Mid east

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 18 2002,17:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">oligo- just to give u a sense of space- u can shoot a 120 mortar from Tul-karem and hit the med sea!

u can use a pistol to hit a pal-village from my window!

this is not europe and Alland or whatever.<span id='postcolor'>

Okay okay. I don't know about europe in general, but in Finland the distances are enormous and only a handful of people live here. But:

I served in the mortar troops so I know such things as counterbattery radars exist and I'm sure IDF has a bunch of those. Those babies can pinpoint the firing arty piece before the shells have landed. So if somebody fires a 120mm mortar from Tul-karem, you fire a five company artillery firestorm back to the location. Case closed.

And what comes to somebody firing a pistol, a HMG or an AT rocket over the border, you fire back with tanks.

It's not a paradise, I know, but it is a lot better than having a pal walk into a grocery store and blow it up. Which is impossible if you give them their WB and Gaza, close the borders and don't let anybody in without a visa.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 18 2002,21:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">nice fairytale.<span id='postcolor'>

Well aren't you the master of argumentation. Let me return the favour: Your post is just like the buzzing of flies to me, ignored.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 18 2002,21:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's all nice and well, but that won't give any guarantees that the suicide bombings and other terrorist acts will stop.<span id='postcolor'>

They'll stop if they don't let any arabs and especially palis into Israel at all. Let them brew in their new palestinian state. Simple.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 18 2002,21:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And I'll be saying:

Kuka helvitti heitti mustikkoita?!?

.. because it's the only thing I know in Finish <span id='postcolor'>

Maybe Finland joining Sweden wouldn't be so bad after all. We could be a superpower again and us Finns could fight all your wars like before.

[nordin dk 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 19 2002,08:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"You swedish people better stop with the occupationist ideas, or we'll take back Skĺne, Halland & Blekinge"

Please, take us!! We want cheaper beer!! Lower taxes!! And pölse!!<span id='postcolor'>

Of course you do

Křbenhavn og Malmö er nćsten vokset sammen nu alligevel.

Wait a minute...do we have lower taxes?

Then why is mine so high

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 19 2002,08:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"You swedish people better stop with the occupationist ideas, or we'll take back Skĺne, Halland & Blekinge"

Please, take us!! We want cheaper beer!! Lower taxes!! And pölse!!<span id='postcolor'>

Don't listen to him! Yes, we do want cheaper beer, and we shall get it, not by surrendering our territory, but by taking.. eh, I mean 'liberating' territory (I'm looking at you Denmark, Finland, Norway, Russia, USA....!.

Nordin:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You swedish people better stop with the occupationist ideas, or we'll take back Skĺne, Halland & Blekinge

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, loosing them still hurts doesnt it Then just guess how you would feel without Jylland

[nordin dk 0]

I could live without Jylland

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

OUCH!!! I found an article which shows the terrible truth about Sharon. No it is not a questionable source, it is an interview held on the 17.12.1982 in the DAVAR.And I must say I am slightly shocked! I never read long posts cause they often are a waste of time. But this interview is troubeling the german press now for days.

READ IT; I KNOW IT IS LONG; BUT BELIEVE ME I IT IS WORTH EVERY LINE!

The following is a reprint of an interview with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon by Amos Oz as originally published in the Israeli daily Davar on 17 December 1982. The man referred to as C. is Sharon.  

Please note: The article is kept for archive purposes, but that the identity of the interviewee has since come into doubt (see errata at the end).

"You can call me anything you like. Call me a monster or a murderer. Just note that I don't hate Arabs. On the contrary. Personally, I am much more at ease with them, and especially with the Bedouin, than with Jews. Those Arabs we haven't yet spoilt are proud people, they are irrational, cruel and generous. It's the Yids that are all twisted. In order to straighten them out you have to first bend them sharply the other way. That, in brief, is my whole ideology.

"Call Israel by any name you like, call it a Judeo-Nazi state as does Leibowitz. Why not? Better a live Judeo-Nazi than a dead saint. I don't care whether I am like Ghadafi. I am not after the admiration of the gentiles. I don't need their love. I don't need to be loved by Jews like you either. I have to live, and I intend to ensure that my children will live as well. With or without the blessing of the Pope and the other religious leaders from the New York Times. I will destroy anyone who will raise a hand against my children, I will destroy him and his children, with or without our famous purity of arms. I don't care if he is Christian, Muslim, Jewish or pagan. History teaches us that he who won't kill will be killed by others. That is an iron law.  

"Even if you'll prove to me by mathematical means that the present war in Lebanon is a dirty immoral war, I don't care. Moreover, even if you will prove to me that we have not achieved and will not achieve any of our aims in Lebanon, that we will neither create a friendly regime in Lebanon nor destroy the Syrians or even the PLO, even then I don't care. It was still worth it. Even if Galilee is shelled again by Katyushas in a year's time, I don't really care. We shall start another war, kill and destroy more and more , until they will have had enough. And do you know why it is all worth it? Because it seems that this war has made us more unpopular among the so-called civilised world.

