mags EXTREMELY quickly to prevent any cooling off. I don't think you will ever run into that situation ingame or RL. Ingame or in RL, anyone just sitting there pushing over 500 rounds non-stop is just setting up to be killed. Again, the limitation is in the mag. But yes, there is a way of breaking anything manmade so if you want to push it, yes, guns can break.

Coming back to the original issue, I would agree that to balance things up in the game, ACE should either remove the 100 rounds drum mag for assault rifles or limit it to 1 drum mag ever for each operator. the other practical considerations for using an MG does not really apply ingame. (you will know what I mean when you ever get to slug a 100 rounds drum mag on an assault rifle for real.)

Edited December 21, 2009 by jasonnoguchi

[Nutlink 10]

Or they could just up the weight of the drum mags to compensate for the weight difference between the two. Still makes ARs more versatile, but definitely bridges the gap.

[mcvittees 0]

@Johan, in my 8 years in SF and firing off hundreds of rounds in a single day and often quite a chunk of it in a single contact, i have never in my life seen a molten assault rifle. The deal about overheated barrels is simply inaccuracy and jamming and that is why mggunners carry spare barrels. Not because the barrel will melt. In fact, even with this logic, i have NEVER once seen my squad mate in real life change barrels no matter how heated a contact is. Also, I have personally manned and practise with 50 cal MG and squeezed off another few hundred rounds without the need for barrel changing at all. It does seem like all these barrel overheating is just too exaggerated here. Its really not that big a deal in RL and in RL, the reason MG stay relevant in a squad is simply because of its huge magazine capacity, fulfilling a perfect role for suppressive fire. I would agree that to balance it out, assualt rifles in ACE should be given only 1 drum mag or none at all.

Eight years special forces huh? Nice, we need more experts input here.

Edited December 21, 2009 by mcvittees
increased sarcasm

[jasonnoguchi 11]

@Bota, seriously, i don't think they should up the weight. Drum mags actually weigh lesser than the box mag (from my personal experience, no figures to back that up). The problem Johan was trying to bring across is that assault rifles should not become psuedo MGs simply by slapping on a drum mag with no penalties as that would render MGs obsolete in the game. That led me to think about why that isn't done that way in RL and from my personal experience, its really the versatility and speed that an assault operator needs as drum mags are really cumbersome and that there really are no vests made to carry a lot of drum mags unless you wear an MG gunner vest, which will introduce severe constraints on what you need to carry as an assaulter along with severe loss of agility.

However, all that doesn't seem to be able to be factored into the game unless an assault rifle with a drum mag suffers severe sway in order to simulate cumber but that won't be realistic either because cumber doesn't show up that way in RL. Since we cannot stop that issue that way and that introducing weapon breaking is too extreme in my opinion, then the best solution should be to simply not allow drum mags on assault rifles or limit to carrying only 1 drum mag so they don't become psuedo MG gunners.

---------- Post added at 11:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 AM ----------

@Mcvittees, since you obviously think I am bullshit, I shall not contribute to this post any more. This will be my final post on this issue.

[Murklor 10]

- The M249 does not weigh 10kg (the M60 does).

- 200 rounds beat the snot out of 100 rounds every day of the week.

- Its accuracy when prone is VASTLY superior to assault rifles (scoped or not). Even the XM8 SAW (which is a 100 round assault rifle with ACOG scope) doesnt even come close to its accuracy although you see a bit better. But that's what you got the binoculars for, one of the most underused items in the game. I can burst kill enemies at sniper range with binoculars.

I play automatic rifleman with the M249 almost all the time (did it in vanilla and do it in ACE2). Why? Because the M240/MK48/M60 is just too heavy to lug around alone (50kg with any kind of decent ammo count vs around 30kg with the M249 maxed). The Para with scope? A cool weapon, but far too innaccurate. Good in cities but worthless at range despite the scope.

Against infantry, I am superior to any sniper or rifleman. All I need is a muzzle flash and I can lay waste to entire squads in seconds. An assault rifle doesnt even come close. With a light machinegun you can also take out any wheeled vehicle (even armoured). Of course the assault rifle will always be more versetile and lighter, that's sort of the point. The ability to lay down a brutal covering fire isnt too shabby either, although all my covering fire has a tendancy to end up killing the enemy for some reason.

So no... I dont agree with anything in the OP. The M249 is light with alot of power behind it. In ACE2 you can even carry the M249+AT4 for minimal extra weight giving it an edge against armor.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Murklor

[JSj 12]

The problem Johan was trying to bring across is that assault rifles should not become psuedo MGs simply by slapping on a drum mag with no penalties as that would render MGs obsolete in the game.

Exactly!