"We'll hear no more of that nonsense about the unique Jewish morality, the moral lessons of the holocaust or about the Jews who were supposed to have emerged from the gas chambers pure and virtuous. No more of that. The destruction of Eyn Hilwe (and it's a pity we did not wipe out that hornet's nest completely!, the healthy bombardment of Beirut and that tiny massacre (can you call 500 Arabs a massacre?) in their camps which we should have committed with our own delicate hands rather than let the Phalangists do it, all these good deeds finally killed the bullshit talk about a unique people and of being a light upon the nations. No more uniqueness and no more sweetness and light. Good riddance."

" I personally don't want to be any better than Khomeini or Brezhnev or Ghadafi or Assad or Mrs. Thatcher, or even Harry Truman who killed half a million Japanese with two fine bombs . I only want to be smarter than they are, quicker and more efficient, not better or more beautiful than they are. Tell me, do the baddies of this world have a bad time? If anyone tries to touch them, the evil men cut his hands and legs off. They hunt and catch whatever they feel like eating. They don't suffer from indigestion and are not punished by Heaven. I want Israel to join that club. Maybe the world will then at last begin to fear me instead of feeling sorry for me . Maybe they will start to tremble, to fear my madness instead of admiring my nobility. Thank god for that. Let them tremble, let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a wild country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go crazy if one of our children is murdered - just one! That we might go wild and burn all the oil fields in the Middle East! If anything would happen to your child, god forbid, you would talk like I do. Let them be aware in Washington, Moscow, Damascus and China that if one of our ambassadors is shot, or even a consul or the most junior embassy official, we might start World War Three just like that !"

......We are talking while sitting on the balcony of the pretty country house belonging to C. which is situated in a prosperous Moshav. To the west we see a burning sunset and there is a scent of fruit trees in the air. We are being served iced coffee in tall glasses. C. is about fifty years old. He is a man well known for his (military) actions. He is a strong, heavy figure wearing shorts but no shirt. His body is tanned a metallic bronze shade, the colour of a blond man living in the sun. He puts his hairy legs on the table and his hands on the chair. There is a scar on his neck. His eyes wander over his plantations. He spells out his ideology in a voice made hoarse by too much smoking:

"Let me tell me [sic] what is the most important thing, the sweetest fruit of the war in Lebanon: It is that now they don't just hate Israel. Thanks to us, they now also hate all those Feinschmecker Jews in Paris, London, New York, Frankfurt and Montreal, in all their holes. At last they hate all these nice Yids, who say they are different from us, that they are not Israeli thugs, that they are different Jews, clean and decent. Just like the assimilated Jew in Vienna and Berlin begged the anti-Semite not to confuse him with the screaming, stinking Ostjude, who had smuggled himself into that cultural environment out of the dirty ghettos of Ukraine and Poland. It won't help them, those clean Yids, just as it did not help them in Vienna and Berlin. Let them shout that they condemn Israel, that they are all right, that they did not want and don't want to hurt a fly, that they always prefer being slaughtered to fighting, that they have taken it upon themselves to teach the gentiles how to be good Christians by always turning the other cheek. It won't do them any good. Now they are getting it there because of us, and I am telling you, it is a pleasure to watch.

"They are the same Yids who persuaded the gentiles to capitulate to the bastards in Vietnam, to give it in to Khomeini, to Brezhnev, to feel sorry for Sheikh Yamani because of his tough childhood, to make love not war. Or rather, to do neither, and instead write a thesis on love and war. We are through with all that. The Yid has been rejected, not only did he crucify Jesus, but he also crucified Arafat in Sabra and Shatila. They are being identified with us and that's a good thing! Their cemeteries are being desecrated, their synagogues are set on fire, all their old nicknames are being revived, they are being expelled from the best clubs, people shoot into their ethnic restaurants murdering small children, forcing them to remove any sign showing them to be Jews, forcing them to move and change their profession.

"Soon their palaces will be smeared with the slogan: Yids, go to Palestine! And you know what? They will go to Palestine because they will have no other choice! All this is a bonus we received from the Lebanese war. Tell me, wasn't it worth it? "Soon we will hit on good times. The Jews will start arriving, the Israelis will stop emigrating and those who already emigrated will return. Those who had chosen assimilation will finally understand that it won't help them to try and be the conscience of the world. The 'conscience of the world' will have to understand through its arse what it could not get into its head. The gentiles have always felt sick of the Yids and their conscience, and now the Yids will have only one option: to come home, all of them, fast, to install thick steel doors, to build a strong fence, to have submachine guns positioned at every corner of their fence here and to fight like devils against anyone who dares to make a sound in this region. And if anyone even raises his hand against us we'll take away half his land and burn the other half, including the oil. We might use nuclear arms. We'll go on until he no longer feels like it...

"...You probably want to know whether I am not afraid of the masses of Yids coming here to escape anti-semitism smearing us with their olive oil until we go all soft like them. Listen, history is funny in that way, there is a dialectic here, irony. Who was it who expanded the state of Israel almost up the boundaries of the kingdom of King David? Who expanded the state until it covered the area from Mount Hermon to Raz Muhammad? Levi Eshkol. Of all people, it was that follower of Gordon, that softie, that old woman. Who, on the other hand, is about to push us back into the walls of the ghetto? Who gave up all of Sinai in order to retain a civilised image? Beitar's governor in Poland, that proud man Menahem Begin. So you can never tell. I only know one thing for sure: as long as you are fighting for your life all is permitted, even to drive out all the Arabs from the West Bank, everything.

"Leibowitz is right, we are Judeo-Nazis, and why not? Listen, a people that gave itself up to be slaughtered, a people that let soap to be made of its children and lamp shades from the skin of its women is a worse criminal than its murderers. Worse than the Nazis...If your nice civilised parents had come here in time instead of writing books about the love for humanity and singing Hear O Israel on the way to the gas chambers, now don't be shocked, if they instead had killed six million Arabs here or even one million, what would have happened? Sure, two or three nasty pages would have been written in the history books, we would have been called all sorts of names, but we could be here today as a people of 25 million!

"Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don't care. And I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. Then you can spruce up your Jewish conscience and enter the respectable club of civilised nations, nations that are large and healthy. What you lot don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it. True, it could have been finished in 1948, but you interfered, you stopped it. And all this because of the Jewishness in your souls, because of your Diaspora mentality. For the Jews don't grasp things quickly. If you open your eyes and look around the world you will see that darkness is falling again. And we know what happens to a Jew who stays out in the dark. So I am glad that this small war in Lebanon frightened the Yids. Let them be afraid, let them suffer. They should hurry home before it gets really dark. So I am an anti-Semite ? Fine. So don't quote me, quote Lilienblum instead [an early Russian Zionist - ed.]. There is no need to quote an anti-Semite. Quote Lilienblum, and he is definitely not an anti-Semite, there is even a street in Tel Aviv named after him. (C. quotes from a small notebook that was lying on his table when I arrived:)

'Is all that is happening not a clear sign that our forefathers and ourselves...wanted and still want to be disgraced? That we enjoy living like gypsies.' That's Lilienblum. Not me. Believe me. I went through the Zionist literature, I can prove what I say.

"And you can write that I am disgrace to humanity, I don't mind, on the contrary. Let's make a deal: I will do all I can to expel the Arabs from here, I will do all I can to increase anti-semitism, and you will write poems and essays about the misery of the Arabs and be prepared to absorb the Yids I will force to flee to this country and teach them to be a light unto the gentiles. How about it ?"

It was there that I stopped C.'s monologue for a moment and expressed the thought passing through my mind, perhaps more for myself than for my host. Was it possible that Hitler had not only hurt the Jews but also poisoned their minds? Had that poison sunk in and was still active? But not even that idea could cause C. to protest or raise his voice. After all, he said to have never shouted under stress, even during the famous operations his name is associated with.  

Errata 18th April 2002

We picked up the interview and checked as far as possible that it was authentic; the interview was published in the Davar paper as stated, and we took the assurances of people who know Amos Oz, the journalist who conducted the interview, that the person identified as "C" was Ariel Sharon. There has since been a lively discussion that some of the descriptions of the interviewee do not fit with Sharon, even though the opinions mentioned match his thinking. Many journalists took the claim that it was Sharon at face value, as did for example the editor of Rocky Mountain News who just issued the following statement:

[scout 0]

here is one from 1998 about "jewish control of the media" written by a newsletter in the PA control ofcourse by the PA:

Wherever they have lived, Jews have been subject to hatred because of their monopoly over most of the economic resources on which people live. In 'The Merchant of Venice’, a play written by the English poet Shakespeare, the merchant Shylock epitomizes the avaricious Jew. Shylock is fraudulent, villainous and spiteful. This serves as the best example [of the hatred of Jews]. How, then, did the Jews manage to brainwash American and European public opinion? How did the image [of Jews] become that of the wise, courageous, ingenious, dexterous, and ambitiously innovative people?!

"One is inevitably led to believe that the success of the Jews has not been a mere coincidence. It resulted from long and arduous years of planning, which preceded their cunning control of the world’s media. In a speech delivered in Prague in 1869, the Jewish Rabbi Yeshurun expressed this Jewish interest in the media, when he said: 'If gold is our first means to control the world, then the press should be our second one.'

"The first [Zionist] Congress, held in Basle in 1897, marked an ominous turning point, because the participants expressed their [desire] to implement a criminal plot to set up the State of 'Israel'. They unanimously agreed that, unless complete control over the media, and the press in particular, is achieved, unless they fully subdue the press, so as to deny their enemies even one medium of expression, and unless they themselves act as filters of information in society, such a state [israel] would not reach fruition.

"Nonetheless, the Jews could not change their obscene image until the turn of the century, because a number of Western nations fought against Zionist activities -- particularly the Americans, who were busy consolidating their Federation. [The Americans] were alarmed at the prospect of Jewish control over the American economy and foreign policy. Later, Jews managed to take control of much of America's media, as well as media in Europe and elsewhere. Thus, they managed, to some extent, to change the image of Jews as ugly and vile in the eyes of the world. They proved particularly successful in America and Europe.