That led me to think about why that isn't done that way in RL and from my personal experience, its really the versatility and speed that an assault operator needs

And the truth is that it is because of what I've been trying to say. You can easily put a bipod and the M249 feed system with 200 round boxes on an M4/M16. This weapon would be much lighter than a M249

But it could not replace the M249, as it would be incapable of sustained fire. An M249 can put thousands of rounds downrange in a very short time, as long as you keep changing out the barrel to let it cool off. The hypothetical assault rifle using 200 round boxes would heat up very fast and probably couldn't even manage much more than 500 rounds before it suffered a major failure due to overheating.

@ Murklor, the M249 weighs about 10 kg loaded. I gave the loaded weight as that is the way they are carried in combat.

[stgn 39]

The barrel will melt(turn white hot) at some point this will cause gravity and other pressure on the barrel to bend the barrel and make it rupture from the hot gases inside. There are documented cases of US Special Forces doing just that with the M4A1, which lead to the introduction of a Heavy barrel for the carbine. In 1996 the US army tested M16A2 and M4A1 and found that M16 barrels is destroyed around 490 rounds and M4 barrels around 540-600(continuous full auto fire from 30rd magazines, in a lab environment), the test report is available on line you can look it up if you like

Fire to destruction Test 5.56mm M4A1 carbine and M16A2 rifle Barrels

STGN

[JSj 12]

Thank you STGN, that nicely illustrates my point. Barrel overheating (and barrel changes on machine guns) needs to be implemented in the game, because in RL you can not use an assault rifle as a machine gun, so you shouldn't be able to do this in the game.

EDIT:

Oh, and in case you are thinking, "but these were old M4A1 and M16A2, they have heavy barrels now as stated in the text". Yes, models with heavier barrels (I don't know if all rifles have that now?) will be more heat resistant. So these numbers might be a little bit higher for some models, but they are still not machine guns and will not be able to fire thousands of rounds continously like a machine gun can do.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Johan S

[JSj 12]

After thinking about it, with apologies to jason, you were right. It's just that we were talking about two different things. You are right, the reason the RL military don't use 100 or 200 round magazines for assault rifles is just what you said: they are cumbersome and difficult to carry. They are not practical for the rifleman to use during an assault.

But what we are discussing here is really another matter. Why don't the military get rid of their heavy and bulky M249s, put a bipod and 200 round boxes on an M4/M16 and give this to the squad machine gunner? Such a weapon would be impractical for the average rifleman (for the reasons given above), but would be easier for a machine gunner to carry than the M249. And that is the point I'm making, such a weapon would overheat too quickly and it would not be capable of sustained continous fire. For that you need a machine gun, so the M249 stays.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Johan S

[jasonnoguchi 11]

@Johan, I must agree with you there. If hypothetically, a decision is to be made to replace an MG with an M4 on steroid, it won't work because of all the mechanical limitations that you have pointed out. The extreme condition an assault rifle can tolerate is much lower than the extremities that you can push a true blue MG to. In fact, during my tour, I have never chanced across a single heavy barrel carbine and I doubt it would be much value.

Sorry for this post even after declaring final post. Over and Out. :)

p/s no apologies needed buddy, you were right, we were talking about different things. :) Apologies if I sounded harsh. :)

Edited December 21, 2009 by jasonnoguchi

[sic-disaster 311]

Because the M249 is freaking sexy? :D

[JSj 12]

It is, but in real life you need more than that in order to buy, test and issue a new weapon into the military. It will not be procured if it does not have a reason for existence.

And the M249s reason for existence is its sustained fire capability, which the assault rifle does not have. So it would be nice if the machine gun was not made obsolete in the game because the real life limitations are not modelled. The game should be updated to include barrel overheating and machine gun barrel changing.

I'm looking forward to see how overheating is implemented in ACE 2.

[An Fiach 10]

The point of squad automatic weapons is to lay down lead. An M4 could never keep up with a cyclic MG

[Murklor 10]

So it would be nice if the machine gun was not made obsolete in the game because the real life limitations are not modelled.

But it is not made obsolete.

Have you even tried the machineguns ingame vs the rifles?

Try placing yourself at the west end of the Utes runway and fire at the bottom of the east hill. With an M4, your recoil will cause the rifle to rise almost the entire length of the hill. Rounds go all over the place. Do the same with an M249 and see the difference. It has almost no recoil and rounds actually go where you place your aim (ignoring drop for all types of weapons of course).

The best way to see the difference is to take the scoped M240 and watch how it behaves. The M240/M249 accuracy is about the same, with the M240 being slightly more accurate I believe.

There is little point to laying 100 full auto M4 shots downrange if they hit nothing. You can barely even suppress enemies because your rounds dont land close enough.

[das attorney 858]

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Agreed, the M249 has some nice weight to it and is easier to lay down accurate sustained fire at range.

Re: Overheating side effects;

Cook-offs are a major factor.

Rifling and barrel sleeve/jacket expand and contract at different rates, which could peel them apart and break it way before it melts.

If you have an assault rifle and untold drum magazines, you're probably the fool in this video anyway. Edited December 21, 2009 by Das Attorney