"When Nazi persecution of the Jews began, the winds began blowing in their favor. What Hitler did to the Jews actually exposed the Jewish plot. World public opinion, manipulated by the Jews, took advantage of these [persecutions], disseminating stories about a collective massacre. They concocted horrible stories of gas chambers which Hitler, they claimed, used to burn them alive. The press overflowed with pictures of Jews being gunned down by Hitler’s machine guns or being pushed into gas chambers. The [press] focused on [suffering] women, children and elderly people in order to rouse empathy and claim reparations, donations, and grants from around the world."

"The truth is that such persecution was a malicious fabrication by the Jews. It is a myth which they named 'The Holocaust' in order to rouse empathy. Credible historians challenge this Jewish [myth], calling for [more] persuasive evidence to be presented. The Los Angeles Historical Society declared that it would grant US$50,000 to anyone who could prove Jews had been gassed to death. Jews exerted intense pressure and cast accusations of anti-Semitism everywhere in order to silence this challenge. Even if Hitler's onslaught facilitated the persecution of Jews to some degree, Jews certainly benefited from its aftermath…"

"A look at the number of news agencies, newspapers, magazines, and TV networks under Jewish control demonstrates how influential they are in the mass media. They control several French and British newspapers, including the [London] Times through its owner, the Australian-based Jewish [magnate], Rupert Murdoch. Murdoch also owns three magazines that specialize in spreading prostitution. Jews have managed to monopolize the British chattering classes. In addition to The Times, they have taken over The Daily Express, Daily Mail and The Observer, as well as scores of other journals. In America, [Jews control] The New York Times, The New York Post, The Washington Post, The New York Magazine, The Business Week, etc. In France, [they own] Nouveaux Cahiers, L'Express, Le Figaro, Le Cotidiene de Paris and France Soir. In other Western countries, like Australia, they also own their fair share of the media, including the world's leading TV networks. ABC, NBC, CBS, and many more are all controlled by Jews."

"It is evident that Jewish control over mass media has been harnessed to put a pleasant face on the vile image of Jews, while at the same time vilifying Arabs. This is meant to persuade world public opinion that Arabs are the historic enemies of Christian culture, focusing on the defeat of the Crusaders in the Battle of Hittin and their consequent expulsion from Palestine. Furthermore, Jews spread prostitution as a means of plunging the world into decadence, abomination, and corruption…."

Damn where is my Whip? i need to teach the BBC what is to step put of line!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Scout, my question now of course is: did you read the interview with sharon, I must say I was shocked and he clearly states the intentions he had and has. They are terrifying!   and they realy (i dont like to say that) remind me of lines in the famous german book of the 1940ies. The similarities are there, whether you question them or not! And dont go out of my way with counterattacks. I mean if you dont see this, how dangerous this man is, then I dont know what is gonna open your eyes?

[scout 0]

this is interview with person "C", allegdly Sharon, it maybe as well Cahana, some ppl say its sharon some say it isnt.

its disturbing me that u automaticlly accepted its sharon without any hesitation.

besides the point: u should be more disturbed that he came to power because thats a sign of the desperation israeli ppl came into after 8 years of a "peace" process. all that says is that more then 60% of ppl in israel have lost trust in Arafat and the PA, and any chance of peace! try to imagine what would bring more then 60% of the public to change views do dramaticly! what horrors they suffered, what the so called partner have done to change from left wing to such a right wing leader!

thats a real achievement Arafat got himself, no?

[scout 0]

here is a letter written by Arafat to a family of a suicide bomber in june 2001 BEFORE the second Intifada had started, talking about condoning terrorism:

"The album, a telltale collection of condolence letters. This one here from the Hamas. But much more surprising for us, there is also a letter from Arafat. It was a heroic deed, he lets his embassy in Jordan write to the family. To turn one’s body into a bomb is the best example of willingness to make a sacrifice. Signed Yasser Arafat. [is] the assassin, the great role model for the President of Palestine, as well?"

Segments from the text of the letter as visible from the German TV report*:

In English

Embassy of the State of Palestine

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan

Amman

The emblem of the embassy with the Al-Aqsa Mosque and a map of Palestine [including what is now Israel]

In Arabic

To the brothers, the family of Al-Hotary and the Noble People of Qalqilya,

With hearts that believe in Allah's will and predetermination, we have received the news about the martyrdom of the martyr…. Al-Hotary, the son of Palestine, whose noble soul ascended to… in order to rest in Allah's Kingdom, together with the Prophets, the men of virtue, and the martyrs. The heroic martyrdom operation … who turned his body into bombs … the model of manhood and sacrifice for the sake of Allah and the homeland…

[unclear lines] that the martyr be… in Allah's mercy and will… Allah's grace and satisfaction… will inspire all members of his family… The best of condolences. To Allah we belong and to him we return back [Koran]

Yasser Arafat, the President of the State of Palestine

Chairman of the Executive Committee of the PLO

Chairman of the Palestinian National Authority

[stamp Emblem]

what do u say? i'll try to bring more.

but thats our partner, not 20 years ago, in midst of fighting but right here right now!

[scout 0]

here is a speech form a PA minister saying plainly: the second Intifada WASNT started because of Sharons visit to mount temple!

The Palestinian people is the strong half of the international equation. It is the secret code and the key to any stability and peace not only in the Middle East, but in the world..."

"You can be sure that your stay here is temporary. We will not allow any force to raise any issue detrimental to the Right of Return to Palestine. I congratulate President Emil Lahud who has said countless times that there will be no solution for the Palestinians that does not include their return to Palestine. To him we respond: 'Yes.' This position has the consensus of the Palestinian people and the Palestinian leadership... We emphasize that the Palestinian leadership will not sign a peace agreement without guaranteeing Palestinian rights, and first and foremost the Right of Return, the liberation of Jerusalem and its return to full Palestinian sovereignty. These are our fundamental Palestinian principles, to which we hold fast and for which we fight."

"The Al-Aqsa Intifada emphasizes these principles and axioms. Whoever thinks that the Intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon's visit to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, is wrong, even if this visit was the straw that broke the back of the Palestinian people. This Intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat's return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton. [Arafat] remained steadfast and challenged [Clinton]. He rejected the American terms and he did it in the heart of the US."

"My visit here in South Lebanon is a clear message to the Zionist enemy. We say: Just as the national and Islamic Resistance in South Lebanon taught [israel] a lesson and made it withdraw humiliated and battered, so shall [israel] learn a lesson from the Palestinian Resistance in Palestine. The Palestinian Resistance will strike in Tel-Aviv, in Ashkelon, in Jerusalem, and in every inch of the land of natural Palestine. Israel will not have a single quiet night. There will be no security in the heart of Israel...."

"The Palestinian people are patient, but when they take action - no one can stop them. When the Palestinian people are seized with rage, the world [becomes] familiar with it."

"We say to the Zionist enemy and to the entire world: 'We will return to the early days of the PLO, to the sixties and seventies; 'the Fatah Hawks' will return, as will the ''Izz Al-Din Al-Qassam Brigades' [the military wing of the Hamas] and the 'Red Eagles' [the military arm of the 'Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine'].' A new stage will continue until the rights are returned to their owners... we will strike whoever blames us for the failure of the negotiations, because President Yasser Arafat's patience was greater than Job's. Arafat has become the Job of the twentieth century, because of what the US and Israel lay on him..."[2]

[scout 0]

Oh , oh ! this one is good! an interview of an palestinian Architect of the Oslo agreements:

On his way to Kuwait, where he later died of a heart attack, Faysal Al-Husseini gave what turned out to be his last interview to the Egyptian (Nasserite) daily, 'Al-Arabi'. Following are excerpts from the interview with reporter Shafiq Ahmad Ali:[1]

The Oslo Accords: A Trojan Horse

Q: "What is happening now, unfortunately, is a natural consequence of Arafat's signing the Oslo Accords which did not explicitly state that the settlements should be removed, or even [their construction] halted…and did not explicitly determine the future of Jerusalem and the right of return…but - among other mistakes you recently admit - it did explicitly state that the PA must confiscate weapons from Palestinian civilians…"

A: "Following the signing of the Oslo Accords… I said three things:

First, following a long period of "pregnancy" we brought a child into the world [the Oslo Accords] who is smaller, weaker, and uglier than what we had hoped for. However, despite it all, this is still our child, and we must nurture, strengthen and develop it

so that he is able to stand on his own two feet." "Second, we are the Jews of the 21st Century. Meaning, we the Palestinians will be the Jews of the early [previous] century. They infiltrated our country using various methods; using all kinds of passports, and they suffered greatly in the process. They even had to face humiliation but they did it all for one goal: To enter our country and root themselves in it prior to our expulsion out of it. We must act in the same way they did. [We must] return [to the land], settle it, and develop new roots in our land from where we were expelled; whatever the price may be."

"Third, the [ancient] Greek Army was unable to break into Troy due to [internal] disputes and disagreements [among themselves]. The Greek forces started retreating one after the other, and the Greek king ended up facing the walls of Troy all by himself, and he too suffered from illnesses and [internal] disputes, and ended up leading a failed assault on Troy's walls."

"[Following these events] the people of Troy climbed on top of the walls of their city and could not find any traces of the Greek army, except for a giant wooden horse. They cheered and celebrated thinking that the Greek troops were routed, and while retreating, they left a harmless wooden horse as spoils of war. So they opened the gates of the city and brought in the wooden horse. We all know what happened next."

"Had the U.S. and Israel not realized, before Oslo, that all that was left of the Palestinian National movement and the Pan-Arab movement was a wooden horse called Arafat or the PLO, they would never have opened their fortified gates and let it inside their walls."

"Despite the fact that we entered these walls in order to build, unlike the Greeks who entered in order to destroy, I now tell you all, all those to whom I spoke in a secret meeting during the days of Oslo: 'Climb into the horse and don't question what type of material the horse is made of. Climb into the horse, and we shall transform your climbing into that horse into a beginning of a building era rather than an era of the end of hope."'

"And indeed, there are those who climbed unto the horse and are [now] inside [the PA territory] whether they supported the Oslo Accords or not."

Q: "But the horse began to ignore criticism from the people, both from those who supported Oslo and those who opposed it. [it ignored] criticism about the true democracy that should lead the horse and about the horse's corruption."

A: "Your words remind me of the famous meeting we had with all the Palestinian factions three years following Arafat and the PLO's return to Gaza…the debate revolved around the same issues you are raising – i.e., democracy, corruption, etc." "In that meeting – and those who attended are still alive and can attest to it – I asked to speak. I told everyone: Three years ago I said 'Climb into the horse' and everyone entered into the horse and the horse entered into the walled-in [area]. Now, the time has come for us to say: 'Come out of the horse and start working. Don’t stay inside the horse and don't waist time and energy while you are inside the horse arguing whether this was a good horse or not. Look, it is thanks to this horse that you were able to get into the walled-in city."'

"So come down out of the horse and start working for the goal for which you entered the horse to begin with. In my opinion, the Intifada itself is the coming down out of the horse. Rather than getting into the old arguments…this effort [the Intifada] could have been much better, broader, and more significant had we made it clearer to ourselves that the Oslo agreement, or any other agreement, is just a temporary procedure, or just a step towards something bigger…"

"Praise Allah, by now we have all come out of the horse, those who were with Arafat and those from the opposition. Personally, I never had any complaints regarding the fact that they entered the horse while being opposed to it. However, I would have complaints had they stayed inside the horse and never came out of it. Now that we all came out of the horse, I ask of you and of all journalists to lay aside all the analyses of past events, all the old disputes, and judge people on the basis of what they are actually doing now…our slogan from now on should be "The Intifada is always right…"''

The Strategic Goal: A State from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea

Q: "What are the borders of the Palestinian state you are referring to, and what kind of 'Jerusalem' would you accept as the capital of your state?" A: "With this question you are dragging me into talking about what we refer to as our "strategic" goals and our "political" goals, or the phased goals. The "strategic" goals are the "higher goals," the "long-term goals," or the "unwavering goals," the goals that are based on solid Pan-Arab historic rights and principles. Whereas the "political" goals are those goals which were set for a temporary timeframe, considering the [constraints of] the existing international system, the balance of power, our own abilities, and other considerations which "vary" from time to time."

"When we are asking all the Palestinian forces and factions to look at the Oslo Agreement and at other agreements as "temporary" procedures, or phased goals, this means that we are ambushing the Israelis and cheating them. However, the truth is that we are doing exactly what they are doing. The proof for that is that they are aware of, and are not trying to hide, the fact that there is nothing that unites them more around the territory which extends from the Nile to the Euphrates, than their slogan, which was taken from the Torah, and reads: 'These are the borders of the greater land of Israel.'"

"If, for some reason, they had to temporarily declare their state over "a part" of the greater land of Israel, they would publicly declare that this is their "political" strategy, which they will have to temporarily accept due to international circumstances. On the other hand, their "higher strategy" is always "The Greater Land of Israel."

"We are [acting] exactly like them. In 1947, in accordance with [the UN] Partition Plan, they decided to declare statehood on 55% of the land of Palestine, which they later increased to 78% during the War of 1948, and then again [increased it] to 100% during the War of 1967. Despite all that, they never attempted to make secret of their long-term goal, which is "Greater Israel" from the Nile to the Euphrates. Similarly, if we agree to declare our state over what is now only 22% of Palestine, meaning the West Bank and Gaza – our ultimate goal is [still] the liberation of all historical Palestine from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, even if this means that the conflict will last for another thousand years or for many generations."

"In short, we are exactly like they are. We distinguish the strategic, long-term goals from the political phased goals, which we are compelled to temporarily accept due to international pressure. If you are asking me as a Pan-Arab nationalist what are the Palestinian borders according to the higher strategy, I will immediately reply: "From the river to the sea." Palestine in its entirety is an Arab land, the land of the Arab nation, a land no one can sell or buy, and it is impossible to remain silent while someone is stealing it, even if this requires time and even [if it means paying] a high price."

"If you are asking me, as a man who belongs to the Islamic faith, my answer is also "From the river to the sea," the entire land is an Islamic Waqf which can not be bought or sold, and it is impossible to remain silent while someone is stealing it …"

"If you are asking me as an ordinary Palestinian, from the "inside" or from the Diaspora, you will get the same answer and without any hesitations. However, what I am able to achieve and live on right now, due to [constraints of] the international system, is not, of course, Palestine "From the river to the sea." In order for us to fulfill all of our dreams regarding Palestine, we must, first of all, wake up and realize where we are standing. On the other hand, if we will continue to behave as if we are still dreaming, we will not find a place to put our feet on..."

"As I once said in the past: our eyes must continue to focus on the higher goal. The real danger is that I might forget [it], and while advancing towards my short-term goal I might turn my back on my long-term goal, which is the liberation of Palestine from the river to the sea…"

there is a lot more from where those came from

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the use of boy-soldiers by the PA:

There is "no truth" to allegations in a proposed Congressional resolution which condemns the Palestinian Authority for using children as soldiers, a senior PA official charged on Wednesday.

Congressman Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.) recently introduced a resolution "condemning the PA and various Palestinian organizations for using children as soldiers and inciting children to acts of violence and war."

Nabil Sha'ath, PA minister of planning and international cooperation, said the Palestinians are left with a "total feeling of frustration and utter despair" by resolutions such as these.

"I don't want to show disrespect for the U.S. Congress, but [it has] no objectivity," Sha'ath said in a telephone interview. Congress is merely responding to the domestic lobby in the U.S., he added.

The House of Representatives draft resolution charges that the PA and other Palestinian organizations have violated the 1989 United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which provides that no person under the age of 15 should take a direct part in hostilities.

Engel charged that the PA has a policy of using children as human shields in battle against heavily armed soldiers and called it "immoral and illegal." He called on PA Chairman Yasser Arafat to put an end to this "deadly practice."

"It is no coincidence that so many children are being killed and injured during the recent violence," Engel said in a press release.

"These children are part of a Palestinian policy to recruit the most vulnerable members of society to become martyrs for the intifada [uprising]," he added.

Approximately 15 percent of those killed since September, 89 were aged 15 and under, according to Palestinian statistics. Another 15 percent of those killed were aged 16 to 18. Many of them died in clashes with troops, while others died primarily in Israeli attacks in retaliation for terrorist actions.

According to the draft resolution, the PA and organizations have violated the U.N. convention by: interspersing children with fighting units during hostilities; using the Palestinian media to encourage children to become martyrs; using an anti-Israeli curriculum in its educational system to endorse fighting against Israel and promote child martyrdom; and sponsoring summer camps last year in which some 25,000 Palestinian children received paramilitary training and were indoctrinated against Israel.

The resolution quotes Arafat as calling Palestinian children "generals of the intifadah," and the Arafat-appointed Mufti of Jerusalem, Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, stating that "the younger the martyr, the greater and the more I respect him."

Among the organizations, which have condemned or called for a halt to such practices are the American Academy of Pediatrics, Doctors Opposed to Child Sacrifice, the Tulkarm (a PA-controlled city) Women's Union and Carol Bellamy, executive director of the United Nations Children's Fund.

Sha'ath challenged the charges and said there was an "utter lack of truth" in the congressional allegations.

"Nobody sends children to die," he said. Such allegations, Sha'ath said, show a "total disregard for human life" and "callousness" on the part of the lawmakers.

Charges such as those contained in the resolution have been well documented in the international media and by watchdog organizations over the last year.

Last Friday, PA television aired a sermon given by Sheik Ibrahim Madhi in Gaza in which he said, "A young man said to me: 'I am 14 years old, and I have four years left before I blow myself up amongst the Jews.' I said to him: 'Oh son, I ask Allah to give you and myself Martyrdom...'"

"Blessings for whoever has raised his sons on the education of Jihad and Martyrdom; blessings for whoever has saved a bullet in order to stick it in a Jew's head," the Sheikh concluded, according to a translation provided by the Middle East Media Research Institute.

Engle urged President Bush to withhold any future aid to the Palestinians unless the PA stops inciting children to violence.

In May, a bill was introduced into the House calling for the imposition of sanctions against the Palestine Liberation Organization or the PA if they fail to comply with commitments they have undertaken in previous agreements with Israel.

One of those PA commitments was to refrain from incitement including hostile propaganda against Israel and to take legal measures against those who spread it.

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this thread is about how pals teach thier children to be "tolerant":

THE noble soul has two goals: death and the desire for it." "He fell as a martyr and irrigated the land with his pure blood." Our Beautiful Language, Palestinian Authority textbook for 11 to 12 year olds.

"From history books and maps to simple grammar exercises and language lessons, Palestinian children are being inculcated with hate for Israel and the Jewish people. You cannot preach peace while you are teaching hate." Senator Hillary Clinton, (D-NY); June 15 2001.

Has Yasser Arafat "opted for terrorism", as Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon charged Monday? The question does not merely address whether the Palestinian leader knew of this weekend's attacks. It also asks: how much has Arafat, in his years building the new government of the Palestinian Authority, promulgated a culture that is fertile ground for suicide terrorists?

More than one might like, is the answer that emerges from a study by Arabic scholar Goetz Nordbruch published on Sunday night by the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri.org), a Washington and Jerusalembased nonprofit organisation dedicated to providing objective translations of the Arab press.

In Narrating Palestinian Nationalism, Nordbruch, a German who is an alumnus of the University of Damascus, reviews school textbooks developed for six year olds and 11 to 12 year olds following the Oslo Accord.

Under agreements following Oslo, both Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organisation were required "to foster mutual understanding and tolerance" and to "abstain from incitement including hostile propaganda".

As a response, 20 new textbooks were developed at the Curriculum Development Centre in Ramallah. The books, Nordbruch concluded, are something of a mixed bag. They do not contain much outright incitement.

But they do three troubling things; teach racialism, "impugn the Jewish character all along to the present day", and most dangerously, nurture "the wish for self-sacrifice and martyrdom among the youth". For starters, there is a chapter in the book for older children entitled The Human Race and its origins.

It seeks to classify humans by racial category, such as Negro, Caucasian or Mongols. "People," the text reads, "are divided into various species which are characterised by specific physical features". Such cranioscopybased, as Nordbruch notes, on long discarded racial theories, validates prejudice in a place where obliterating it should be a primary goal.

Even more disconcerting is the image of the Jewish people.

They are portrayed not so much as a people with a right to their own state the view acknowledged in the Oslo accord but first of all, via a history lesson, as betrayers of Christ and Christians.

Thus a first grade book describes Pontius Pilate's sentencing of Jesus.

There is even an illustration, creepily reminiscent of Medieval Jew-baiting material from Europe, of the famous Judas Kiss.

When it comes to Israel, notes Memri's president Yigal Carmon, the books fail to acknowledge its existence. Maps of Palestine for example include all of what is now Israel; Israel as a state (in any form) and Israeli cities such as Tel Aviv are not depicted. This is a vision of the region more hostile to Israel than anything agreed upon at Oslo.

Worst of all though at least in the context of the weekend bombings is the attention the books dedicate to the notion of martyrdom.

There is an educational unit on "the honourable martyr", Hamza Ibn Abd Al-Muttalib, a contemporary of Mohammed's; the unit is there, the text says, to confirm "the honour of martyrdom and martyrs".

This tradition, notes author Nordbruch, is linked explicitly to the present day, with a chapter on "Prison Literature" (Palestinians in Israeli jails) and a section on the Intifada.

As Nordbruch points out, the material totally disregards the wrong of the violence. What's more, the textbooks challenge young people to participate in Intifada with leading questions such as "What steps can be taken against the expropriation of Palestinian territory?".

Author Nordbruch takes pains to note that these texts are less inflammatory than much of the instruction that goes on in the Arab world. Still, when we ask where Palestinian suicide bombers may learn about martyrdom, the answer has to remain: in school.

Shlaes is a columnist for the Financial Times.

u can read all this and more in memri

[KingBeast 0]

Scout you are guilty of mass mass mass spammage old boy. Your talking to yourself

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sorry i was in a craze i guess, but Albert here really turned me on i guess. i was just trying to show what the other side is doing these days and in the past years

i wont do it again guys, promise

[KingBeast 0]

Im still recovering, havent seen such mighty spammage for a looong time. Couldnt you have just posted links?

Oh and back on topic, as an Israeli, how will you feel if it is eventually revealed that Jenin was the place of a massacre, after all of the justification forattackign Jenin and such.

I ahve spoken to loads of Israelis (no palestinians) and they always have the same answers for everything (no offence)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 20 2002,01:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Im still recovering, havent seen such mighty spammage for a looong time. Couldnt you have just posted links?

Oh and back on topic, as an Israeli, how will you feel if it is eventually revealed that Jenin was the place of a massacre, after all of the justification forattackign Jenin and such.

I ahve spoken to loads of Israelis (no palestinians) and they always have the same answers for everything (no offence)<span id='postcolor'>

I have the impression SCOUT wants to overspam my posting! So it is lost in the crowd of words!

Please KingBeast read my comment on page 84, I post a lot of bullshit (dont we all) but this is realy worth reading. Read the interview and judge yourself!

[scout 0]

well, ive talked to guys who were there, they say they made sure that no civvies would get hurt, altough u cant be 100% sure do you?

these guys have done what most countries wont do, all u've got to do is look at the russian campaign in Chechnya ok?

now lets consider the term massacre: in my view its a pre-mediated execution of civvies. and that wasnt taking place. period. if there was mass executions there would be a whole lot more pal casualties, something like in syria in 1985 in El-Hama (25000 were executed by syrian security forces).

if you dont agree to my terminology, then i'll be glad to answer u on your own terms.

edit 2: there is a link to memri in my before-last post.

edit: Albert, i didnt mean to cover your post, but i wanted to show that EVEN if it was Sharon , a thing that isnt proven, then what the PA does these days dont fall short of the words u quoted and directly responsible for his selection.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

No, sorry Scout, that was very inpolite of me! I didnt mean to call your postings spam! I read every line of it and I am grateful that at least one Israeli (or two) face the discussion. Only arguments and discussions can bring us forward!

My apologies!

[KingBeast 0]

Albert that interview seemed very provocative. I cant imagine any politician in their right mind saying that kind of stuff.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 20 2002,023)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Albert that interview seemed very provocative. I cant imagine any politician in their right mind saying that kind of stuff.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree, it is so provokating that I cant hardly believe it too. But fact is that it is dicussed in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, in DIE ZEIT and in SUDDEUTSCHE ZEITUNG which are the 3 most reputed daily newspaper Germany has. (You dont know the I guess, you got good newspapers yourself in the UK). Right now not many question the origin and authenticity of this interview. I is considered as a trustworthy source!

BTW: Now I am a OP fan too! Got ya! Take this as an indicator of success for the german soccer team for the world-cup. Oh did I forget to hurt the dutch? YOU ARE OUT!!!

[KingBeast 0]

I dont know if you follow the Champions League, but im a liverpool fan